Whites are second class citizens

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

How is the US going in the wrong direction?

What do you think should of happened to the offenders in the above cases, btw?

And just out of curiosity, does the US still have a policy of throwing everyone in jail? In Canada, the criminal justice system has moved towards conditional sentencing and community involvement. The amount of people we actually put in jail has gone done significantly. At least, in terms of young offenders it has.

See the thread entitled Free Internet Under Attack in this section as an example. Minorities rule the roost, and punish anyone who offends them. It's much worse in Europe and especially in England, where free speech no longer exists.

I think the above offenders should have been subjected to Sharia Law for drinking, since Muslims lobbied for Sharia Law in Britain anyway. You get what you ask for. Either that, or they should have been deported.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I encourage you to generalize even more, until you can look at five races at the same time and just see people.

-Tim

Why?

[ZephyrusX]

That sounds rather harsh. What should the goal of the criminal justice system be? To punish people? As for Sharia Law and deportation, the British criminal justice system must operate according to some system of values and to say that one group of people are subject to different treatment basically implies that they are not 'real' British subjects. What you are in effect doing is continuing racist discourses as this is the underlying implication in historical colonization - 'they are not real subjects of this country!' Do you know if these people have their citizenship or permanent resident card?

I wouldn't make the assumption that all Muslims in the UK want Sharia Law, btw.

Originally Posted by CroMagna

I think the above offenders should have been subjected to Sharia Law for drinking, since Muslims lobbied for Sharia Law in Britain anyway. You get what you ask for. Either that, or they should have been deported.

[Frisky]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Am I playing the "victim card?" I think we're living in Black Run America. Look at the First Family. Look at Hollywood or the music industry. Look at the ADL, the SPLC, the ACLU, etc. Look at universities.

I noticed you stereotypes minorities as being preoccupied with race. When I generalize, it means I hate my race

All of America is obsessed with race and racism. You guys really need to let it go

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Why?

Because it would be a shame for people to be driven apart based on the colour of their skin, their cultural differences, their accents, ect.

Up to you though. If race isn't a big deal in your life, then why change?

[ZephyrusX]

Can you give me an example?

Originally Posted by CroMagna

See the thread entitled Free Internet Under Attack in this section as an example. Minorities rule the roost, and punish anyone who offends them. It's much worse in Europe and especially in England, where free speech no longer exists.

[ZephyrusX]

So is Canada.

I don't think this is a topic to just let go as ignoring the problem simply condones social and structural racism. So long as there are Aboriginals and immigration, there will be problems to resolve, and although ideally we would address them with a win-win perspective, this isn't always going to be the case. It is an issue worth talking about if we are going to reach that win-win ideal, however.

It isn't always a 'in your face, this is war!' kind of discussion. On one of the professional listservs I subscribe to, librarians and library directors are discussing how they can acknowledge the Christmas holidays without alienating other demographics that don't celebrate the season religiously or culturally. The goal is to make everyone welcome without making the library completely neutral by simply not celebrating any holiday.

Well, some librarians do think that the library ought to be neutral. That sort of seems dull to me though.

Originally Posted by Frisky

All of America is obsessed with race and racism. You guys really need to let it go

[newmark]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

See the thread entitled Free Internet Under Attack in this section as an example. Minorities rule the roost, and punish anyone who offends them. It's much worse in Europe and especially in England, where free speech no longer exists.

I think the above offenders should have been subjected to Sharia Law for drinking, since Muslims lobbied for Sharia Law in Britain anyway. You get what you ask for. Either that, or they should have been deported.

Minorities have gained a lot of power recently. The most disturbing of these minorities are criminals, who are seen as in need of help (true) and therefore a special case in law (untrue). I think the majority will react against this situation in the future. Hopefully not too strongly.

Although it would be amusing in this case, I wouldn't want to apply sharia law to anyone living in the UK. The UK already has its own system. Adding another system would be divisive.

[reekah]

To cite the US as a white country is silly.

That said, I think racism is normal, and the current values of Western society wouldn't last forever.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Can you give me an example?

Don Imus, Michael Richards, Beethoven's grandmother, etc.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

I know it's not my problem, but it's nice to be fully informed on all sides of the issue. I don't know if Australia is, but America is a race-obsessed society so it can become very addicting and entertaining.

Australia is quite racist, despite everyone denying it vehemently.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I don't quite agree with the bold part, but I guess it really depends on what you meant. In terms of race, structural marginalization often boils down to class. If you look at proxies for a person's socioeconomic status (access to post secondary education, degree completion, health) coloured minorities do indeed fair worse than white people, but it is not as if white people do not face structural marginalization. There are plenty of impoverished white people and corresponding racial slurs (i.e white trash).

I think where race becomes an issue is that powerful groups of people, historically, deliberately socially engineered the environment in a way where coloured minorities (i.e Aboriginal people in Canada) would face structural marginalization for no other reason other than the fact that they weren't white. Canadian history towards Aboriginal groups is truly despicable.

The issue becomes a little more complicated than that when you consider the fact that Canadian immigration policy deliberately excluded other nationalities that were white, but were deemed socially undesirable (i.e the Irish, Eastern Europeans). I think our first immigration policy flat out did not accept 'undesirable' whites into the country, and when they did change the immigration policy to include them, they did so with the sole intention of using them as cheap labour.

I completely agree with this, so I do think maybe I communicated something I didn't quite mean. I mean that our cultural psyche and therefore many unconscious biases are set up in a way that favors white people over other races, and for the most part that's still the case. (This is why I think things like analyzing race or sex or class in pop culture is valuable, because it shows where that cultural psyche stands.)

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I wouldn't make the assumption that all Muslims in the UK want Sharia Law, btw.

As far as I was aware, the main lobbying for any aspect of Sharia law in western countries concerned including an option that could be applied if everyone entering the contract agreed, to handle certain financial matters in a way that lines up with their traditions (marriage, alimony and like), is that not the case? Anyone know?

[ZephyrusX]

That is interesting. Canada seems to have the same 'image' of being multicultural and friendly, but yah, our history is quite horrible when it comes to issues of race. We still have our problems. I'm convinced the term 'multiculturalism' in Canada was only introduced into popular discourses by politics that wanted to prevent Quebec from separating from the rest of the country.

Originally Posted by elucidate

Australia is quite racist, despite everyone denying it vehemently.

[ZephyrusX]

Oh, ok! That makes sense.

Supertom posted some interesting videos a few months back on how people respond to different races during a crime. Working in retail, I've also noticed that people have a propensity to suspect Aboriginal people of shoplifting even when there is no good reason to do so. That is not to say that there aren't structural reasons for why some Aboriginal people will resort to shop lifting, but there are other structural reasons for other demographic groups to steal, like little old white people living on a pension. Trust me, no one ever suspects the little old couple of stealing pain killers until they flat out catch them in the act!

I suspect the response is different too. I'll be honest, I found it hysterically funny watching the little old couple scurry away with their pain killers. I chose not to do anything about it. I'm not sure how I would react if it was a young, Aboriginal man instead.

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

I completely agree with this, so I do think maybe I communicated something I didn't quite mean. I mean that our cultural psyche and therefore many unconscious biases are set up in a way that favors white people over other races, and for the most part that's still the case. (This is why I think things like analyzing race or sex or class in pop culture is valuable, because it shows where that cultural psyche stands.)

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Oh, ok! That makes sense.

Supertom posted some interesting videos a few months back on how people respond to different races during a crime. Working in retail, I've also noticed that people have a propensity to suspect Aboriginal people of shoplifting even when there is no good reason to do so. That is not to say that there aren't structural reasons for why some Aboriginal people will resort to shop lifting, but there are other structural reasons for other demographic groups to steal, like little old white people living on a pension. Trust me, no one ever suspects the little old couple of stealing pain killers until they flat out catch them in the act!

This sounds right about suspecting aboriginal people, although, I have to say that I spent my teen years loathing going into a newsagency or any store as I could feel the shop owner watching my every move the whole time I was in there. It didn't seem to be an issue of race, so much as age! Young people are perceived as untrustworthy and thieves where I grew up anyway...and I lived in a good part of town.

I admit though, that as non racist as I like to think I am, despite knowing that we all inherit some form of racism from our ancestors, unconsciously, I have had experiences of seeing an african boy wearing a hoodie, and immediately becoming alarmed and on guard, expecting that he is up to no good. Fortunately, I caught myself thinking these thoughts and observing my demeanor so I was able to trace where it came from...but most people never even question it.

he could very well have been up to no good...I don't know, but my initial superficial response to him was to suspect him...which is sad.

[ZephyrusX]

I suspect it relates to both age and race. Young men make me nervous, to be honest. I think it relates back to the fact that the people who inflicted random physical abuse onto me were young men. Not that I have a history of physical abuse or anything, but you know... Some people on the school yard (or even the street) can be really ♥♥♥♥ed up.

I think what you said about race is normal, and you are right, we would benefit by examining our unconscious prejudices. One of the moments in my life that I am ashamed of is when I blatantly turned my back on some young Aboriginal man that was asking for my help because I was afraid of him. He looked incredibly hurt while I was turning away.

I think there are structural reasons for why we developed a certain stereotype around groups of people. In Edmonton, the majority of gang members are Aboriginal, which stems back to poverty, which in turn, stems back to historical colonialism. Regardless, the majority of murders that take place in our city our gang related. I think a lot of people, including my self, just have a knee-jerk reaction of fear when they run into a young Aboriginal man. It is an incredibly insensitive thing to do, but yah... it is there.

I think, Mariana, you were taking more of a cultural studies perspective? Cultural studies isn't really one of my strong points. I do remember a class discussion asking whether parodying racist stereotypes serves to reinforce or deconstruct those stereotypes. We were watching some Weird Al video where the black men were portrayed as stereotypical gangsters that wanted to threaten Al.

It was meant to be funny, but yah... it is still reinforcing a stereotype. I'm not sure what to think about it, to be honest.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I think, Mariana, you were taking more of a cultural studies perspective? Cultural studies isn't really one of my strong points. I do remember a class discussion asking whether parodying racist stereotypes serves to reinforce or deconstruct those stereotypes. We were watching some Weird Al video where the black men were portrayed as stereotypical gangsters that wanted to threaten Al.

It was meant to be funny, but yah... it is still reinforcing a stereotype. I'm not sure what to think about it, to be honest.

Perhaps I was taking such a perspective, but I wouldn't really know , because I'm not familiar with the disciplines. I think as far as parody goes, it depends on the context and audience whether it serves to do those things--which I suppose is me saying it doesn't inherently do either. The question I'd ask about the Weird Al video would be: is it parodying the stereotypes or using the stereotypes to parody something else? Though, come to think of it, I honestly don't think I've ever seen racial or sexual stereotypes successfully parodied. I have seen them, in my opinion, successfully subverted where the scene is set up to make the audience make assumptions about a character based on race or sex, and the things that go along with it (like stereotypical clothing) and then proves the audience completely wrong, forcing them for a second to think about and recognize those assumptions. I've seen it done for humorous and dramatic effect.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I think what you said about race is normal, and you are right, we would benefit by examining our unconscious prejudices. One of the moments in my life that I am ashamed of is when I blatantly turned my back on some young Aboriginal man that was asking for my help because I was afraid of him. He looked incredibly hurt while I was turning away.

I think there are structural reasons for why we developed a certain stereotype around groups of people. In Edmonton, the majority of gang members are Aboriginal, which stems back to poverty, which in turn, stems back to historical colonialism. Regardless, the majority of murders that take place in our city our gang related. I think a lot of people, including my self, just have a knee-jerk reaction of fear when they run into a young Aboriginal man. It is an incredibly insensitive thing to do, but yah... it is there.

Honestly, I think it stems from the media, and we are all brainwashed to have these knee-jerk reactions.

Have you ever heard the album "Fear of a Black Planet" by Public Enemy? They basically rap about this issue in a way that really conveys it from the black man's point of view.

It must be terrible to walk around every day, as a black man/woman and receive looks from people everywhere indicating mistrust and that they have already pegged you as a criminal and a thief. No wonder there are so many dark skinned people committing crimes...if you expect it from them, eventually they will give you a reason to suspect them.

[ZephyrusX]

I don't have the slightest idea if there is actually a discipline called cultural studies. I just made that up as it sounded correct.

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Perhaps I was taking such a perspective, but I wouldn't really know , because I'm not familiar with the disciplines.

One of my brothers must listen to Public Enemy. The name is very familiar, at least. I'll try tracking down the record as it does sound really interesting.

[ZephyrusX]

This reminded me of something humorous from my studies. Apparently, reference librarians are often wrong when answering patrons' questions, but it doesn't matter so much so long as the patron gets a nice chat out of it.

Service with a smile!

I shouldn't be let loose on the reference world.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I don't have the slightest idea if there is actually a discipline called cultural studies. I just made that up as it sounded correct.

[wanzulfikri]

I have this rule to not believe in media 100% until you really see it in front of you.

These days, it is hard to find an honest media that really gives us what the real issue is.

There will always be some agenda behind some news and we should question it before we believe in it.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

That sounds rather harsh. What should the goal of the criminal justice system be? To punish people? As for Sharia Law and deportation, the British criminal justice system must operate according to some system of values and to say that one group of people are subject to different treatment basically implies that they are not 'real' British subjects. What you are in effect doing is continuing racist discourses as this is the underlying implication in historical colonization - 'they are not real subjects of this country!' Do you know if these people have their citizenship or permanent resident card?

I wouldn't make the assumption that all Muslims in the UK want Sharia Law, btw.

I was going for something harsh because what they did is an outrage. They have ruined that woman's life. She's no longer able to work and in this economy she may never be able to work again. They also called her a white ♥♥♥♥♥ and a white slag which makes it a "hate" crime if one is to go along with the notion of hate crimes. And yes I think the purpose of the criminal justice system is to punish (which may help the victims feel a sense of closure) and provide a deterrent.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Australia is quite racist, despite everyone denying it vehemently.

How so? Aborigines receive government-donated houses that go to waste, they continue living in squalor, only to receive more free stuff. There are the Lebanese riots, but that's because they were being sexist. But you live there, so maybe you can enlighten us

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Oh, ok! That makes sense.

Supertom posted some interesting videos a few months back on how people respond to different races during a crime. Working in retail, I've also noticed that people have a propensity to suspect Aboriginal people of shoplifting even when there is no good reason to do so. That is not to say that there aren't structural reasons for why some Aboriginal people will resort to shop lifting, but there are other structural reasons for other demographic groups to steal, like little old white people living on a pension. Trust me, no one ever suspects the little old couple of stealing pain killers until they flat out catch them in the act!

I suspect the response is different too. I'll be honest, I found it hysterically funny watching the little old couple scurry away with their pain killers. I chose not to do anything about it. I'm not sure how I would react if it was a young, Aboriginal man instead.

That's rational discrimination, grounded in the idea that stereotypes are on average true, based on statistics and disparities.

[ZephyrusX]

Do you reduce human beings to a statistic? The problem with statistics is that they don't tell us what individual people are going to do.

I am not a number!



haha - Sorry, couldn't resist. Have you ever watched The Prisoner? It is pretty interesting.

Originally Posted by CroMagna

That's rational discrimination, grounded in the idea that stereotypes are on average true, based on statistics and disparities.

[ZephyrusX]

There is no evidence that punishment deters crime. I don't think punishment brings closure to victims either. Sentencing circles do though! The criminal justice system is actually pretty alienating for the victim. Their voices are quite literally taken away by the State that represents their interests.

Originally Posted by CroMagna

And yes I think the purpose of the criminal justice system is to punish (which may help the victims feel a sense of closure) and provide a deterrent.

[ZephyrusX]

I think it is important to point out that statistics are socially constructed as well. Statistics and personal experience may tell you that young males from racial minorities are more inclined to be charged with petty theft (theft under $5000), but those statistics and experiences may be distorted as those groups are quite literally policed more often than other demographic groups. No one is watching the old, white couple. There is also the issue of whether private groups decide to go ahead and press charges. The old couple that I let go despite shoplifting were never charged despite committing a crime as I never bothered to stop them.

Originally Posted by CroMagna

That's rational discrimination, grounded in the idea that stereotypes are on average true, based on statistics and disparities.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

That's rational discrimination, grounded in the idea that stereotypes are on average true, based on statistics and disparities.

That doesn't make it right. It's wrong, simply put. I think Zeph makes valid points here.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I'm convinced the term 'multiculturalism' in Canada was only introduced into popular discourses by politics that wanted to prevent Quebec from separating from the rest of the country.

It was, and it worked!

A few points I'd like to add...You're not going to make the case that "x race is being treated as second-class citizens'' through the power of examples. That's just a logical fallacy. Statistics have merit here even though they're not without their problems either.

I can't stand the term ''reverse racism'' (not in the way it's usually used). It ignores the multitude of other races and it ignores that racism can live within each and every one of us, regardless of our race. Finally, most abhorrently, it implies the idea that racism is only a white on black thing. Whites did not invent racism and they do not claim sole ownership rights over it either.

To me, the term ''reverse racism'' would only make sense when expressing hatred or disgust towards her or his own race. Sort of like internalized homophobia.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

I can't stand the term ''reverse racism'' (not in the way it's usually used). It ignores the multitude of other races and it ignores that racism can live within each and every one of us, regardless of our race. Finally, most abhorrently, it implies the idea that racism is only a white on black thing. Whites did not invent racism and they do not claim sole ownership rights over it either.

To me, the term ''reverse racism'' would only make sense when expressing hatred or disgust towards her or his own race. Sort of like internalized homophobia.

Good post--this particular point isn't made nearly enough.

[supertom]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

That doesn't make it right. It's wrong, simply put. I think Zeph makes valid points here.It was, and it worked!

A few points I'd like to add...You're not going to make the case that "x race is being treated as second-class citizens'' through the power of examples. That's just a logical fallacy. Statistics have merit here even though they're not without their problems either.

I can't stand the term ''reverse racism'' (not in the way it's usually used). It ignores the multitude of other races and it ignores that racism can live within each and every one of us, regardless of our race. Finally, most abhorrently, it implies the idea that racism is only a white on black thing. Whites did not invent racism and they do not claim sole ownership rights over it either.

To me, the term ''reverse racism'' would only make sense when expressing hatred or disgust towards her or his own race. Sort of like internalized homophobia.

Reverse racism is discrimination against the majority group, the countries discussed in this thread are white dominated. I don't think I've ever heard of it used any other way.