Stand With The Wall Street Protesters

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

I have very little input into how the system works. And a lot of people feel exactly the same way. Sorry, but the problem is the system.

I see both angles--the problem is the system that grew out of what the politicians and corporations (i.e., people) created.

[stanmrak]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Never signing anything for these young uppity college liberals who want the world handed to them.

Me, I'm grateful that someone is willing to stand up and let the banks, the corporations and their lobbyists and the politicians know that we're on to them, we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore. You don't look independently wealthy - that means that you're getting screwed as well and that these people are out there fighting for you. Be grateful - you don't have to agree with all their political viewpoints.

The other thing I'm grateful for out of Occupy is that we're getting to see how much freedom we really don't have - we're living in a police state. Ask anyone who lived in pre-Nazi Germany. They did the same things our government is doing now.

[James Fletcher]

Originally Posted by stanmrak

Me, I'm grateful that someone is willing to stand up and let the banks, the corporations and their lobbyists and the politicians know that we're on to them, we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore. You don't look independently wealthy - that means that you're getting screwed as well and that these people are out there fighting for you. Be grateful - you don't have to agree with all their political viewpoints.

The other thing I'm grateful for out of Occupy is that we're getting to see how much freedom we really don't have - we're living in a police state. Ask anyone who lived in pre-Nazi Germany. They did the same things our government is doing now.

Yeah and things would be much worse under the People's United Republics of America.

[firenexx]

The only reason I mention student loans as opposed to mortgages is that they are similar in many ways (they are given to idiots with no money and are very large) and they created yet another "bubble" that is most certainly going to pop.

$8500 a year? Maybe that's the tuition-only price for a community college. I went to a relatively cheap state university and including tuition, food, room and board, transportation, books ($500 a semester for some students), and even with a in-state discount, it was over $18,000 a year. I paid for a lot of it out of pocket, of course, but there is something very wrong with that -
The decision is made when you are 17! Still in high school! Most kids don't know enough to question the system yet. They just know what parents and guidance counselors tell them. Nobody even tells them that dorms are twice or three times as expensive as apartments, and the meal plan is twice as expensive as the grocery store. Pardon me for trying to shirk my responsibility, but these were contracts I entered when I was a kid, and everybody was telling me it was the right thing to do. If I knew then what I knew now, maybe it would be different - but I don't think financial institutions or colleges want young students to know that they are making a bad decision.

[stanmrak]

From today's Huffington Post.

This week, as police shut down the Occupy encampment in Los Angeles, a trio of stories fortified the movement's fundamental argument about the two-tiered nature of our democracy.
First up was a report on how, in July 2008, then-Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson gave a group of Wall Street cronies inside information on the rescue of Fannie and Freddie.
Then came word that, in the midst of the financial meltdown, the Fed had secretly loaned banks $7.7 trillion with absolutely no strings attached (and at virtually no interest) -- loans the banks used to turn a $13 billion profit (while foreclosures escalated and small businesses struggled to get loans).
Finally, heroic Judge Jed Rakoff's rejection of a sweetheart fraud settlement the SEC had gift-wrapped for Citigroup turned a spotlight on how the public interest is routinely sacrificed on the altar of expediency, and how the lack of accountability makes it much more likely that the wrongdoers will do wrong again and again without paying a real price.

This is what Occupy is mad about - why wouldn't anyone (except the super-rich) support their outrage? They're not making any demands that these things be fixed in a certain way - just asking to put a stop to it.

[siryessir08]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Corporations pay the government, so that the government gives them money and better opportunities. I know exactly what I'm talking about, thank you. When the government doesn't let the business fail, then that is the governments fault, not the business.

There is no social contract. That's such bull. I hate when people bring that up. NO ONE signed this contract you keep speaking of. NO one deserves anything, and no one is obligated to do anything for anyone else. You earn things, and you choose what you give out.

" oh they were told to do this! It's not their fault!"

Everything is our fault. What the hell is wrong with this mindset lately, that everything is everyone's fault but ours. We create our own reality. We make our own choices and decisions. Poor become rich and rich become poor. poor stay poor and rich stay rich. I got a mountain of debt. I'm not whining or complaining about it. I'm not blaming anyone for it. It was MY decision to make, no one elses. It's my burden to bear, and I will bear it.

They'd all love for their debt to be paid off, and go to college for free. Try to deny that. The whole mentality I'm seeing is gimmie gimmie gimmie.

If we keep heading the way we are, then yeah, 1st world economy is going to go down the crapper, I'm sure. And it all comes down to government control.

I've really enjoyed the responses you have baited out of the others. It gives me hope for the world. I think we really need to start formally organizing specifically against the Fed, and move on from there.

People like you will be an obstacle; however. The Steve Pavlina community is mostly filled with people with a deep love for humanity... thoughtful people who want to work toward a better world.

Unfortunately it's deeply ingrained into our consciousness (by design) that people without jobs are lazy. We've been told that if someone doesn't have work, they deserve it. We've been told that we can't follow our passions because we have to pay the bills. "If you want to make the world a more beautiful place, and major in art... then *$%$ you... you can get a job at McDonalds. You're 'art' is worthless. You would be serving the world much better working for McDonalds." Sure.

Imagine this:
- Free organic, non-genetically modified food
- Free Healthcare
- Free Quality Housing
- Free Utilities
- Free Higher Education
- Free Computers
- Free Infinite Energy

It makes you cringe, doesn't it? It makes a lot of people cringe. I feel like we've been conditioned to believe this is impossible, and the costs are too high. I believe that this actually comes from a deep-seeded jealousy toward those who would take advantage of the system. Also, many people do not like the idea of a society without economic classes because they would no longer be able to look down on those in a lower class. We've been conditioned to think of people in terms of economic classes, and we are conditioned to believe that those who have money worked for it, and deserve it.

This is not true. Most of the economic elite were born into it... and the wealth they acquire is stolen from the middle class. That isn't just a turn-of-phrase either. The elite literally steal from us... the Fed gave $7.7 trillion in secret loans at 0% interest to the very banks that own it... and that's just the loans that haven't been paid back. They actually gave out $16 trillion. With inflation, they effectively steal about $250 billion from us every year the loans are not paid back.

Even if people did take advantage of the system, I believe many more would be incredibly grateful. People who are inclined to work wouldn't have to take jobs they don't want, and they would have much more time to build real skills to help the world.


Jobs, jobs, jobs. I think we need less jobs. Wouldn't it be great if we made things so efficient that no one has to work?

I believe in giving everyone equal opportunity. We don't have equal opportunity. If you believe you do, then just imagine what life would be like if you were born a Rockefeller.

Think about the trillions we pour into oil every year... Imagine what we could do if we invested 1 trillion into an institution like NASA to develop non-carbon energy resources. We are not using our resources well, and it is deliberate and by design.

[James Fletcher]

Originally Posted by siryessir08

Unfortunately it's deeply ingrained into our consciousness (by design) that people without jobs are lazy. We've been told that if someone doesn't have work, they deserve it....

...We've been conditioned to think of people in terms of economic classes, and we are conditioned to believe that those who have money worked for it, and deserve it.

This is not true. Most of the economic elite were born into it... and the wealth they acquire is stolen from the middle class. That isn't just a turn-of-phrase either.

I've found that it is just as much an ingrained belief in some different parts that the wealthy are greedy and that they don't deserve what they have, regardless of how they came to acquire it.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by James Fletcher

I've found that it is just as much an ingrained belief in some different parts that the wealthy are greedy and that they don't deserve what they have, regardless of how they came to acquire it.

I don't know how every single individual makes their money so it would be unfair of me to judge a person only by her or his pocketbook. However, I've seen a lot of shady dealing, reprehensible behaviour, murder and war all done in the name of profit. All fed to me by a media that relies on continued fear and cynicism for maximizing its own profits.

I've grown weary of the wealthy, honestly speaking. I'm sure that unconsciously affects how I interact with them. It's one of my limiting beliefs. There's a part of me that holds back, career-wise, and I know this has something to do with it.

I'm sharing because I went through a ''pipe dream'' phase. I discovered the Zeitgeist movement. I feel somewhat embarrassed to admit it but I was holding on to extremely improbable dreams. Those dreams slowed down my ambitions as well since a part of me feared the concept of money itself.

Today I'm trying to make peace with money and profit. I'm questioning myself on how to make a profit and keep my integrity. Questioning my concept of integrity itself. Seems the most sensible approach to me right now.

TL;DR You're right James. I'm living proof!

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I see both angles--the problem is the system that grew out of what the politicians and corporations (i.e., people) created.

You're right! It's a false dichotomy really.

[Acting Like Godot]

Oh the irony.

Originally Posted by siryessir08

The Steve Pavlina community is mostly filled with ... thoughtful people who want to work toward a better world.

Jobs, jobs, jobs. I think we need less jobs. Wouldn't it be great if we made things so efficient that no one has to work?

If no one is working, then no one is working towards a better world.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by siryessir08

This is not true. Most of the economic elite were born into it...

Oh. And here I was foolishly thinking that it had something to do with their huge salaries and bonuses, not their inherited wealth. Guess all those media reports about investment bankers must be false.

Imagine what we could do if we invested 1 trillion into an institution like NASA to develop non-carbon energy resources.

Nothing will happen, if all the scientists and engineers decided that they aren't supposed to be working.

[siryessir08]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Oh the irony.


If no one is working, then no one is working towards a better world.

You're not trying to understand to point?

Ideally everyone should do the work they want to do (or not work if they don't want to). I was saying it would be great if it wasn't a requirement to work in order to live (in a body). The stevepav community tends to desire to work for a better future for humanity.

The scientists and engineers comment is snarky and thoughtless.

and yes... most of the economic elite WERE born into it. Most never received an inheritance, because there parents arn't dead yet. The insanely rich move their assets around within the family. Kids get investment firms from their parents. They increase the wealth of the family.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by siryessir08

You're not trying to understand to point?

I understand your points. I think that they are illogical and poorly thought out, that is all.

Ideally everyone should do the work they want to do (or not work if they don't want to).

Nobody stops you from doing the work you want to do. To use your artist example, if you are good enough to make a living from your art, who's stopping you? There are plenty of professional artists in the world.

If you aren't good enough to make a living from doing what you want to do - that's the problem.

And if you don't want to work, but you still expect to live on other people's money .... Well, if those "other people" are your parents, then that's their problem. If those "other people" are taxpayers, then that makes you a leech. Even the artists pay income tax. And their tax goes towards ... Supporting you, just because you don't want to work?

Do you think that this is right?

The scientists and engineers comment is snarky and thoughtless.

Really? You had placed "free infinite energy" on your wish list. If energy is free and infinite, who pays for the salaries of the many scientists and engineers who work in the energy industry?

You also wrote - give a trillion bucks to NASA to do the research to create the source. Where does the trillion bucks cone from? If it cones from the government, it's once again the taxpayers money - including your professional artists!

and yes... most of the economic elite WERE born into it. Most never received an inheritance, because there parents arn't dead yet. The insanely rich move their assets around within the family. Kids get investment firms from their parents. They increase the wealth of the family.

First you say that the rich steal from the other classes. Then you say that they get it from their families.

Well, if they got it from their families, then they didn't steal it and it's really none of your business why or how much the daddy or the mummy gave to Sonny Boy. Similarly, if you chose not to work and your parents chose to support you, then regardless of how rich or poor they are, it's also nine of my business.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by siryessir08

The stevepav community tends to desire to work for a better future for humanity

Honestly, I'm not too sure about that.

Firstly I think that the Stevepav community is quite diverse in their motivations. If you generally look through the different sections of the forum, you'll see for example that a sizable percentage are here to talk about their personal problems (relating to girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, wife, social anxiety, loneliness, communication skills, health issues, getting a job, family relationship issues) and to get some advice & tips.

Another percentage are here for general knowledge and discussion on topics like nutrition and exercise. Yet another percentage is here to discuss unusual, esoteric phenomena (these folks congregate mostly in the Psychic and Paranormal and the Spirituality sections).

It really doesn't strike me that there are that many people here who have talked significantly about their jobs as building a better future of humanity. Who are you thinking of?

[Peterw]

Interesting article here:

Finally, A Rich American Destroys The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

one argument has been repeated so often that many people now regard it as fact:

Rich people create jobs.

Specifically, entrepreneurs, when incented by low taxes, build companies and create millions of jobs.

But now a super-rich and super-successful American has explained the most important reason the theory is absurd, while calling for higher taxes on himself and people like him.

The most important reason the theory that "rich people create the jobs" is absurd, argues Nick Hanauer, the founder of online advertising company aQuantive, which Microsoft bought for $6.4 billion, is that rich people do not create jobs, even if they found and build companies that eventually employ thousands of people.

What creates the jobs, Hanauer astutely observes, is the company's customers.

Interesting twist...

I don't work in an investment bank anymore (Finished last week) so I could be really fickle and completely switch sides as I'm now officially unemployed (not in a contract). I'm not going to though

I think we need to start looking beyond the extremes and polarities. My stance stays the same as it has been for a while now. I believe that change is needed and that change should come from educating and enabling people to make the changes from inside the current 'system'

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Peterw

I think we need to start looking beyond the extremes and polarities. My stance stays the same as it has been for a while now. I believe that change is needed and that change should come from educating and enabling people to make the changes from inside the current 'system'

I think this is the most realistic approach.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

If you aren't good enough to make a living from doing what you want to do - that's the problem.

And if you don't want to work, but you still expect to live on other people's money .... Well, if those "other people" are your parents, then that's their problem. If those "other people" are taxpayers, then that makes you a leech.

This is one of the big problems that I have with the concept of money itself. If you're not bringing it in, others will think less of you. They'll think you're lazy and you don't work. As an artist, I can tell you this is far from the truth. There's an extremely small percentage of the population who's born with remarkable natural talents. Those people can jump immediately to being profitable. If they meet the right people and have decent social skills etc. For the rest of us, we have to make sacrifices. A lot of us take ♥♥♥♥ jobs. I chose welfare. I sacrificed short and medium-term material comfort for my training, with no guarantees of a pay off. All so that I could give all my focus to my career.

What if I have a car accident and die tomorrow? What's the verdict? Leech? Cause I see myself as someone who's unwilling to compromise on his dreams. I don't care if I succeed or not, as seen through someone else's eyes. I care about knowing that I gave it my 100%. That, to me, is success.

It's attitudes like yours ALG that stigmatizes people like me. Thought you should know.

And it's the profit system that stunts general human creative growth. Because people somehow expect artists to be millionaires without realizing all the hard work that goes into it. Or the years of poverty they endured before getting there. We could enrich ourselves collectively so much more if we gave kids the freedom to explore their natural abilities and passions, including creative ones.

Originally Posted by siryessir08

Unfortunately it's deeply ingrained into our consciousness (by design) that people without jobs are lazy. We've been told that if someone doesn't have work, they deserve it. We've been told that we can't follow our passions because we have to pay the bills. "If you want to make the world a more beautiful place, and major in art... then *$%$ you... you can get a job at McDonalds. You're 'art' is worthless. You would be serving the world much better working for McDonalds." Sure.

Thanks a million. You have no idea how much of a kick I got out of that one!

[Acting Like Godot]

You missed the point, MU.

You can be an artist ... or a mechanical engineer .... or a ballet dancer .... or a human resource officer .... or a school teacher .... or a physiotherapist.

Whatever you fancy, for whatever reason.

Nobody is really stopping you. Your father may have an opinion. Your mother may have an opinion. Your friend may have an opinion. Your neighbour may have an opinion.

But it's pretty much still your own choice.

Siryessir08 wrote this:

"We've been told that we can't follow our passions because we have to pay the bills ..."

That's just your father talking. Or your mother talking. Or your friend or neighbour talking. The choice is still yours.

It is dumb to say that the world is stopping you from being an artist (or a mechanical engineer ... or a ballet dancer ... or a human resource officer). Nobody is tying you up with a rope to stop you from being whatever it is.

What's stopping you (not you you, but "you" generically) is your own perception of whether it is viable for you to pursue this path. Whether you can make enough money to support yourself. Whether it would be better for you to pursue some other job which brings in steadier income, even if you don't like the work so much.

These are valid considerations. But the choice is still yours. It's dumb to make a particular choice (whatever choice), then blame the world and say that it forced you to make that choice.

Also you're placing "artists" on some special pedestal. Now, let's not be so narrow-minded. In some way, we could say that "artists" are special people.

But then again, we could also say that "doctors" are special people. Or "firemen" are special people. Or "wildlife park rangers" are special people. Or "teachers", or "life coaches", or "writers", or "priests", or any number of other occupations.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

And it's the profit system that stunts general human creative growth. Because people somehow expect artists to be millionaires without realizing all the hard work that goes into it. Or the years of poverty they endured before getting there.

It's like you don't think people also have to work hard and make sacrifices to become a successful doctor, lawyer, accountant, engineer, IT programmer, entrepreneur or whatever.

As for creativity, try to take a wider view. Steve Jobs wasn't an "artist", but he was damned creative and that's where all his money came from. Creativity isn't something limited to "artists" - many, many people have to be creative in many, many different kinds of jobs.

Including chefs; architects; interior designers; engineers; school teachers; gardeners; photographers; wedding planners; advertising executives; TV scriptwriters; and people who design

toys
furniture
carpets
flower pots
jewelry
watches
stationery
T-shirts
haversacks
handbags
shoes
aeroplanes
curtains
TV sets
fish tanks
wallpaper
book covers
cushion covers
glasses
plates
cars

etc etc

[Cidwind]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

The voice of the people decides that. We choose where we want to work. The government forces you to raise your pay, and they will just raise the cost of goods. One way or another people will pay, when government forces companies to do something. It's not their jobs to do that! If people really cared that much, then they wouldn't buy from companies like that. Yet, as we see, people are more then willing to buy apple products, build on the backs of young Chinese kids.

The only thing governments should do to intervene, is in drastic situations like monopolies and various other scenarios. I've said it before, that government does have a purpose. It's just over reaching it. And now, everyone has moved over seas. Yay for government!

The interesting point to make is that it is when the government is MORE involved that the country is more sucessful. When tarrifs were higher and regulations were stricter this country had manufacturing and was at the peak of its boom. It wasn't until Ronald Regean started this "free market" idea that the United States started to take a turn for the worse.
The idea that taking away regulation or cutting taxes will spread the wealth is simply absurd, and has been shown to fail countless of times.

[Merrick1]

I like this video very much:

Prison Planet.com » David Icke – Essential Knowledge For A Wall Street Protestor (And Everyone Else)

And I admire this guy for his great insight and especially for his great courage to stand up, quite lonely, against the establishment, exposing it. Many people have laughed at him but they didn't know what they were laughing at. He has most probably made some mistakes, just like everyone else, but the little I've seen from him so far makes a perfect sense to me.

Merrick