We have the Right!, not to donate our organs

[sk8joyful]

Hello,
I chose to post this here, because "health-care" is listed in this section; tho I would have preferred posting it in Health & Fitness, because these are wholly possible for this topic.

This concerns the fact: that at one time, an UNborn child was such at Conception, and
therefore, abortion was Illegal, aka Murder). But people LOVE infanticide, so they found a neat little way around that, by simply re-defining when LIFE begins: no sweat, at BIRTH see how easy that was!

Except, people also LOVE genocide in general, so since they managed to re-define when LIFE begins, let's just also re-define when LIFE ends: no sweat, as soon as any doctor says, (& let's give 30+ parameters, so doctors have LOTS of wiggle-room), on how fast they can KILL the next person, at their whim...

So here, we have examples of 2 deadly social-changes: Abortion, & the equally-FORCING of UNwanted Harvesting of Vital-organs; & for what: foremost & primarily the $enrichment of doctors$.

[sk8joyful]

Officials running a federal program that is considering re-defining death are going to be seeking further public comment after members of the Christian Medical Association raised alarms about several problems, including - Obama's "regulatory czar" in 2009 pushing strongly for the removal of organs from those who did not give their consent to becoming an organ donor.--> "the state owns the rights to body parts of people, and it can remove their organs without asking anyone's permission."

Anyone who has not left specific orders against organ donation, is a voluntary contributor to the program.

"The unintended consequences of the proposed requirements would be antithetical to the ethical practice of medicine.

"If physicians conscientiously opposed to such policies
were forced to retire from the practice of critical care medicine
rather than participate in them, society would lose many dedicated, skilled & compassionate caregivers."

Read more: Latest Obama controversy: Who's ID'd as organ donor Latest Obama controversy: Who's ID'd as organ donor

[sk8joyful]

IF we do not openly state our opposition to have our body organs removed,
then the state (when they presume that a greater good may be achieved by taking them from us, and giving them to someone else), can take our organs when we are incapacitated, or dead, or at any other time that they please.
__________________________________

However, in new research involving human stem cell research, doctors and researchers harvested pieces of heart muscle from patients and then stimulated those cells to form human heart stem cells which were returned to the patients. Adult human stem cells have shown great promise in repairing the hearts of their donors. If this procedure can be done with other organs, such as the liver and pancreas, and the promise is good, then
why will we need to steal organs from the living and dying, especially when harvesting body organs and installing them in others involves risk and extensive use of dangerous anti-rejection drugs?

Please see this article on Cardiac Stem Cell research:

http://news.yahoo.com/treating-heart...172000014.html

Ethically, this use of harvested dead body parts
does not make sense in view of recent stem cell research.

[sk8joyful]

Since the definition of death will continue to be vague,
people who are merely in a coma,
or another so-called vegetative state, could have their body organs harvested
with or without their prior consent (especially if a relative, wanted them dead)
while they are still alive without anesthesia.

The problem, with that course of affairs lies in the fact,

that People (from various Coma-states have been known to Spontaneously & suddenly regain consciousness.
And in fact have been known to HEAL, like the adult-man who regrew his skull & bone.
This is why anybody with an intact Conscience is very concerned, about doctors harvesting the organs
of those who are unconscious, but not dead. --- In addition, to preserve the viability of these organs,
physicians would rather not use chemicals and anesthesia, so if a person were to revive suddenly
during an organ removal procedure, they would experience terrible pain.

And of course, would be immediately KILLED, for the "greater good". - Now what if you wanted to yet LIVE?

TOO BAD. - You fell victim to the state. - ah yes! Medical-fascism, don't you love it??

[elucidate]

I'm sorry, but your posts are near impossible to read.

I know you want to emphasize as though you are speaking really to us, but the way you set your posts out make me scroll past them. I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way either?

You might not feel like you are being unappreciated so much if you make more of an effort to make your posts more easily readable to forum members!

Just a little friendly feedback Sk8.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I'm sorry, but your posts are near impossible to read.

I know you want to emphasize as though you are speaking really to us,
but the way you set your posts out make me scroll past them.

Just a little friendly feedback Sk8.

I'm sorry, but your persistent Negativity, when
(I post a Thread, or another opinion you don't favor), is
making me want to continue Ignoring you.

I know you want to attack me as some sort of nut, and you can do that;
but the way you continue addressing me makes me scroll past your posts.

Just a little friendly feedback, elucidate

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

I'm sorry, but your persistent Negativity, when
(I post a Thread, or another opinion you don't favor), is
making me want to continue Ignoring you.

I know you want to attack me as some sort of nut, and you can do that;
but the way you continue addressing me makes me scroll past your posts.

Just a little friendly feedback, elucidate

See THAT's more readable.

I'm wondering why you interpret constructive criticism as being an attack and negative though? My feedback was actually friendly or at least it was intended to be helpful, whereas yours is passive-aggressive tit for tat.

Granted I can be a bit blunt in my delivery so I could have been a bit more diplomatic about it, but I don't think being straight forward is the same as an attack, which is how you have misinterpreted my post.

Also, ignoring me would entail actually not responding to my posts...not responding with sarcasm thinly veiling anger.

If you can't take some constructive feedback that was well intentioned, then don't complain about people not appreciating you when they can't read your posts.

[sk8joyful]

On another Forum, some religious twit (lacking a better term), posted:

"Organ donation is holy
since it involves a sacrifice"
_____________________
those people make me Vomit!

[sk8joyful]

So, how "holy" is FORCED organ-donation:

1. the 'wrecking' business:
First, it used to be that people going into a hospital, believed it was a place of refuge. - BUT
Transplant hospitals are like a garage you take your car to for repairs...
then discover they've got an auto wrecking business at the back wanting to dismantle your vehicle for spare parts.
The introduction of staff trained to target relatives of (supposed) 'brain dead' patients,
reduces the security one feels within a hospital. It is taking advantage of distressed & vulnerable people.


2. cannibalism -
Japanese cardiologist Dr Yoshio Watanabe, says that patients have been quoted
as confessing to wishing donors an early death.
Japanese sociologist, T. Awaya, describes the trend: “We are now eying each others’ bodies greedily,
as a potential source of detachable spare parts with which to extend our lives, a form of “social” or “friendly” cannibalism.
Transplant technology has opened a Pandora’s box of cannibalism where healthy people cringe,
when a relative develops kidney disease. Twins are particularly prone to becoming semi-voluntary kidney banks for each other.”

# 3 + 4 coming up...

[sk8joyful]

3. $economics$ -
Those signing the organ donor registers assume that
best able to regain health, & those most desperate will receive their donated body parts.
Few donors like the idea that their donation might be snapped up by those with power or wealth.

4. humans preying on humans -
The reality is that the donors tend to be younger than the recipients.
Organs from young bodies transplant best.
Recipients of kidneys are often over 40 years old while prospective kidney donors of this age rarely donate, due to degeneration.
One might question the value of transplanting kidneys into middle aged or older patients
who have ruined these organs through preventable diabetes.
Others ruin their kidneys and livers through high consumption of alcohol and prescription drugs.
Supermarket drugs including those containing acetaminophen are still causing liver & kidney failures,
resulting in death or need for a transplant. This is because the recommended dose is very close to the lethal dose.
One might also question the value of transplanting livers when the primary cause of liver failure
is from Hepatitis C caused from drug injectors sharing needles.


# 5 + 6 coming up...

[sk8joyful]

5. two types of patients:
Stroke and head injury victims are categorized soon after admission: donors and non-donors.
Medical bureaucrats may deny it, but
when the patients' conditions decline, doctors treat but keep in mind the value of the harvestable organs. Prospective donors may get damaging treatment aimed at preserving their organs for transplanting,
while organ retainers may receive a superior treatment designed to heal the damaged brain.

6. two types of death:
Dying organ keepers are treated with more respect as their status descends
from the patient, to the deceased, to the corpse and finally as the cadaver.
In contrast,
the status of the donor drops with lightning speed going from the patient,
to the heart-beating cadaver, immediately as a doctor declares brain death.
Even as there's no universal consensus on death; given such facts as people have Spontaneously reversed their coma, plus NDE's are well-documented, and further awarenesses...

# 7 + 8 coming up...

[sk8joyful]

7. bodily-abuse?, or Murder -
Suppose
a person with a knife runs into the hospital ICU and slices the wrists & throat of this same brain dead woman.
Blood sprays over the bed, her arms and legs flail about, her body convulses in pain and finally her heart ceases beating.
Would we call this act: abuse of a dead body, or murder? Our innate thinking might be that it was murder.
But
carefully cloaked in terms of medical-"procedures", that is close to what happens to a donor...
transplant Coordinators could be called to appear in court as expert witnesses to argue
that it was merely bodily abuse. Their expert opinion might reduce the sentence from execution, to a short stint in prison.

Would you lower a sister, declared “brain dead", connected to a breathing apparatus,
with a beating heart & warm & soft body, into a grave? Would we then throw the dirt over her?
Probably not.
Yet transplant agencies suggest we hand over relatives to surgeons to perform multiple organ removal,
without anesthetic while the donor is in a similar condition.

8. happy ?? recipients:
The “happy transplant recipient” stories promoted by the donation agencies are rarely true.
To believe the joyful organ recipient notion requires an ignorance of the processes and
results of transplanting—IGNORANCE the donation agencies want to maintain.
The internationally noted Canadian cardiac surgeon, GM Guiraudon, has estimated that,

“…approximately 20% of heart recipients show considerable improvement of symptoms; but
20% die within one year, and the remaining 60% barely survive in a prolonged state of misery.”

Also reported is that,
“…33% of cardiac transplant patients showed signs of increasing depression”
.

[elucidate]

I just wanted to say that I had absolutely no intention of attacking you as a "nut", so you are wrong there.

I really just wanted to be able to read your post, as I found the subject interesting enough to click on your thread.

[sk8joyful]

Merlin, an exceptional Healer, added:
"I think organ donations should be outlawed.
Stemcells for repair have been used for 20 plus years.

(It is not used in the US for political reasons, to enrich doctors.)

So why not use stem cells to repair the organ,
(rather than transplanting someone else's organs, and treating them for life with anti-rejection drugs which suppress the immune system" so the recipient can't fight off anything else either, leaving them totally vulnerable)

THANK you Merlin, for actually Adding to this discussion...

[ZephyrusX]

How do you feel about the voluntary consent to organ donation, Sk8?

[sk8joyful]

Sadly, a fool's borne every minute, so even as MERLIN is a Healer extra-ordinaire,
another clueless wonder said:
"I'm sure there are quite good reasons for doing what they do.
Doctors are not idiots, after all."

Really??

my 37 yrs. as a nurse, in 4 U.S. states, in 11 hospitals (mostly various ICU's), from East to West-coast,
taught me to experience doctors in a Different light, than what most of the General-public wants to believe.

Merlin added "No, they're just Myopic.
The STEM-cell Repair method is widely used in many parts of the world,
but suppressed in many other places.
Doctors can only do what they are taught in school, which is typically which pill to use.

Stem cells are not pills.

The doctor can also do only what the legal system allows of him.
They are also limited by the insurance industry.

And why I recommend treatment outside the USA".

Interesting, to say the least.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

How do you feel about the voluntary consent to organ donation, Sk8?

Since this particular thread, was started in a Christian-forum,
where at least a minority of us WANT to protect the Sanctity of LIFE, and
my good friend started it, here was my next comment: "Yes, from my professional-experience, plus
3 recent personal-hospitalizations, I have ample experiences... from which to speak to the wholly UNnecessary &
evil practice of increasing ORGAN harvesting, which (like
the evil practice of many THOUSANDs DAILY abortions) is also 100% against GOD's Holy Will.

but too many doctors no longer care about what GOD wants;
which is how they can endanger, harm, hurt, maim & kill with impunity, and get away with it,
particularly since hospitals no longer are required to do 'autopsies', unless Court-ordered,

Easy-peasey, to KILL...

[sk8joyful]

From the fore-going question, we know that many will
gladly Sacrifice... themselves to the state's wishes; and
Run as fast as they can to fill-out that Donor-card. Why?
they wanna die, in hopes of reinCarnating into that BETTER life,
where surely the grass is greener on the other side
--- okay, let them play that game.

Then we have christians? saying:
We have received the seal of the Holy Spirit.
Our task now is to preserve the integrity
of what we have received by living a truly Christian life.

My comment to that was: Yes, and
we can only do this so long as we are ALIVE...

Once a medical doctor says: you are dead, & then
does "procedures" making you dead, you are dead.
__
so how do they DEFINE 'dead', or in this case of
WANTING your organs DECLARE you "brain-dead??"

THESE matters we better discuss, to make SURE...
NO-one, but GOD and us "decides" when we will be 'dead'.

[James Fletcher]

Are you alright?

[ZephyrusX]

I see. So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that voluntary consent doesn't mean anything as we have a moral obligation to preserve the sanctity of our lives? This is what God wants? Does it matter that organ transplantation only occurs once the patient is declared brain dead? I've heard of people coming out of comas after years as well, but I don't think this happens very often. If a patient is willing to risk this and voluntary consents to donate his/her organs, shouldn't there be the obligation to donate organs in order to preserve the sanctity of life in others?

If brain dead isn't a suitable definition of death for you, than what is? What God decides? Should we take brain dead people off the mechanical life support systems that keep their organs alive and let God decide then?

[elucidate]

How about this.

Whilst it may be good karma to donate a kidney, most people who do donate organs do it because it is very much needed.

There is a shortage of organs for transplant operations, and many people die every year because there isn't suitable organs for them. It has nothing to do with wanting to reincarnate...although that might be a bonus for some who believe in that.

If a person dies, then they no longer need their organs, right!

Sure, you have a right not to donate...everyone does. No one is forcing the issue...it's called DONATION for a reason.

[aelle]

I have to agree with Elucidate's feedback (which was neither an attack nor an insult, as far as I can tell) : your posts take a tremendous amount of effort to understand, and most of the time I can't manage it. At the very least out of respect for those of us whose native language is not English, I would appreciate if you could stick to the standard rules of layout and punctuation.

[sk8joyful]

So how did we get down this slippery slope, towards humanity's annihilation:

It didn't start out this way. Once medical doctors acted out of Humanitarian Ethics.
Tho they didn't have
1. Antibiotics, nor antibiotic-Resistant Super-microbes gaining the upper hand again).
2. Nor did they have CAT-scans, nor the increase in associated Cancer-deaths therefrom)
3. Nor did they have Thalidamide, nor Warfarin (rat-poison),
nor chemo-"therapy" & zillions of other poisonous-drugs, which all kill...)

Well, we must do something about that state of affairs;
but what?

oh, let's start the A.M.A. <- they will have ALL the answers.

Yes, we've seen that, alright.

[ZephyrusX]

I signed my organ donation card with the simple reasoning that I won't have any use for them any more. I'm not sure what difference it would make to me whether someone else wants my organs.

I think legally, the doctors have to get permission from the next of kin before the operation can take place irrespective of whether or not you are on the organ donation list. Even if a law was passed in the States that requires you to opt-out of the list rather than opt-in, I don't think doctors can willy nilly skip the consent of the next of kin.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by aelle

I have to agree with Elucidate's feedback (which was neither an attack nor an insult, as far as I can tell) : your posts take a tremendous amount of effort to understand, and most of the time I can't manage it. At the very least out of respect for those of us whose native language is not English, I would appreciate if you could stick to the standard rules of layout and punctuation.

Thanks aelle, you put it in a better way than I did.

I honestly wasn't attacking or being insulting. You would know if I was insulting you Sk8!

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I signed my organ donation card with the simple reasoning that I won't have any use for them any more. I'm not sure what difference it would make to me whether someone else wants my organs.

That was my exact reasoning as well. I'm into recycling, and it's just a waste to be buried with healthy organs that will just become worm food or dust (or a meal to the lions, as is my last request.) when someone can benefit from them.

I think legally, the doctors have to get permission from the next of kin before the operation can take place irrespective of whether or not you are on the organ donation list. Even if a law was passed in the States that requires you to opt-out of the list rather than opt-in, I don't think doctors can willy nilly skip the consent of the next of kin.

Yes, in Australia, they tell people who donate to inform their family, so they know before hand what the score is, and can go ahead and confirm it later.

[ZephyrusX]

Also, I'm pretty sure the majority of organs come from patients who are in accidents (excluding organs that are donated by living people) and are declared brain dead even though their organs are still functioning. They are not left in comas. Either their next of kin agrees to the organ transplantation or it is off to the morgue they go. At least, that is how I understand it.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Also, I'm pretty sure the majority of legal organs come from patients who are in accidents and are declared brain dead even though their organs are still functioning. They are not left in comas. Either their next of kin agrees to the organ transplantation or it is off to the morgue they go. At least, that is how I understand it.

Organs aren't just taken from a body without permission...at least not in the first world.

In Thailand and other places, there are dodgy organ sellers who will drug a tourist and take their kidneys and leave them in a dirty bathtub so they wake up alone and groggy and with a kidney missing. Horrific.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I see.
So if I understand you correctly,
you are saying that voluntary consent doesn't mean anything
as we have a moral obligation to preserve the sanctity of our lives? This is what God wants?

God, as Jesus, said: "From my LOVE, I have Come to bring you LIFE, & this more abundantly..." <- THIS Abundance of life... is what God wants, for us.
in contrast,
Too many medical-doctors say: "via my FEAR-mongering I love practicing every chance I get, I bring you a label of 'brain-dead', so I can steal your organs, to make $more profit$" <- THIS Abundance of $profit$ is what too many doctors want, from us.

Get the difference?

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I've heard of people coming out of comas after years as well, but I don't think this happens very often.

Well, it actually happens, FAR more often. - But
all such are either labeled "anecdotal"; or "mistaken-diagnoses"; or
Awarenesses are outright suppressed, because such successes... would mean the general Public would then say: Hey, wait a minute!! WE CAN LIVE.
oh no! -
That is totally, against the Political-agendas.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

Anyone who has not left specific orders against organ donation, is a voluntary contributor to the program.

That doesn't sound so bad to me. As long as they aren't removing organs from people who could still be resuscitated.

If you're so against it, then just opt out of it. No big deal.

On the plus side, this will likely save thousands of lives of people who need organ transplants.