Should Britain leave the EU?

[WarrenG]

68 (as I write this) MPs will vote on Monday for a referendum on whether the UK should:

(a) Stay in the EU
(b) Leave the EU
(c) Renegotiate terms with the EU

Tory MPs | Conservative Home

Option (c) reads to me as "Launch a load of costly and pointless beurocratic fiddling that won't actually lead anywhere."

As I understand things, Cameron has issued a "Three line whip." That was a new one on me, and unfortunately doesn't involve the prime minister actually whipping the first three lines of his government, but it means he's telling them to vote against otherwise they are in big big trouble (like losing their job or something).

What's that all about? Shouldn't they get to vote based on what their constituents tell them to do??? Also, Nick Clegg, who is pro-Europe is saying that a referendum would be a distraction. This is coming from the guy who pushed for the AV referendum earlier this year!

But anyway, the main point.

I'm pretty sure that if the referendum went ahead, people would vote to leave, barring some massive campaign to persuade them otherwise (which is possible). But I literally have no idea whether the UK should stay in the EU or not. The referendum would take place next in 2013, so there's plenty of time to learn.

What do you think? Should the UK stay or should it go?

What are the consequences of leaving the EU? Is it bad for the UK? Is it bad for Europe?

What would you prefer to happen?

[Agota]

What are the reasons UK wants to leave EU?

Is it uncontrollable flow of immigrants or what?

[WarrenG]

The MPs want the referendum because the EU has changed a lot since the UK joined it, and the thing that it is now isn't the thing that people voted to join all those years ago, therefore there should be a referendum on whether people want to be in the thing that it is now.

Apparently a poll in the Daily Mail found that 64% would vote to stay in rather than leave. And that's a right-leaning paper, so I'd imagine that's an underestimate compared to the country overall. Not what I thought but there you go!

[JDuff]

I see the concerns of the Euro-Skeptics as being two-fold. The first is the issue of democratic sovereignty. Democratically elected governments around Europe have their hands tied in certain policy areas, and are not free to make their own laws.

The argument goes the powers of this country have been given away to unelected people without the consent of the democratic citizens of this country.

Secondly, its a claim about the consequences of this. Firstly, you might argue about the negative effects of abiding by these laws, or the economic consequences, or whatever. I think these Euro-Skeptics want a trade deal similar to Norway, but without the loss of freedom as a country to be ruled by Brussels.

[metamorph]

The UK likes cherry picking, but why would they leave the EU? They do not have the Euro, but still have their own currency...

[newmark]

There's no reason yet to leave the EU. It has changed away from what it was when the UK joined, and I think that many would not have voted to join if they had known the true intentions of EU. That is to become a federal union.

I think most British people see the EU as a trading block, and are not interested in being controlled by a federal European government. There are so many changes happening within the EU at the moment, that it's better to wait and see what happens. Other countries may be forced to leave, or the nature of the Union may change yet again.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by metamorph

The UK likes cherry picking, but why would they leave the EU? They do not have the Euro, but still have their own currency...

The UK wants to leave the EU, because:

1. London is the financial centre of Europe; and
2. EU is passing all kinds of laws that strangle the banks.

The UK will be the loser here, you see ......

[WarrenG]

The UK wants to leave the EU, because:

Why does the UK want to stay though? The prime minister says he expects anyone who votes for the referendum to resign.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

2. EU is passing all kinds of laws that strangle the banks.

Oh I didn't know that, what kind of laws?

The UK will be the loser here, you see ......

Loser if they stay or loser if they go?

[Peterw]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Oh I didn't know that, what kind of laws?

Exclusive: City Warns Osborne On Tobin Tax | george_osborne | tobin_tax | financial_transactions_tax | Kleinman | Sky News Blogs

There are other laws they try and pass as well. We didn't elect them to pass laws for us.. Does anyone know of a simple table that shows the pros and cons of EU membership for the UK?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Oh I didn't know that, what kind of laws?

It's called EMIR ..... Google and see

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

The UK wants to leave the EU, because:

1. London is the financial centre of Europe; and
2. EU is passing all kinds of laws that strangle the banks.

The UK will be the loser here, you see ......

I see. I don't know or understand the issue as a whole, however, I would believe that, banks aside, the UK would still be better off with the EU than without it. The same applies to Germany, which would have just as much reason to leave the sinking ship....

[Peterw]

This is freaking hilarious

Eurozone debt crisis: Nicolas Sarkozy 'sick' of David Cameron's advice | Mail Online

‘We’re sick of you criticising us and telling us what to do,’ the French leader is said to have told the Prime Minister in Brussels. ‘You say you hate the euro, you didn’t want to join and now you want to interfere in our meetings.’

[WarrenG]

Denied! Parliament voted against, though there were 111 dissenters.

So no referendum, but lots of drama.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Peterw

Does anyone know of a simple table that shows the pros and cons of EU membership for the UK?

Here are some arguments against:

The Tory Diary | Conservative Home

[Brutha]

The MPs want the referendum because the EU has changed a lot since the UK joined it, and the thing that it is now isn't the thing that people voted to join all those years ago, therefore there should be a referendum on whether people want to be in the thing that it is now.

What do you mean when you say "people voted to join all those years ago"?
Which vote are you refering to?

The UK wants to leave the EU, because:

1. London is the financial centre of Europe; and
2. EU is passing all kinds of laws that strangle the banks.

I don't think that's the case, I think the UK bankers are on the whole pretty cosmopolitan and pro-EU.
I think the opposition to the EU comes rather from other political fractions.

[Acting Like Godot]

I'm not giving a casual, off-the-cuff opinion here, dear Brutha.

I have a very good idea of what's going on. EMIR legislation and the U.S. Dodd-Frank legislation have extra-territorial effects, so folks like me in Asia have to stay updated on these developments.

I get on all these conference calls with my colleagues in New York, London, Frankfurt etc, you see, and I hear from them what's happening.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Brutha

What do you mean when you say "people voted to join all those years ago"?
Which vote are you refering to?

I was referring to a referendum in 1975 on whether Britain should stay in what was then the EEC, also called the Common Market.

United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum, 1975 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Curtis2011]

As a non-British citizen... I have no idea.