Occupy people - please read

[Peterw]

Very good article about what's wrong with the financial industry and their links to government. Really well informed and well explained:

charles hugh smith-The Collapse of Our Corrupt, Predatory, Pathological Financial System Is Necessary and Positive

[James Fletcher]

Originally Posted by garentee

If you spent a day working with me you would understand what honest work is and you would also see that I am not against making money.. You do not know me and you are twisting my words to make it look like I am not responsible for my lot in life.

If you say you have a strong work ethic, fine, I believe you.

But why then do you support and defend the Occupiers? Besides the ones that aren't taking advantage of the situation for their own political agenda and the well-meaning folk who are simply a little misguided and think they are standing up for middle class rights, the rest are simply freeloading college students who failed to understand what they were committing to when they took out that student loan and now they want a personal bailout.

At the very least, I don't know what business your in, but if you had a staff, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't take any of those lazy whiners under your wing.

Side note: I recently saw a picture of a girl protesting, holding a cardboard poster basically complaining about having a $27,000 (approx) student loan and no job. 27K??? Cry me a river! That's nothing compared to some others. She could suck it up, get a job unrelated to her field and pay that off in 2-3 years.

[Peterw]

Folks,

Can I request that this discussion isn't just another backward and forwards arguement between those that support the occupy movement and those that don't as we already have a gazillion pages of that in other threads.

I'd rather this was a discussion about how we can actually bring about financial reform with practical workable solutions right now

[James Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Peterw

Folks,

Can I request that this discussion isn't just another backward and forwards arguement between those that support the occupy movement and those that don't as we already have a gazillion pages of that in other threads.

I'd rather this was a discussion about how we can actually bring about financial reform with practical workable solutions right now

Apologies. This is your thread.

My knowledge of finance and economics is pretty much intermediate, but I am an avid reader of The Daily Reckoning, they are very good at simplifying current economic issues for the average reader.

Basically the world is going through what some call a Great Correction, which is a forced shrinking of the massive deficits that have been accumulated over the past half century.

In short, the solution is definitely not more debt.

[Peterw]

Originally Posted by garentee

I never said you HAVE to sell your soul to make a buck, I just said that SOMETIMES people will not sell their souls just to make a buck... BIG difference. But yeah I will not sell my soul just to make a buck because money is definitely not everything... Living a fulfilling life is worth a heck of a lot more than any money EVER will be.. You can have tons of money and not have a fulfilling life which is just plain sad.

To me making a lot of money is a part of living a fulfilling life, or better put the removal of any financial related stress is a means to being able to focus on things that are really important. I believe this because I have had years of financial stress that has dominated my life and I want to go on without it dicating my moods and how I have to spend my time.

Also going forward I want to get into a position where I can make a difference and I believe that having financial resources and time at my disposal is key to making this happen.

Originally Posted by garentee

I will go through this one more time.... This..

Sometimes others are to blame, but most of the time people just didn't plan or make the right choices.

Led me to say that sometimes people are not willing to sell their souls to make a buck. Basically I am saying that not everything is so black and white as to say that a person did not make the right choice or planned poorly... There is no way that those are the only two reasons.. SO I put in my little quip about Selling your soul...That is all there is to it...You have spent entirely too much energy on this...

This is an unfortunate truth for many, as unfair as it is most of the people affected by the crisis were doing what they thought was the right thing.

Hopefully people will get smarter because of this and some reform will be forced by people simply voting with their wallets.

The question is - if the banks lose their funding in the form of customer money and it all goes to smaller banks/credit unions etc what will happen then to ensure stability, fairness and a robust financial system from here on?

Then what about the evil corporations? Exploiting cheap labour to create inferior products is something I find unacceptable as well. So how do we go about identifying which companies do this and botcot their products as well?

On the flip side outsourcing labour to parts of the world (India) where they specialise in providing outsourced services for costs that are in-line with their standard of living is well used and even recommended to a lot of small start up businesses and entrepreneurs (Tim Ferris' "4 Hour Work Week" anyone?).

Where do you draw the line between the children forced to work in a sweatshop and the cheap outsourcing company set up specifically to provide services to affluent western economies?

Lets talk about solutions and ideas

[Peterw]

Originally Posted by James Fletcher

Apologies. This is your thread.

My knowledge of finance and economics is pretty much intermediate, but I am an avid reader of The Daily Reckoning, they are very good at simplifying current economic issues for the average reader.

Basically the world is going through what some call a Great Correction, which is a forced shrinking of the massive deficits that have been accumulated over the past half century.

In short, the solution is definitely not more debt.

No need to apologise - thanks for your contribution

[garentee]

Originally Posted by Peterw

To me making a lot of money is a part of living a fulfilling life, or better put the removal of any financial related stress is a means to being able to focus on things that are really important. I believe this because I have had years of financial stress that has dominated my life and I want to go on without it dicating my moods and how I have to spend my time.

Also going forward I want to get into a position where I can make a difference and I believe that having financial resources and time at my disposal is key to making this happen.

I understand that and can fully relate to that..As I was saying, there are honest ways of making a buck and I have no problem with those that make a lot of money.. I do have a problem with people who make money by causing harm to others in order to make that money.Which was my point in the first place. I find that banks and corporations (not all of them mind you) tend to do this. To me that is what all the fuss is about...

This is an unfortunate truth for many, as unfair as it is most of the people affected by the crisis were doing what they thought was the right thing.

They were...

Hopefully people will get smarter because of this and some reform will be forced by people simply voting with their wallets.

I have long felt that this was a good way of doing things, but since the government has been bought by the corporate interests it makes it a wee bit harder for that to be effective.

The question is - if the banks lose their funding in the form of customer money and it all goes to smaller banks/credit unions etc what will happen then to ensure stability, fairness and a robust financial system from here on?

Then what about the evil corporations? Exploiting cheap labour to create inferior products is something I find unacceptable as well. So how do we go about identifying which companies do this and botcot their products as well?


The corporations that exploit people ought to be Forced somehow to stop what they are doing, pay massive reparations and change their ways permanently. As long as the collusion between government and corporate interests is present.. Its not going to happen.. The to me is what all the fuss is about as well.
On the flip side outsourcing labour to parts of the world (India) where they specialise in providing outsourced services for costs that are in-line with their standard of living is well used and even recommended to a lot of small start up businesses and entrepreneurs (Tim Ferris' "4 Hour Work Week" anyone?).

Where do you draw the line between the children forced to work in a sweatshop and the cheap outsourcing company set up specifically to provide services to affluent western economies?

The use of child labor and sweatshop labor should be punishable offenses. Period. Outsourcing of labor is a good thing if the people are being paid a LIVING WAGE and allowed to work in good working conditions.. which many are not.. That said, I generally am against outsourcing of labor to other countries because I believe that money should stay right here..I am a big believer of keeping local economies going. If you have a strong local economy your community has a better chance of surviving massive economic problems with less disruptions. Unfortunately when a big box store wants to come into town they will use all the resources available to them and will stop short of nothing including suing the town to make sure they can set up shop there even if the public does not want it to happen. When that happens a lot of the locally owned stores go out of business because they cannot compete with the big box stores... Wal Mart anyone? That is what the fuss is all about as well.It is a big issue and it has been building for at least 30 years.. it is just now starting to show its face.
Lets talk about solutions and ideas

I realize now I should have used the multi quote method.. ah well..

[garentee]

Originally Posted by James Fletcher

If you say you have a strong work ethic, fine, I believe you.

But why then do you support and defend the Occupiers? Besides the ones that aren't taking advantage of the situation for their own political agenda and the well-meaning folk who are simply a little misguided and think they are standing up for middle class rights, the rest are simply freeloading college students who failed to understand what they were committing to when they took out that student loan and now they want a personal bailout.

At the very least, I don't know what business your in, but if you had a staff, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't take any of those lazy whiners under your wing.

Side note: I recently saw a picture of a girl protesting, holding a cardboard poster basically complaining about having a $27,000 (approx) student loan and no job. 27K??? Cry me a river! That's nothing compared to some others. She could suck it up, get a job unrelated to her field and pay that off in 2-3 years.

It does bother me that there are those who are jumping on bandwagons which is what happens with a movement.. The core issues though I think are valid points. Most of the problems are systemic in nature and that makes it much harder to change things.

As for employees of mine? Well I am a farmer.. so they are there only if they know how to work.. and are willing to work hard. I generally do not hire too many people.. as in virtually none. But those that have worked for me have good work ethics for the most part. Farming tends to weed out those that cannot handle hard work pretty quickly.

[MariconesUnited]

I'm reading this thread for the first time and I have to say something here.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Ok, so what you actually were saying, is that the EXCUSE for people not starting their own business, or doing something to make money beyond the situation that they are in life, is because they don't have enough imagination, to make money in a way that's legal and or honest.

I'm not going to address your point directly. I'm only going to point this quote out as an example of your strawmen. I don't even know if you're aware of it, but you have a habit of taking what someone said and changing it completely. I have no idea how you went from what he wrote to your interpretation. Honestly. I just thought I would point this out since this is a PD site. I appreciate your input despite this.

[Peterw]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I can see the credit union thing, and am beginning to look into that, presently.

But, as far as anything else, in terms of Wall Street--I'm simply buying all the physical gold and silver I can, for the day the whole fiat money system collapses. I want nothing to do with Wall Street. Period.

What are your thoughts on this?

https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=96073

Due to the increase in gold prices this year, more than 50000 goldsmiths have lost their jobs in Coimbatore, Tamilnadu. The goldsmiths have switched to other prospective areas such as construction and textile. Coimbatore is a hub for gold jewellery in the country and the latest designs of gold ornaments are made by the goldsmiths in the city.

Both the goldsmiths were stating that due to loss of business many people were moving away from the profession and there were few suicides too. Life is becoming tough and since the skills are passed from generations, these goldsmiths are finding it hard to leave. Due to the huge increase in price, average Indian consumers cannot afford to buy gold.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Peterw

What are your thoughts on this?

https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=96073

What do I think?

Them's the breaks.

[russianrocket]

Man Arrested for Breaking EMT's Leg at Occupy Wall Street | NBC New York

Occupy Portland: Mayor Sam Adams orders camps cleared at 12:01 a.m. Sunday | OregonLive.com

and the last one.

Occupy Harvard – Students Set Up Tents In Harvard Yard « CBS Boston

Kids that can afford harvard, and will probably end up in all the companies that the occupy people are protesting, are protesting.... that's another example of irony.

[Peterw]

They are being evicted now:

UPDATE 5-New York police evict anti-Wall Street protesters | Reuters

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Peterw

They are being evicted now:

UPDATE 5-New York police evict anti-Wall Street protesters | Reuters

and it's done
NYPD raiders roust OWS rabble - NYPOST.com

I'm glad they actually upheld the law

[russianrocket]

Occupy protesters regroup in NYC - CBS News

[garentee]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Occupy protesters regroup in NYC - CBS News

It is not going to go away...

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by garentee

It is not going to go away...

Yeah, it will, considering that the majority of the US population is already getting tired of them. Now that the judge also made it clear, that what they are doing, is illegal, and there for they will be arrested every single time they do this. oh yeah, and they did try to break into some church lot, but they got arrested there as well, after they used bolt cutters to cut through the locks. They have NO sense of property. Maybe, they will get smart, and protest like normal people.

Otherwise, the only thing that they'll be occupying lol is a jail cell.

[garentee]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Yeah, it will, considering that the majority of the US population is already getting tired of them. Now that the judge also made it clear, that what they are doing, is illegal, and there for they will be arrested every single time they do this. oh yeah, and they did try to break into some church lot, but they got arrested there as well, after they used bolt cutters to cut through the locks. They have NO sense of property. Maybe, they will get smart, and protest like normal people.

Otherwise, the only thing that they'll be occupying lol is a jail cell.

That is not the point of my post. The point is that the sentiment is out there and there are more people getting on board with it as time goes on... There will most likely be a protest movement of a different nature.. but the sentiment is not going away...It is my belief that some of the trouble makers within the movement are not within the movement to begin with, but interlopers using the cover of the protest movement to do their misdeeds and perhaps discredit the movement itself.. It has been known to happen before....

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by garentee

That is not the point of my post. The point is that the sentiment is out there and there are more people getting on board with it as time goes on... There will most likely be a protest movement of a different nature.. but the sentiment is not going away...It is my belief that some of the trouble makers within the movement are not within the movement to begin with, but interlopers using the cover of the protest movement to do their misdeeds and perhaps discredit the movement itself.. It has been known to happen before....

The sentiment, that others have, what others want, has always, and will always be around. That's nothing new.

As far as your belief. Well, isn't that all it is? How many people do you think were just fakers?

[garentee]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

The sentiment, that others have, what others want, has always, and will always be around. That's nothing new.

As far as your belief. Well, isn't that all it is? How many people do you think were just fakers?

This is not about people wanting what others have... No not at all. it is about American business and government not being in bed with one another and making rules that benefit only them... Cause seriously that kind of crap is UN AMERICAN...
As for my beliefs on the fakers? That was a tactic that was used in earlier protest movements.. why would it not be used now?

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by garentee

This is not about people wanting what others have... No not at all. it is about American business and government not being in bed with one another and making rules that benefit only them... Cause seriously that kind of crap is UN AMERICAN...
As for my beliefs on the fakers? That was a tactic that was used in earlier protest movements.. why would it not be used now?

Then it wouldn't be called the 99%. How many 1%'s are in bed with government? And why are these people so against wallstreet and big business, but not government?

I'm sure there are some fakers in the mix as well, but I seriously doubt that it's more then a small minority. Then, you have the people in the movement, allowing all of them to do it, as well as not calling the cops when something bad happens.... like RAPE. They made their bed, and now they are going to have to plop down in it. Tho, some of the beds were made by their mothers .

Why is it that the Tea Party managed to do just fine, even with huge opposition, and no support of the media or government?

[garentee]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Then it wouldn't be called the 99%. How many 1%'s are in bed with government? And why are these people so against wallstreet and big business, but not government?

I'm sure there are some fakers in the mix as well, but I seriously doubt that it's more then a small minority. Then, you have the people in the movement, allowing all of them to do it, as well as not calling the cops when something bad happens.... like RAPE. They made their bed, and now they are going to have to plop down in it. Tho, some of the beds were made by their mothers .

Why is it that the Tea Party managed to do just fine, even with huge opposition, and no support of the media or government?

To answer your questions in order...how many 1%ers are in bed with government? Most of the defense and oil companies for sure, other then that I could not say with any real authority and do not feel inclined to olook it up right now..
Why are these people against wallstreet etc and not government?My guess is that there are some there that are against government. Personally I am not totally in favor of big business having as much leeway to regulate itself and I do not think that the free market regulates itself because it is not a free market at this point in time. It is a complex situation because government is clearly not to be trusted and and neither is big business, but there does have to be some form of regulation.. I do not have the answer to what form that is.. but some laws regarding how much influence a corporation or lobbyist can have would be a good place to start..I cannot speak for the thousands of different ideas the occupy people have, but i agree with some of what they say..


I cannot say as though I agree with them not using the police in the case of illegal happenings gooing on in their camp, but I do not really know the situation first hand.. I have not been to one of these things..


No support of the media? Seriously? Every right wing talk show host was creaming their jeans over the Tea Party... and yes they do count as the media....
Why did it go over without a hitch? For one they were there for only a little while, and they were most likely armed... and most participants knew it too....

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Why is it that the Tea Party managed to do just fine, even with huge opposition, and no support of the media or government?

Hahahaha.

The media organized the Tea party.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Hahahaha.

The media organized the Tea party.

Really? What conspiracy theorist site did you get that from? The media ridiculed the tea party at every step of the way.

[MariconesUnited]

I keep forgetting that Fox, Limbaugh etc. keep portraying themselves as ''not'' the media.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

I keep forgetting that Fox, Limbaugh etc. keep portraying themselves as ''not'' the media.

I wonder, when is the last time you've watched or read fox news, or listened to Limbaugh, to know that?

[MariconesUnited]

From time to time I'll click on links online. It's well known that the right-wing media astroturfed the whole thing.

[Peterw]

Originally Posted by garentee

That is not the point of my post. The point is that the sentiment is out there and there are more people getting on board with it as time goes on... There will most likely be a protest movement of a different nature.. but the sentiment is not going away...It is my belief that some of the trouble makers within the movement are not within the movement to begin with, but interlopers using the cover of the protest movement to do their misdeeds and perhaps discredit the movement itself.. It has been known to happen before....

I agree with this and I think as time goes by people will protest in a smarter more effective way - like moving their money out of the big banks.

I believe that the key to addressing the 99% vs 1% issue is for people in the 99% to take some kind of creative action to even out the imbalance.

The internet has and is completely changing the game, kids are becoming billionaires, anyone can become a top blogger/tweeter and not only get their message out to millions of people but build up their own big businesses from next to nothing with very little risk or start up funds.

The financial markets where all this wealth is stored is open to anyone who decides to open up a trading account ans spend a bit of time learning the ropes and risking failure until they get it right.

The playing field is being levelled and gradual change is happening. I think it may be a good thing for these people to go home and regroup and start thinking about how to actually bring about the change they want. The answer clearly isn't camping out on Wall St, nor is it forcing people to pay more tax to governments. To me it is a simple matter of using one's energy, creativity and purpose to leverage the mediums we have available to take one's slice of the pie from the big guys.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

T
Why is it that the Tea Party managed to do just fine, even with huge opposition, and no support of the media or government?

so what exactly do you call fox news?

[russianrocket]

And now the violence is finally showing through.

Occupy Wall Street eviction - Protester talking about throwing Molotov Cocktails at Macy's - YouTube!

rogue element? Sure. Notice no one disagreeing with them, and people getting his autograph?