Stand With The Wall Street Protesters

[Andrew Gubb]

I know there's another thread going on about Wall Street but I didn't want this to get lost in the pages.

Avaaz is doing a campaign to stand with the protesters. Let's all sign. It's a way we can show our support even if we can't be there physically.

Avaaz - The World vs Wall Street

[russianrocket]

Never signing anything for these young uppity college liberals who want the world handed to them.

[Gabo]

It's the banks that are getting the world handed to them through massive government bailouts that come at the cost of the rest of us, not to mention the currency devaluation that also robs the middle class to benefit the banking class.

Is it asking for the world to be handed to us because we want the government to end its favoritism for the banks, and treat everyone equally?

[garentee]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Never signing anything for these young uppity college liberals who want the world handed to them.

How convenient is it that this is what the media wants you to believe so that people will discredit this "movement"..The reality is that there are people of all ages that are frustrated and pissed off by crony capitalism...and the utter BULLShiza that the bankers have gotten away with...

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Never signing anything for these young uppity college liberals who want the world handed to them.

That's a pretty ignorant thing to say. Surely some people who want things handed to them will probably melt into the crowd but there's people of all ages, professions and beliefs involved in these protests popping up all over the country. The most important part is that the American public is finally being riled out of complacency. The unfortunate part is that the protesters aren't exactly sure what they're trying to say or perhaps they're not getting at the most important things. The focus of the protests will probably become more clear as it progresses but the way I see it is that people are pointing out that what we're doing is totally unsustainable in a number of ways here.

Most of the people who want everything handed to them are largely at home collecting government checks probably hoping this all blows over.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by garentee

How convenient is it that this is what the media wants you to believe so that people will discredit this "movement"..The reality is that there are people of all ages that are frustrated and pissed off by crony capitalism...and the utter BULLShiza that the bankers have gotten away with...

how convenient is it that you want us to believe the opposite, to credit this movement. The media is telling lies, but what ever it is that YOU'RE reading is the absolute truth.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

That's a pretty ignorant thing to say. Surely some people who want things handed to them will probably melt into the crowd but there's people of all ages, professions and beliefs involved in these protests popping up all over the country. The most important part is that the American public is finally being riled out of complacency. The unfortunate part is that the protesters aren't exactly sure what they're trying to say or perhaps they're not getting at the most important things. The focus of the protests will probably become more clear as it progresses but the way I see it is that people are pointing out that what we're doing is totally unsustainable in a number of ways here.

Most of the people who want everything handed to them are largely at home collecting government checks probably hoping this all blows over.

Call it what you want, but the people who started this, were mostly college students who couldn't get a job, after getting their degree. And yes, they are liberals. And yes, none of them have a set goal, and most of them have no clue why they are even there. The same people who are out there, are the same people who voted for open. College students flooded the polls in droves, and that's exactly what they are doing now. And, they want their dear leader for a second term, to fix all the problems for them.

Everything I've seen about this, is people who want free college, and free everything. They want Obama to give them everything.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

That's a pretty ignorant thing to say. Surely some people who want things handed to them will probably melt into the crowd but there's people of all ages, professions and beliefs involved in these protests popping up all over the country. The most important part is that the American public is finally being riled out of complacency. The unfortunate part is that the protesters aren't exactly sure what they're trying to say or perhaps they're not getting at the most important things. The focus of the protests will probably become more clear as it progresses but the way I see it is that people are pointing out that what we're doing is totally unsustainable in a number of ways here.

Most of the people who want everything handed to them are largely at home collecting government checks probably hoping this all blows over.

To me they're making a message -- like you say, waking people out of complacency; a message that things need to change, they're not sustainable, they're not right like this.

The message is very generalised and focused on a thousand different things, but that's the underlying meaning that comes through.

And I think that's a message worth spreading. I think it's very important that this is happening right now.

[russianrocket]

these people consider themselves the "99%'s".

while 99% of the rest of the world, considers them the "1%'s"

Unless their message is to make government smaller, then their message is useless, pointless, and lazy. Lazy, in that they need the government to do everything for them.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

these people consider themselves the "99%'s".

while 99% of the rest of the world, considers them the "1%'s"

Unless their message is to make government smaller, then their message is useless, pointless, and lazy. Lazy, in that they need the government to do everything for them.

Maybe you need to broaden your scope. If government is the problem then we need to get rid of it not make it smaller. I don't think it's that simple though. Corporate greed and the corporate welfare system that has been put in place are at the heart of the problem. I don't think the system is sustainable and I think we should be looking at peaceful options to make things better for everyone. We keep dividing ourselves over the silliest of little differences. We can do so much better in terms of education, healthcare, science, cooperation and in the way that we organize our lives together.

If you have such a problem with lazy people have you considered that lazy people have a problem with the way things are run? How are people to react when they lose their jobs, their homes, their cars while the government bails out the auto industries and the banks? What are you supposed to do if you get a degree only to find out that there are no opportunities available whatsoever? At some point you give up. That's not lazyness that's human nature. These people are expected to give up on their dreams and take ♥♥♥♥ jobs to make ends meet. They're noticing that they're growing in numbers and that things aren't quite right, so they decided to voice their dissatisfaction instead. Good for them and good for everyone!

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Never signing anything for these young uppity college liberals who want the world handed to them.

I wouldn't think that people who want things handed to them would even sully their hands or reputations participating in a ghastly protest (Oh no)

People who want things handed to them would let other people do the protesting for them, wouldn't they? By definition, they don't want to do any of the work to get what they want.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

these people consider themselves the "99%'s".

while 99% of the rest of the world, considers them the "1%'s"

Unless their message is to make government smaller, then their message is useless, pointless, and lazy. Lazy, in that they need the government to do everything for them.

You're piling them all into one category of "socialists" when there are thousands and thousands of people from all walks of life participating. Surely they aren't all "young, college liberals", right?

I agree with the lazy part though, but that's humans...we are lazy, and we are so used to having governments do everything that it's no wonder we are lazy. It's been going on since roman times, so how can you expect people to just get over being lazy when it's so entrenched in our way of life?

We allowed ourselves to get hoodwinked into giving our power away centuries ago...and it's time we took it back, but that's centuries worth of habit to break out of isn't it.

You're quick to judge and slow to understand.

[pjhaggerty]

Calling the protesters liberal misses the point. They are too diverse of a group to be reliably called a liberal movement. The protest is designed to be a diverse, distributed, muddled mess. It is neither liberal nor conservative- there are people who would identify as both groups participating.

The big point of the protesters is that the wall street banks are causing a problem in society. Beyond that they are more or less deliberately shunning identification as a liberal or conservative movement.

It is much more similar to the protests in egypt, tunisia, etc. that happened this spring than to "liberal" protests such as the anti-war movement in the 60s and 70s. That is, it's a diverse cross-section of society angered by wall street greed- and only that. Beyond that one basic premise, very little will probably unite the protesters as far as ideology, demographics, or messages goes.

Read John Robb on "open source protests" for more details on this view of things.

[Bliss Sage]

Sorry, it's bullcrap that they don't know what they want or what they're doing there. Has no one seen this?!

Keith Olbermann Reads The Statement Released By The Wall Street Protesters - 2011-10-05 - YouTube

They don't leave a single thing out of this list! Nothing that I can think of anyway.

And there is no one else in the world who thinks they are the 1% .
They absolutely represent me!

[garentee]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

how convenient is it that you want us to believe the opposite, to credit this movement. The media is telling lies, but what ever it is that YOU'RE reading is the absolute truth.

Clearly your head is in the sand as to how the corporate world actually is not interested in liberty or justice... only profit. And they are in bed with our government.. both parties... It has been this way for quite a long while.. and your stubborn viewpoint only helps perpetuate their attacks on our freedom.. I am hugely skeptical of anyone who wraps themselves in the flag and says they are for liberty when they also support the kind of outright criminality that the corporations are allowed to get away with.. I do not have all of the answers as to how we ought to proceed, I do know though that it is vastly important that we do not behave as a society the way our corporations (government) does... \

[Cado]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Call it what you want, but the people who started this, were mostly college students who couldn't get a job, after getting their degree. And yes, they are liberals. And yes, none of them have a set goal, and most of them have no clue why they are even there. The same people who are out there, are the same people who voted for open. College students flooded the polls in droves, and that's exactly what they are doing now. And, they want their dear leader for a second term, to fix all the problems for them.

Everything I've seen about this, is people who want free college, and free everything. They want Obama to give them everything.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

They're attacking Wall Street for a reason. Smaller government wouldn't mean dick if corporations were still in control. That is first and foremost what this is about.

I'd also say those kids you mention are well within their right to be pissed because they've done everything they've been told to do and now they're under a mountain of debt without a means to pay it off. The social contract has been broken, the middle-class life they've been promised by institutions is not materializing even though they have their degree and search day and night for work.

That's not a desire to be "handed" anything-it's justifiable outrage at being stuck with student loans they can't wipe away through bankruptcy while major companies are handed trillions of dollars to keep afloat, many of whom either don't need it or misappropriated it. We have socialism for the upper class and capitalism for everyone else. It's a rigged game and if we don't change that we're just gonna rearrange chairs on the Titanic.

Edit: Oh, and concerning your 99%/1% comment-the same people they're protesting are partly responsible for the poverty in other parts of the world, and if people don't speak up now we're gonna see poverty on that level in areas of first world countries one or two decades from now. The economy isn't a magic engine that will suddenly sputter to life a few years from now and everything will go back to the way it was. Things have changed, and if the playing field isn't leveled somehow anyone who isn't super-wealthy is going to be $%^#ed.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

how convenient is it that you want us to believe the opposite, to credit this movement. The media is telling lies, but what ever it is that YOU'RE reading is the absolute truth.

I don't know that anyone said that. The entire movement isn't comprised of the best and brightest, I can tell you that merely through the law of averages applied to the size of the crowd. That doesn't mean there isn't a coherent center behind it all, another valid side to this story the media isn't telling-and is probably skewing for ratings and/or profit.

The people being protested own the media, have ties to it, or know people in the business. What do you think the mainstream media is going to say? Come on, you've got a fairly good head on your shoulders. There's no way you can honestly believe that everything the television spouts is the truth.

"Kill the OTC Derivative Market-Outlaw Credit Default Swaps"

That's not a protest sign you're going to see on the news. They can't even keep their own coverage straight. For reference, I'll link to a post I made in the other thread: Wall Street Protests

[russianrocket]

lol you people sure get riled up pretty easy : D .

Alright, lets see, where did I leave off.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I wouldn't think that people who want things handed to them would even sully their hands or reputations participating in a ghastly protest (Oh no)

People who want things handed to them would let other people do the protesting for them, wouldn't they? By definition, they don't want to do any of the work to get what they want.

Doesn't take much to protest for free stuff. Hell, I used to do what they are doing when I was younger. We called it camping back then tho.

They have nothing else to do, so why not hang out with like minded people all day long? Doesn't take away from lazyiness tho.

The definition of lazy, can mean many of things.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Maybe you need to broaden your scope. If government is the problem then we need to get rid of it not make it smaller. I don't think it's that simple though. Corporate greed and the corporate welfare system that has been put in place are at the heart of the problem. I don't think the system is sustainable and I think we should be looking at peaceful options to make things better for everyone. We keep dividing ourselves over the silliest of little differences. We can do so much better in terms of education, healthcare, science, cooperation and in the way that we organize our lives together.

If you have such a problem with lazy people have you considered that lazy people have a problem with the way things are run? How are people to react when they lose their jobs, their homes, their cars while the government bails out the auto industries and the banks? What are you supposed to do if you get a degree only to find out that there are no opportunities available whatsoever? At some point you give up. That's not lazyness that's human nature. These people are expected to give up on their dreams and take ♥♥♥♥ jobs to make ends meet. They're noticing that they're growing in numbers and that things aren't quite right, so they decided to voice their dissatisfaction instead. Good for them and good for everyone!

We don't need to get rid of it. Government is meant to serve a purpose. It's just over reaching in their power, because everyone keeps wanting them to do more and more work for them.

the free market works, when the government stays out of it. no more giving any business money. Let banks fail if they run out of money. Stay out of health care. There is no such thing as too big to fail. The way to "protest" is to not buy their stuff, or buy from someone else.


Lazy people have a problem with how things are run? Sucks for them? As I've said, use the system to your own advantage. Anyone not lazy, can do ANYTHING in this country. I don't care who or what you are. A black man with no real work history, became president. People have gone to become rich, from every single type of existence.

Who told them to have those dreams? Who's fault is it that they were told college will get you a good job? I was told that, and I didn't listen, and I went my own direction. My brothers listened, and even tho they got degrees, they have not used their degrees. They went other directions, and succeeded. We came here with nothing in our pockets. This IS the land of opportunity, no matter what these protestors say.

I wonder what types of degrees these people actually have... hmm.

You lose your home, your car and anything else, when you over reach in your spending. When you buy a house that's too much, and the value goes under, and you have a huge loan. You lose your car the same way. Getting a huge loan, or taking all the equity out of your home, and wasting it. live thrifty, and save money, and you won't come into that type of problem very easily. You have people on this board who live in their vans, and work.

What, are these people to good for that? Are they too good for crap jobs? The people that built the smart phones they all seem to have, work twice as hard as them, and make $3 an hour at best. My dad came here and cleaned up after old people, for $4 an hour, while feeding a family of 5. Don't talk to me about them not wanting to take crap jobs to make ends meat. The cost of living is proportionate to the type of lifestyle you want.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Cado

You have no idea what you're talking about.

They're attacking Wall Street for a reason. Smaller government wouldn't mean dick if corporations were still in control. That is first and foremost what this is about.

I'd also say those kids you mention are well within their right to be pissed because they've done everything they've been told to do and now they're under a mountain of debt without a means to pay it off. The social contract has been broken, the middle-class life they've been promised by institutions is not materializing even though they have their degree and search day and night for work.

That's not a desire to be "handed" anything-it's justifiable outrage at being stuck with student loans they can't wipe away through bankruptcy while major companies are handed trillions of dollars to keep afloat, many of whom either don't need it or misappropriated it. We have socialism for the upper class and capitalism for everyone else. It's a rigged game and if we don't change that we're just gonna rearrange chairs on the Titanic.

Edit: Oh, and concerning your 99%/1% comment-the same people they're protesting are partly responsible for the poverty in other parts of the world, and if people don't speak up now we're gonna see poverty on that level in areas of first world countries one or two decades from now. The economy isn't a magic engine that will suddenly sputter to life a few years from now and everything will go back to the way it was. Things have changed, and if the playing field isn't leveled somehow anyone who isn't super-wealthy is going to be $%^#ed.

Corporations pay the government, so that the government gives them money and better opportunities. I know exactly what I'm talking about, thank you. When the government doesn't let the business fail, then that is the governments fault, not the business.

There is no social contract. That's such bull. I hate when people bring that up. NO ONE signed this contract you keep speaking of. NO one deserves anything, and no one is obligated to do anything for anyone else. You earn things, and you choose what you give out.

" oh they were told to do this! It's not their fault!"

Everything is our fault. What the hell is wrong with this mindset lately, that everything is everyone's fault but ours. We create our own reality. We make our own choices and decisions. Poor become rich and rich become poor. poor stay poor and rich stay rich. I got a mountain of debt. I'm not whining or complaining about it. I'm not blaming anyone for it. It was MY decision to make, no one elses. It's my burden to bear, and I will bear it.

They'd all love for their debt to be paid off, and go to college for free. Try to deny that. The whole mentality I'm seeing is gimmie gimmie gimmie.

If we keep heading the way we are, then yeah, 1st world economy is going to go down the crapper, I'm sure. And it all comes down to government control.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

There is no social contract. That's such bull. I hate when people bring that up. NO ONE signed this contract you keep speaking of. NO one deserves anything, and no one is obligated to do anything for anyone else. You earn things, and you choose what you give out.

Yes there is. It's not explicit, it's not signed, but the crux of it is that those who have give opportunities to those who don't. Opportunities-not handouts. -I'm- not arguing that anybody is owed anything more than that, but when so few own so much we absolutely deserve that.

That's how they argue for stimulus money and things of the like-"we employ people, we create jobs, the economy will fail without us." What happens when they get the money? If the last few years are any indication, they raise their profits, lay more people off and nothing improves. It's a power grab, and while I'm all for free enterprise enough is enough. This isn't capitalism, it's corporatism.

Everything is our fault. What the hell is wrong with this mindset lately, that everything is everyone's fault but ours. We create our own reality. We make our own choices and decisions. Poor become rich and rich become poor. poor stay poor and rich stay rich. I got a mountain of debt. I'm not whining or complaining about it. I'm not blaming anyone for it. It was MY decision to make, no one elses. It's my burden to bear, and I will bear it.

Yeah, you made the choice, as did everyone else in that position. I'm not arguing against their responsibility, I'm saying the information presented when they made the decision-on top of all the other societal pressures-influenced them to do something which was ultimately detrimental to their livelihood, at least so long as jobs remain scarce.

If someone wants to take responsibility for their own lives after landing in that position, I think changing the system is a perfectly valid course of action. It's not entirely what screwed them over but when you think you've got no other option and that option leaves you worse than you started it's impossible to argue it's not part of the picture.

They'd all love for their debt to be paid off, and go to college for free. Try to deny that. The whole mentality I'm seeing is gimmie gimmie gimmie.

Oh give me a break. You're beating that strawman so hard you're covered in the stuff.

If we keep heading the way we are, then yeah, 1st world economy is going to go down the crapper, I'm sure. And it all comes down to government control.

No, it comes down to corporate control over the government. We do not have a democracy, politicians won't listen to us as long as corporations line their pockets and have their finger on the trigger when it comes to the economy. If we want the government to actually work for its people this is the first place we have to strike.

[russianrocket]

Occupy Wall Street: Shocking photos show protester defecating on POLICE CAR | Mail Online

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

lol you people sure get riled up pretty easy : D .

Alright, lets see, where did I leave off.

You can talk.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Doesn't take much to protest for free stuff. Hell, I used to do what they are doing when I was younger. We called it camping back then tho.

They have nothing else to do, so why not hang out with like minded people all day long? Doesn't take away from lazyiness tho.

The definition of lazy, can mean many of things.

Maybe you're right?

[Gabo]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

the free market works, when the government stays out of it. no more giving any business money. Let banks fail if they run out of money. Stay out of health care. There is no such thing as too big to fail. The way to "protest" is to not buy their stuff, or buy from someone else.

I think a majority of protestors would agree with most of these statements. People are upset and protesting because the government bails out the banking industry and big corporations. Yes, some people think we should all be bailed out, but many more would not be upset in the first place if the banks and corporations hadn't been given handouts while the people lose their jobs and homes.

What this movement needs is a focus, and I'm pretty sure the focus on ending corporate and banking handouts to create a fair economic system is one thing that 99% of us can actually agree upon, so let's make that the focus!

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

the free market works, when the government stays out of it.

So true! Pesky minimum wage laws and anti-trust laws! Extremely large multinationals and monopolies have our best interests at heart

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

So true! Pesky minimum wage laws and anti-trust laws! Extremely large multinationals and monopolies have our best interests at heart

The voice of the people decides that. We choose where we want to work. The government forces you to raise your pay, and they will just raise the cost of goods. One way or another people will pay, when government forces companies to do something. It's not their jobs to do that! If people really cared that much, then they wouldn't buy from companies like that. Yet, as we see, people are more then willing to buy apple products, build on the backs of young Chinese kids.

The only thing governments should do to intervene, is in drastic situations like monopolies and various other scenarios. I've said it before, that government does have a purpose. It's just over reaching it. And now, everyone has moved over seas. Yay for government!

[pjhaggerty]

When you say "the free market works" what do you mean?

In my opinion, the free market does not work for the general betterment of all people. In other words, if you let the free market run rampant, it won't enrich everybody, or even society as a whole.

Saying "the free market works" is just like saying "communism works". Sure, communism works- it works to impoverish and oppress people. Sure, the free market works- it works to enrich corporations and impoverish workers.

I don't think you can really argue that workers would be better off in a free market society compared to a more socialized society such as exist in western european countries. Seems to me that workers would be better off with socialized health care, and social safety net programs.

I would argue that business owners would be better off in a laissez faire free market society compared to a more socialized society.

I think the majority of society is workers, not business owners, and therefore the majority of society would be better off in a more socialized society compared to a free market society.

Saying the free market "works" doesn't really get to the heart of it. You have to explore or explain what a free market works to do.

While there are advantages and disadvantages to any economic system, it's important to explore those and understand them. A free market system is not perfect, neither is a more socialized system. Turning American society into a completely free market system would likely bring back the kind of social unrest and labor unrest that happened when we had such a system at the turn of the century- the 1890s. The free market is not a solution to all of society's issues.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Gabo

I'm pretty sure the focus on ending corporate and banking handouts to create a fair economic system is one thing that 99% of us can actually agree upon, so let's make that the focus!

In case you didn't realise, most of the US banks already paid the government back the bailout money, quite some time back. Banks which have fully repaid their bailout money include:

Bank of America
JP Morgan
Wells Fargo
Goldman Sachs
Morgan Stanley
U.S Bancorp
American Express
Bank of New York Mellon
State Street Corporation