Stand With The Wall Street Protesters

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by garentee

Source?

History books. I always thought it was common knowledge, till he mentioned that white came and "captured" slaves. Guess knowledge isn't always common. Slavery in Africa was going in for centuries before white got there . We just took advantage of the already setup slave trade. Different tribes would capture members of other tribes. They also had indentured servitude. Look it up, you'd be surprised. White guilt has kept most from actually looking into it...

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Slavery in Africa was going in for centuries before white got there . We just took advantage of the already setup slave trade. Different tribes would capture members of other tribes. They also had indentured servitude.

Yes, all of which, of course, justifies the Anglo-American slave trade completely.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

No, I'm' not suggesting that. But getting off your ass, so you can go protest, on your ass, doesn't accomplish anything. It creates more and more hate, and more and more cultural clash. People protesting against what they don't want. What people should be doing is creating unity and getting people together to CREATE, not to DESTROY. These people who are leading these things can create foundations, charities, technical schools, and companies to employee these protesters. But no, instead they are out protesting the system. Which is where you are putting the blame on. You say I put words in your mouth, but who are you blaming things on? Obviously not the people. There isn't a solution for all of them. There is never a solution for everything. No one here is trying to claim that. But, 40,000,000 people, and non of them can do anything? All the people protesting, and non of them can actually accomplish anything on their own? There aren't any Steve Pavillans out there? The leaders of the protests, aren't capable of doing something better then protesting?


Bunker Roy: Learning from a barefoot movement | Video on TED.com

Look at that guy. THAT is a leader. Not these wanabee leaders on the streets. Getting people to actually create things out of nothing. No excuses. No education from most of the people. Barely any money. Yet, some how THEY manage to do it, but Westerners, with access to almost anything, can't?


Now that Obama is trying to take hold of the groups, we will see what happens.

Success is the best revenge, someone once said.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

Yes, all of which, of course, justifies the slave trade completely.

Yeah, and I put words in YOUR mouth

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Yeah, and I put words in YOUR mouth

It's your inference, pal.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

Yes, all of which, of course, justifies the slave trade completely.

There have always been slaves though. As long as humans have occupied this planet they've used other people to get their projects built or made. It's like everyone wishing for world peace when war is a part of man's nature. People exploit other people. That seems to be how human operate. It's ugly as hell, but that's part of us. It's shameful from one point of view and logical from the point of view of kings and rulers. How else would they ever get anything done?

Humans are inventive. They like to invent new things and create stuff, and someone has to build and make the stuff once it's invented. It makes sense that the more people making the stuff, the more stuff gets made and the quicker it gets made too.

Slavery sucks, but without slaves we never would have gotten as far as we did. Unless we can all start learning to consume less and build things for ourselves, slave trade will never be abolished.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

It's your inference, pal.

Pal, no it wasn't. You're Misreading. Anyone else see what solo is seeing?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Pal, no it wasn't. You're Misreading. Anyone else see what solo is seeing?

I don't know, but I have had a HELL of a lot of people tell me what I reeeally meant, when it was nothing like what I really meant and they read too much into it, or took it the wrong way and then were too stubborn to admit they were wrong, so I know it happens here all the time.

People think they are reading intent of the person, when they really don't know their intent.

I saw Mariconneunited read too into what you said before. I saw that lady on the 'living with parents' thread totally take what you said and twist it, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's happening now too.
I wouldn't expect an apology rr.

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Gotta correct you on one point. Whites did not go to Africa and capture blacks. They went to Africa, and bought slaves from BLACK slave traders. Traders that were slave trading long before us Americans went over there. The supply was already there before we came with demand. Blacks need to go over to Africa and demand reputations from their brothers, instead of us white devils.

According to this statement, you imply that the Anglo-American slavery is justified, due to the fact that slave were already in supply.

Not putting words in your mouth, pal. You make your own implications, here.

But, considering you make no claim to any ethics or morals, then what's wrong with a few centuries of slavery, eh?

[Solipsist]

deleted

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

But, considering you make no claim to any ethics or morals, then what's wrong with a few centuries of slavery, eh?

Maybe he just accepts things the way they really are, and that's why you hear no inference of morals or ethics. He's not trying to win your approval.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

This justifies it, also. There have always been slaves, so ... lets just grab a few more, eh?

No, not at all. And if you read the rest of what I wrote and didn't just pick out one little quote to make your attempt to make me look like I am justifying slavery by putting words into my mouth, then you would see that I said at the end, that slavery will never be abolished unless people start to consume less and build things for themselves.

That inferes that I am against slavery, but I accept that it is part of our ugly human history.

But since you are intent on making me out to be justifying slavery, there's really nothing more I can say to stop you or change your mind.

Think what you will dear.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

According to this statement, you imply that the Anglo-American slavery is justified, due to the fact that slave were already in supply.

Not putting words in your mouth, pal. You make your own implications, here.

But, considering you make no claim to any ethics or morals, then what's wrong with a few centuries of slavery, eh?

Once again, justification for the act itself was never mentioned in my posts. Just that we didn't create slavery nor did we go there and capture them like going over and collecting wild horses. At that time, it was the norm, and a business. Whether justified or not, has no bearing on ANYTHING I have said. Give it up. I haven't brought up morals or ethics.

[garentee]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

History books. I always thought it was common knowledge, till he mentioned that white came and "captured" slaves. Guess knowledge isn't always common. Slavery in Africa was going in for centuries before white got there . We just took advantage of the already setup slave trade. Different tribes would capture members of other tribes. They also had indentured servitude. Look it up, you'd be surprised. White guilt has kept most from actually looking into it...

Not sure I would call it white guilt,in my case I was being lazy and did not look it up before I called you out on that. At the end of the day white or black slave traders are not people that rank very high on my list of people that I have much respect for.. it actually does not matter who it was that was responsible for the slave trade.

[Acting Like Godot]

Anyway I do not see any relevance between "Occupy Wall Street" and slavery.

Seems like no one there is saying "I'm a slave, free me!".

Instead they're saying, "I'm jobless and I have nothing to do all day, gimme a job, damnnit!"

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by garentee

i guess Iraq and Afghanistan do not count as places that have an onging military conflict?

I looked it up again. Sorry, I made an error earlier.

1. The three countries I mentioned are places where there is an ongoing military conflict which started in 2011.

2. Obama declared the Iraq war over in August 2010.

3. As for the US military presence in Afghanistan, that was started by Osama's 911 attacks. Again - nothing to do with any property or corporations.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Anyway I do not see any relevance between "Occupy Wall Street" and slavery.

Seems like no one is saying "I'm a slave, free me!". Instead they're saying, "I'm jobless, gimme a job, damnnit!"

And some would say that is akin to begging to be a slave!

[Acting Like Godot]

The whole idea of being a slave is that it isn't voluntary.

If you fill up the application form, go for the job interview, accept the offer and start work, then you aren't a slave. If you volunteer to do the work, you aren't a slave either.

Otherwise, the moderators in this forum would all be the mini-slaves of Steve Pavlina.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

The whole idea of being a slave is that it isn't voluntary.

If you fill up the application form, go for the job interview, accept the offer and start work, then you aren't a slave. If you volunteer to do the work, you aren't a slave either.

Otherwise, the moderators in this forum would all be the mini-slaves of Steve Pavlina.

Yes true. I was being slightly facetious...what with the winking emoticon and everything.

Choosing to get a job is not slavery. Being forced to work because everything costs money is in a way though. Not many people actually want to work...they HAVE to.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Yes true. I was being slightly facetious...what with the winking emoticon and everything.

Choosing to get a job is not slavery. Being forced to work because everything costs money is in a way though. Not many people actually want to work...they HAVE to.

No one has to work. I know a guy, has a tiny little house, rides a scooter, abd makes bamboo sculptures for people. Doesn't work. Then again, there are things that people do for money that don't consider it work.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Corporations now have every single legal right individuals do, even though a corporation isn't an actual person. They're allowed to donate however much money they want to a candidate now. They have incentives to eliminate their competition and keep the small players small.

Let me explain what a corporation is.

Once upon a time, there's a guy named Maricones. To make a living, he makes and sells widgets.

One day, Maricones realises that if he has some help, he could make and sell more widgets. So he hires Russian Rocket and Elucidate. Russian Rocket will help him to make more widgets. Elucidate will help him to sell them to customers.

After some time, the business grows. Maricones hires a few people to do R&D to improve his widget design (they are called the "Research & Development Department"). Maricones hires a few more people to do sales (they are called the Sales Department"). Maricones hires a few more people to do delivery, obtain raw materials and manage his inventory of widgets (they are called the "Operations Department").

At some point in time, Maricones decides to incorporate his business. There we have it - Maricones Widgets Limited. The main purpose is to limit his personal liability. Maricones has invested $100,000 in his little company, and that is all he is prepared to commit. By incorporating his company with a share capital of $100,000, he achieves that effect.

Time passes. Maricones Widgets Ltd now has grown massively. 30,000 employees in 20 countries. Maricones himself has retired and sold his shares to 20 shareholders. In turn, they IPO'd the company to raise financing for further expansion.

80% of the company is now owned by anyone who wants to buy them. These include the uncles and aunties on the street, many employees, a couple of hedge funds, a few thousand retail investors, including Garentee & Solipsist. They collect some dividends every year, as investors

Meanwhile, Maricones Widgets still has its 30,000 employees. Some are salesmen, some are IT people, some are widget designers, some are widget engineers, some are in marketing, some are from the legal department, some are from Public Relations department, some are from the Finance department, some are directors sitting on the board, some are the janitors and security guards.

What do they want? They all do different things in the company, but basically they want to have a job, do some work and earn a salary.

And ultimately, for all 30,000 employees to continue to earn their salaries,and for the investors to get some dividends, Maricones Widget Limited has to keep on earning money.

THAT is a corporation.

There is nothing inherently evil about big corporations, unless there is something inherently evil about Garentee and Solipsist who bought its shares; or about the janitors who wash its toilets; or its operations personnel who check the widget-making machine everything; or Elucidate who is still selling widgets after all these years; or Russian Rocket who is now Head of Manufacturing, at Maricones Widget Limited.

If there is inherently something evil about big corporations, then there is something inherently evil about human beings - so you might as well go protest against yourself, and your father, and your mother, and your neighbour, and your beer buddy, and your classmates, and your girlfriend etc.

[MariconesUnited]

Nothing inherently evil with corporations. They are paying less than the middle and lower classes. The gap is widening. Straight to the point.

[garentee]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I looked it up again. Sorry, I made an error earlier.

1. The three countries I mentioned are places where there is an ongoing military conflict which started in 2011.

2. Obama declared the Iraq war over in August 2010.

3. As for the US military presence in Afghanistan, that was started by Osama's 911 attacks. Again - nothing to do with any property or corporations.

There does seem to be a lot of money being made from the proliferation of war. I would suggest that corporations have a LOT to do with war. It could be argued also that since the Middle East does happen to have a lot of Oil that these were/are essentially resource wars(Iraq and Afghanistan). The major purveyors of these resources are corporations. Since the government of the US is largely in bed with many multinational corps, there is an awful lot of relevance to the argument that I suggest. In fact I would say that one of the biggest reasons for this whole occupy movement is the apparent marriage of corporations and government.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

No one has to work. I know a guy, has a tiny little house, rides a scooter, abd makes bamboo sculptures for people.

Then the guy's customers tell him, "I love your bamboo sculptures! I'd like to buy 5,000 of them and export them to a few other countries."

So the guy employs 20 other people and trains them to make bamboo sculptures too. They are the "Manufacturing Department".

Then his next problem is that the quality of his bamboo supply is not very good. He hires a few people to look into this - they will source for the best bamboo at good prices, from other sources. They are the "Procurement Department".

Then he realises that he could export his bamboo sculptures overseas himself. He hires a few people and they form his "Operations Department".

Now he is earning so much money, and also he needs to look after his employees, so he forms a "Finance Department" and a "Human Resources Department".

Then the company is getting so big that he cannot manage everything himself. So he picks his top 5 employees and makes them the directors, and together with himself, they form the "Board of Directors".

And so on and so forth, and one day, hey presto, he is a Big Corporation.

[garentee]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Let me explain what a corporation is.

Once upon a time, there's a guy named Maricones. To make a living, he makes and sells widgets.

One day, Maricones realises that if he has some help, he could make and sell more widgets. So he hires Russian Rocket and Elucidate. Russian Rocket will help him to make more widgets. Elucidate will help him to sell them to customers.

After some time, the business grows. Maricones hires a few people to do R&D to improve his widget design (they are called the "Research & Development Department"). Maricones hires a few more people to do sales (they are called the Sales Department"). Maricones hires a few more people to do delivery, obtain raw materials and manage his inventory of widgets (they are called the "Operations Department").

At some point in time, Maricones decides to incorporate his business. There we have it - Maricones Widgets Limited. The main purpose is to limit his personal liability. Maricones has invested $100,000 in his little company, and that is all he is prepared to commit. By incorporating his company with a share capital of $100,000, he achieves that effect.

Time passes. Maricones Widgets Ltd now has grown massively. 30,000 employees in 20 countries. Maricones himself has retired and sold his shares to 20 shareholders. In turn, they IPO'd the company to raise financing for further expansion.

80% of the company is now owned by anyone who wants to buy them. These include the uncles and aunties on the street, many employees, a couple of hedge funds, a few thousand retail investors, including Garentee & Solipsist. They collect some dividends every year, as investors

Meanwhile, Maricones Widgets still has its 30,000 employees. Some are salesmen, some are IT people, some are widget designers, some are widget engineers, some are in marketing, some are from the legal department, some are from Public Relations department, some are from the Finance department, some are directors sitting on the board, some are the janitors and security guards.

What do they want? They all do different things in the company, but basically they want to have a job, do some work and earn a salary.

And ultimately, for all 30,000 employees to continue to earn their salaries,and for the investors to get some dividends, Maricones Widget Limited has to keep on earning money.

THAT is a corporation.

There is nothing inherently evil about big corporations, unless there is something inherently evil about Garentee and Solipsist who bought its shares; or about the janitors who wash its toilets; or its operations personnel who check the widget-making machine everything; or Elucidate who is still selling widgets after all these years; or Russian Rocket who is now Head of Manufacturing, at Maricones Widget Limited.

If there is inherently something evil about big corporations, then there is something inherently evil about human beings - so you might as well go protest against yourself, and your father, and your mother, and your neighbour, and your beer buddy, and your classmates, and your girlfriend etc.

Correct there is nothing inherently evil about corporations.. However there are many many corporations which do some seriously evil things and they get away with it because money talks.. Just ask any of the Indigenous tribes in the Amazon if Conoco, Texaco,Mobil Oil etc have done anything evil...

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by garentee

The major purveyors of these resources are corporations.

Look ... the major purveyors of anything are corporations.

-- I'm typing on a keyboard now. It's from Dell.
-- There's a telephone on my desk. It's from Avaya.
-- I'm wearing a watch. It's from Tissot.
-- I just had a cup of coffee. It's from Starbucks.
-- My computer is running on electricity from Singtel.
-- Oops, my handphone just rang. That's from Apple.
-- Bottle of Vitamin C on my desk. It's from Ocean Health Labs Inc., California, USA.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by garentee

However there are many many corporations which do some seriously evil things and they get away with it because money talks..

You are right about that.

In 2005, 2006 and 2007 when times are good and corporations are hiring and people have jobs, was there anything like "Occupy Wall Street"?

Nope.

Now, times are bad and the corporations are not hiring and people don't have jobs, what happens? The masses suddenly take to the streets and announce that corporations are evil.

[Criseyde]

Why isn't anyone talking about economic inequality in this thread? Did you know that 1% of the US population holds 40% of the nation's wealth? And that real wages have been dropping since the 1980s?

What happens when money concentrates in the hands of a few? This is basic economics.

Who Rules America: Wealth, Income, and Power

If you really want to know what's going on, and why this is happening, read that.

In terms of types of financial wealth, the top one percent of households have 38.3% of all privately held stock, 60.6% of financial securities, and 62.4% of business equity. The top 10% have 80% to 90% of stocks, bonds, trust funds, and business equity, and over 75% of non-home real estate. Since financial wealth is what counts as far as the control of income-producing assets, we can say that just 10% of the people own the United States of America.

[garentee]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

You are right about that.

In 2005, 2006 and 2007 when times are good and corporations are hiring and people have jobs, was there anything like "Occupy Wall Street"?

Nope.

Now, times are bad and the corporations are not hiring and people don't have jobs, what happens? The masses suddenly take to the streets and announce that corporations are evil.

I have heard horror stories about corporations for at least the last 25 years(since I was about 20)and have known that there have been people that have been on the short end of the stick since before that time.. The reason this is happening is not only because of the recent downturn but also because of the corruption and marriage of government and corporations.. it has been coming for a long long time..Since the 1980s at least...Wages have been stagnant for 30 years..

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by garentee

I have heard horror stories about corporations for at least the last 25 years

I am not terribly impressed by this statement, because there are all kinds of corporations in the world.

Some sell flowers. Others publish books. Some build homes. Others sell holidays. Some cook food. Some sell gold. Some make clothes. Some sell boats. Some sell Internet subscription packages. Some make chairs. Some sell bottles. Some sell conferences. Some make movies. Some build roads. Some make shoes. Some sell medicines. Some make cooking pots. Some make watches. Some run schools. Some make planes. Some sell pencils. Some make glass. Some build airports. Some make cameras. Some make rubber hoses. Some sell spectacles. Some make bricks. Some sell carpets. Some make chocolates. Some grow fruits. Some make golf clubs. Some sell electrical plugs. Some refine oil. Some make paint. Some sell radios. Some make space rocket parts. Some sell condoms. Some offer bus services. Some operate gyms. Some run hotels. Some sell server space. Some manufacture batteries. Some sell burgers. Some sell beds and mattresses.

I don't think you can make any easy generalisations about corporations inflicting horror on the world.