Population control or better use of space?

[elucidate]

I spent my twenties convinced that due to the population issues of the world, it would be unwise to bring any more kids here.

I concede that it may have been mistaken thinking, based on wrong information, and also coupled with the fact that I find crowds really hard to cope with and when I am in a crowd and so many kids and mothers pushing prams pass me by, I get a sense of Agoraphobia, and feel like there are already too many kids here.

I was discussing this issue of population with someone today, and wanted to get other peoples opinions on what they think is the real issue here.

Are we over-populated, or are we merely not utilizing the space we have to the best of our abilities and over consuming so that our resources are dwindling and therefore unable to cope with the number of people we do have here?

I think it's definitely true that we over-consume and we would do well to cut back on that if we want to survive...but as for the population issue, I'm still not totally convinced that it's not a matter of there simply being too many people on this planet!

What are your thoughts?

[Acting Like Godot]

You can google and see some attempts to do the calculations.

If all the people in the world stood shoulder to shoulder, they would only occupy the space of one large city such as L.A. or Hong Kong.

The problem is about management and distribution of resources, not an actual lack of resources.

[ZephyrusX]

I think it is a complex issue that involves overpopulation, over consumption, immigration and migration. Marxists will point out that we can use technology and policy in order to preserve finite resources (food, clean water, forests) and introduce polices meant to preserve fragile ecosystems and species diversification. I think there is some truth to that. I don't think you can overlook overpopulation though. It is more of matter of combining overpopulation with the demographic and social changes that have more of the third world population moving to urban centres and consuming more meat and buying social goods, all of which leads to more expensive food and pollution. Could we mitigate those problems with technology and policy? Yes, but that rests on the premise that we will find effective technologies and policies to do so. I think it is terribly hard to muster the international political will to solve problems like these. Overpopulation is still a problematic factor that we have to address.

[elucidate]

So you also believe there are too many people on this planet?

I ask because the person I spoke to today about this said that there aren't too many people here at all, that it's more about lifestyle and over consumption. I agreed that we over consume and this needs to change.

I wasn't convinced, but I was willing to look at the possibility that it may be a false belief and that really it's just that we aren't utilizing the space we have correctly to house migrants and homeless people, and just generally the growing population.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

You can google and see some attempts to do the calculations.

If all the people in the world stood shoulder to shoulder, they would only occupy the space of one large city such as L.A. or Hong Kong.

The problem is about management and distribution of resources, not an actual lack of resources.

I didn't mean that we lack resources as such, but there are certain resources, like water, for one, which in Australia has become a serious issue...or at least, that is what the media has led most of us to believe.

That's an interesting thing to picture the world's population standing side by side and fitting into a space the size of a small country like Hong Kong.

During my discussion with this person, we talked about how, in the U.S so much food is wasted on a daily basis, while kids starve in third world countries, which is vile. Why isn't more done to at least address this issue of waste and put it to good use?

I know it won't totally solve the problems those people have, but at least it will put good food to good use, instead of to waste.

Are you saying that you don't believe there are too many people here ALG?

[ZephyrusX]

No, I don't believe there are too many people on the planet. It is more like having too many people living a lifestyle that is not very sustainable. That doesn't negate the importance of population in my mind though.

Up until fairly recently, the majority of the population was in third world countries, but the majority of pollution and consumption came from first world countries. I think that is beginning to shift with demographic changes and changes to international consumer power.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

No, I don't believe there are too many people on the planet. It is more like having too many people living a lifestyle that is not very sustainable. That doesn't negate the importance of population in my mind though.

Ok, thanks.

Up until fairly recently, the majority of the population was in third world countries, but the majority of pollution and consumption came from first world countries. I think that is beginning to shift with demographic changes and changes to international consumer power.

Ok. So when you spoke of 'overpopulation' in your first post, you were referring to third world countries then?

[ZephyrusX]

That is interesting. I know in China, the majority of the population is either in the North or in the South and the main rivers are at the opposite side of the country. So they had to build these massive water systems to reroute the water to meet demand. I think the Yellow River has a tendency to dry up, which leads to problems meeting demand and loss revenue. May be it is simply an issue of over population and exceeding the carrying capacity of our resources.

On the other hand, I've heard the water in China is really polluted. Who knows? May be they would have more drinkable water if it wasn't polluted.

Canada has a problem with scare water as well. I remember, living back in Ontario, we were forever being told by the city that we couldn't waste water on such things as watering our lawns. I think there are ways we could cut down on water consumption though. We actually use quite the bit of fresh water for oil extraction in AB. We could find a better method. I'm not sure about ONT. Besides teh fact that may be we shouldn't pollute the hell out of our Great Lakes.

Originally Posted by elucidate

That's an interesting thing to picture the world's population standing side by side and fitting into a space the size of a small country like Hong Kong.

[ZephyrusX]

Mostly third world populations that are urbanizing. Rural populations don't consume as much resources. There is suppose to be a massive trend towards urbanization over the next 30 or some odd years according to the U.N.

Originally Posted by elucidate

Ok. So when you spoke of 'overpopulation' in your first post, you were referring to third world countries then?

[elucidate]

I googled this...more as an update. I haven't really kept up to date with this sort of info for a while now, so it's interesting to see the numbers.

GeoHive - Population Statistics

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Mostly third world populations that are urbanizing. Rural populations don't consume as much resources. There is suppose to be a massive trend towards urbanization over the next 30 or some odd years according to the U.N.

I would imagine there wouldn't be too much in the way of resources to consume for those ones.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I didn't mean that we lack resources as such, but there are certain resources, like water, for one, which in Australia has become a serious issue...

Meanwhile Thailand has been suffering for months from a problem of too much water. They've been flooded into ruins.

Plenty of water in the world .... The problem is managing it.

My country has desalination plants. Our source of water is the sea. The sea is pretty endless. The problem is the energy cost of desalination. But then the whole world has a potentially endless supply of energy - if we could get our solar technology right.

[ZephyrusX]

Maude Barlow and the Council of Canadians has done a lot of work on informing the public on the commodification and skewed distribution of fresh water for anyone interested.

Our Water Commons

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Meanwhile Thailand has been suffering for months from a problem of too much water. They've been flooded into ruins.

Plenty of water in the world .... The problem is managing it.

My country has desalination plants. Our source of water is the sea. The sea is pretty endless. The problem is the energy cost of desalination. But then the whole world has a potentially endless supply of energy - if we could get our solar technology right.

I keep saying why don't they open up more desalination plants here, and keep getting met with some excuse as to why it's not going to happen? I guess it's the same reason to do with energy consumption, which could easily be resolved, if they simply passed legislation and gave solar powered devices more credence in parliament.

It seems like anything that makes too much sense is rejected by these people? It's more like their minds are afraid of change.

It makes perfect sense, and being an island, we have plenty of water around us...as polluted as it is by now, but still, it can be filtered and treated. Black Mica is supposed to be a mineral which totally dissolves all heavy metals and pollutants. I don't know why they won't just do it here?

I can't help but think it is another form of restriction for control purposes, because I can see no good reason to not build desalination plants here. Not that it means we should waste our resources, and we shouldn't have to come to a point where it is threatened before we appreciate water as an essential substance for our survival.

I've been to desalination plants in Malta, and it is a perfect solution.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Maude Barlow and the Council of Canadians

They sound like a band.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I keep saying why don't they open up more desalination plants here, and keep getting met with some excuse as to why it's not going to happen?

The mundane truth is that large infrastructure projects take a lot of political & commercial will to drive.

Look at India. Everyone will agree that it makes sense that India should upgrade its public infrastructure. Its roads, its railways, its airports, its everything.

Who's going to drive this? The political leaders? But the political leaders in so many countries are paralysed by a hundred other smaller battles. Look at Obama, how he struggles to get a little piece of legislation passed.

[scorpio1980]

Overpopulation isn't the problem. The problem is that we don't use our resources properly. With that said I would like the population to stay where it is or get smaller, because I just don't see humans changing their ways any time soon. If we use technology in a correct manner then we can have a growing population, and still flourish. I like the idea of a venus project type of society.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

The mundane truth is that large infrastructure projects take a lot of political & commercial will to drive.

Is it just that, or is it also convincing the politicians that alternative methods are worthy of their time and attention?

Look at India. Everyone will agree that it makes sense that India should upgrade its public infrastructure. Its roads, its railways, its airports, its everything.

Who's going to drive this? The political leaders? But the political leaders in so many countries are paralysed by a hundred other smaller battles. Look at Obama, how he struggles to get a little piece of legislation passed.

I know they have lots on their plate, and it all takes time. It seems like it's always a case of mis-prioritizing.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by scorpio1980

Overpopulation isn't the problem. The problem is that we don't use our resources properly. With that said I would like the population to stay where it is or get smaller, because I just don't see humans changing their ways any time soon. If we use technology in a correct manner then we can have a growing population, and still flourish. I like the idea of a venus project type of society.

With all the talk of apocalyptic disasters that have been going on for years, it hasn't stopped people from breeding at an ever increasing rate, so that tells me that even though people may like to scare themselves silly with end of the world scenarios, it still isn't enough to stop them from bringing life here.

I'd like to think we will use technology correctly, but it seems like humans always seem to find a way to destroy everything with the amazing things they create. We haven't learned how to handle power without it going to our heads and going insane.

What would you propose as a better distribution of resources? Just to give an idea of what could work better...

[JDuff]

Population control. Simple. One child each, two children max. I have no problem with that. Everyone who does is selfish....me, me, me, my family, my heritage, my dreams, my life. I am up for compulsory sterilisation after two children. This is the future. Embrace it.