Should Corporal Punishments Be Brought Back In Schools?

[Bunterhaperton]

I was reading the news the other week and according to a survey, apparantly 49% of parents and 11% of students want the cane to be re-introduced into schools to punish very badly behaved students. But the Education Board have rejected it and outlawed it outright. Interestingly though, 89% parents agree that sending very badly behaved students out of the classroom is the most favoured form of punishment in schools to re-introduced.

To me, I think the Cane should not be used because I believe it is a form of Child Abuse that really damages children's mental well being, as well as provoking revenge attacks by the students or the parents towards the teachers as well as the teachers being accused of Child Abuse and being reported to the Media and the Police.

But with sending very badly behaved students out of the class room, I thought that form of punishment had always been used. When I was at High School, the punishments were Detention at lunch times and in the evenings after school, punishment exercises given to students to be signed by parents, being sent out of the classroom, being shouted at and being restrained.

Things must have gone downhill discipline wise after I left if 89% of parents are agreeing that sending very badly behaved students out of the classroom is to be re-introduced.

What does everyone else think?

[Fred Tracy]

Even though I never got it, my parents always encouraged the teachers and principals to beat me if necessary.

I don't have kids, so I haven't formed an opinion on whether or not I agree with corporal punishment.

I tend to agree in certain extreme situations though.

[Clint Cora]

I think there must be other ways to deal with such kids. I know that in the world of dog training, hitting dogs because of bad behaviour is now considered by virtually ALL dog trainers to be a no-no. Instead, the idea of positive reinforcement for good behaviour and withholding pleasure for the dogs when behaviour is bad, is now the way to approach dog training.

I haven't quite figured out how to transfer this similar type of thing to kids. I know that when I taught the odd martial arts classes to kids, the regular punishment for out of line behavious would be pushups.

Since I don't deal with kids much anymore and have none of my own, I haven't thought of this area much. I do teach skiing to kids during the winter and haven't really had much problems with bad kids. If I do, I basically tell their parents right away and refuse to teach them. I suppose this is a form of withholding pleasure ...

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by Bunterhaperton

What does everyone else think?

I would say physical punishment has no place in schools.

However, I would also like to see students be encouraged to fight back against others who bully them, and legally protected when they do so.

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by Bunterhaperton

What does everyone else think?

Not only do I oppose school corporal punishment being reinstated, I'd like to see it outlawed where it is legal. For example, in my own country, it's legal (in public schools) in almost 20 states. I was glad to see that New Mexico banned it earlier this year.

[Andras]

No. Schools should punish and expel but I would not want some bozo teacher raising a hand to my daughter(11). Too many kids are not expelled and there are too many kids who remain with their dysfunctional families. Schools are not meant to be a social experiment but a place for learning.
My friend has two, ill behaving (read BAD) sons and while in general I disagree with CP at home or in school I could understand him doing it, there are circumstances where you are left defenseless and no other alternative will work. The mother of these boys is defending them no matter what stupid stunt they do and that is the main problem with this family. I know the father used CP with these boys and frankly I understand him doing so. I admit the CP did not work at all - mainly because one parent is enabling bad behavior while the other tries to fight it.....

Originally Posted by Bunterhaperton

I was reading the news the other week and according to a survey, apparantly 49% of parents and 11% of students want the cane to be re-introduced into schools to punish very badly behaved students. But the Education Board have rejected it and outlawed it outright. Interestingly though, 89% parents agree that sending very badly behaved students out of the classroom is the most favoured form of punishment in schools to re-introduced.

To me, I think the Cane should not be used because I believe it is a form of Child Abuse that really damages children's mental well being, as well as provoking revenge attacks by the students or the parents towards the teachers as well as the teachers being accused of Child Abuse and being reported to the Media and the Police.

But with sending very badly behaved students out of the class room, I thought that form of punishment had always been used. When I was at High School, the punishments were Detention at lunch times and in the evenings after school, punishment exercises given to students to be signed by parents, being sent out of the classroom, being shouted at and being restrained.

Things must have gone downhill discipline wise after I left if 89% of parents are agreeing that sending very badly behaved students out of the classroom is to be re-introduced.

What does everyone else think?

[Andrew Gubb]

Never, ever, ever.

But then schooling in its present form needs to be abolished. We need schools along the lines of A.S. Neill & Summerhill School .

Let's move forward, not back. If discipline has become more of an issue then let's get to the root of why it's difficult to control kids. Scrap that, let's ask ourselves why we had to control kids in the first place.

School is insane. What we do to our kids is insane.

[180]

Parents have no idea what goes on in a classroom. They virtually have no clue how impossible it is to control/teach.

They are disillusioned to think that teachers can just tell students to do something and they will follow. As parents you know you can only barely handle their OWN kid for only 4 hours a day but have no idea that a teacher has to deal with some odd 30+ different kids for 8 hours a day. You think it's hard raising a child? Try making it your job and then taking away all forms of punishment along with it.

That being said, I'm on both sides. As adamant follower of Skinner's behavioral psychology on some facet I believe negative behavior warrants punishment. Frankly speaking, you can't just let kids do whatever they want and only kick them out of the classroom. That is exactly what they want. Children who are not focused and like causing trouble only cause more, lessen their own education, and cause problems outside the classroom. This is not a good solution for anybody.

On the other hand, physical punishment can mentally scare children for life, and it can cause negative reinforcement to stimuli that is "neutral". For example a student smacked with a ruler may not think he got smacked because he said a swear (something I've done in class and not realized) but instead thought he was slapped because he tried to answer a question. He was punished incorrectly and it misshapes his future for the worse.

This topic has come up like 8 times on this forum so I'm not leaving the 9 page thesis I always leave behind. However, I have done a lot of research on the topic of corporal punishment and frankly it can serve to keep students in line. The problem is when the teacher doesn't apply correctly.

I'd also like to add, parents take too much power away from teachers. In my experience, 90% when there is a student discipline issue, parents side with their child. I have seen serious legitimate concerns completely awashed by parents because they didn't cooperate with the teacher. Somehow, we are seen as the enemy and frankly it tires me. I've seen co-workers fired because they went to far to search a student who supposed stole a wallet from another student (which later was found out to be true). A female teacher searching a female student was found guilty of supposed "fondling" and was fired. (she only searched her pockets) Ridiculous really but this happens everyday.

I think parents and teachers need to work together. Students aren't our enemies, but we need parents support if we want to direct behavior in ways that will help them in future life.

[Brutha]

But the Education Board have rejected it and outlawed it outright.

This is an international forum: Which board of Education are you talking about?

However, I have done a lot of research on the topic of corporal punishment and frankly it can serve to keep students in line. The problem is when the teacher doesn't apply correctly.

A while ago I read a book by Koichi Tohei who's an important person in Aikido.
In Japan they made a general decision to remove corporal punishment as teacher aid.
A particular teacher however continued with the corporal punishment.
Koichi Tohei got asked to talk to the teacher about it.
He told him: "Whenever you feel like administering corporal punishment you have to reflect.
If you are just annoyed at the student don't do corporal punishment.
If you however believe in your heart that the corporal punishment will help the student, go ahead with the punishment."

Afterwards the teacher completely stopped corporal punishment.

If you give someone the power to administer corporal punishment you will corrupt him. He will use the power when he feels negative emotions without going through mental analysis about whether the punishment is really in the benefit of the student or class.

[SnerpGoodWord]

I think it is a huge disservice to students who actually do want to learn to have mandatory public schooling without effective (read: corporal) punishment for misbehaving students. If misbehaving students simply lost access to public schooling (which, contrary to popular belief they almost never do) then it wouldn't be necessary to punish them - they would be gone and the students who behave could continue to learn in peace. But if we're going to force everyone to go to school, I think it makes sense to force them to behave.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Brutha

This is an international forum: Which board of Education are you talking about?
A while ago I read a book by Koichi Tohei who's an important person in Aikido.
In Japan they made a general decision to remove corporal punishment as teacher aid.
A particular teacher however continued with the corporal punishment.
Koichi Tohei got asked to talk to the teacher about it.
He told him: "Whenever you feel like administering corporal punishment you have to reflect.
If you are just annoyed at the student don't do corporal punishment.
If you however believe in your heart that the corporal punishment will help the student, go ahead with the punishment."

Afterwards the teacher completely stopped corporal punishment.

If you give someone the power to administer corporal punishment you will corrupt him. He will use the power when he feels negative emotions without going through mental analysis about whether the punishment is really in the benefit of the student or class.

I liked that anecdote, was going to rep it but the browser isn't letting me again (why does it do that??)

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

I think it is a huge disservice to students who actually do want to learn to have mandatory public schooling without effective (read: corporal) punishment for misbehaving students. If misbehaving students simply lost access to public schooling (which, contrary to popular belief they almost never do) then it wouldn't be necessary to punish them - they would be gone and the students who behave could continue to learn in peace. But if we're going to force everyone to go to school, I think it makes sense to force them to behave.

Where do you get the information that they almost never do? I personally know at least four who got expelled--as in, they must go to an 'alternative school' that's run even more like a jail or their parents must find another option--one for a dress code issue. (Perhaps they didn't lose access entirely, but in any case they're not going to be in public schooling with students you'd likely deem earnest to learn). I've been homeschooled most of my life, but the public schools I've had direct experience with were not slow on that trigger.


With how I've seen "lighter" punishments abused by incompetent authorities, no, I wouldn't want to green light them to hit children. Where that falls on the levels of "providing a good education" is "basic avoidance of barbarism".

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Where do you get the information that they almost never do? I personally know at least four who got expelled...

Four out of how many? How many were disruptive?

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

Four out of how many? How many were disruptive?

In my classes? Three that come to mind. One of the above examples wasn't in my classes, and one wasn't truly disruptive (she got a lip ring that swelled and she couldn't remove it for school without a doctor). In fact, only one student consistently derailed and disrupted the classes or bullied other students. The others were for more personal offenses.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

In my classes? Three that come to mind. One of the above examples wasn't in my classes, and one wasn't truly disruptive (she got a lip ring that swelled and she couldn't remove it for school without a doctor). In fact, only one student consistently derailed and disrupted the classes or bullied other students. The others were for more personal offenses.

This sounds like a pretty sheltered environment. Many schools are dealing with discipline issues more in the realm of drugs, gangs, weapons, aggressive bullying etc. I'm not arguing that kids should be subjected to corporal punnishment, suspended or expelled for lip rings - not the level of offenses I had in mind.

[Brutha]

Many schools are dealing with discipline issues more in the realm of drugs, gangs, weapons, aggressive bullying etc. I'm not arguing that kids should be subjected to corporal punnishment, suspended or expelled for lip rings - not the level of offenses I had in mind.

How do you want to structure this to prevent the schools from using corporal punishment for that purpose if you allow corporal punishment in general?

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Brutha

How do you want to structure this to prevent the schools from using corporal punishment for that purpose if you allow corporal punishment in general?

Via the school administration - the same way all other punishments at school are handed out.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

This sounds like a pretty sheltered environment. Many schools are dealing with discipline issues more in the realm of drugs, gangs, weapons, aggressive bullying etc. I'm not arguing that kids should be subjected to corporal punnishment, suspended or expelled for lip rings - not the level of offenses I had in mind.

The honors classes are a sheltered environment but the school on the whole deals with all those issues and I expect administers a similar standard of punishment. The jail school, or 'alternative school' as it's officially called, is huge.

[Cado]

If you've designed a school system where kids need to be hit in order to listen you have failed. In the US we currently run off the prussian model which was more or less designed to break students, turn them into good soldiers and factory workers, instead of educating them. Frankly there's too much distance between book work and practical application for much learning to be done-it's entirely counter-intuitive to how we pick up skills in other areas of our lives.

And yet somehow the kids are the problem. Quite the world we live in.

[Johnny Metal]

Let's also bring the corporal punishment into workplace - it will improve both morale and productivity.

Forget the partnership model, dominator model is the way to go.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by 180

Parents have no idea what goes on in a classroom. They virtually have no clue how impossible it is to control/teach.

They are disillusioned to think that teachers can just tell students to do something and they will follow.

I went to a public school in a relatively wealthy neighborhood, and the kids *did* just do things because the teachers ask. From what I remember, I can hardly think of a time when classes were literally "unable" to be controlled or quieted down for the teacher to teach.

The only exception would be for one or two of the very young teachers who were just out of college, maybe 25ish. The high school kids would tend to treat younger teachers with less respect than older teachers.

Another exception is that kids would love to mess with substitute teachers, but I think that's a given at any school

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I liked that anecdote, was going to rep it but the browser isn't letting me again (why does it do that??)

I think it's because the website's server is failing to respond. If I try loading another page on the forums when the little rep window won't come up, I always get a server error.

[Agota]

I don't believe that physical punishments as such or even physical violence (that's not about kids anymore) is necessarily destructive, but in most cases it is, because the vast majority of people are unable to use it as something constructive.

Brutha shared a great story which is really straight to the point: are your actions motivated by negative emotions, such as annoyance or plain anger, or by love, compassion and sincere desire to help a person?

I believe that bringing back physical punishments to schools would be a disaster, not because of the nature of punishments, but because teachers are not ready for that. I mean, I've seen a lot of teachers who can write you a crappy grade just because they have had a bad day or because they don't like you or because they don't like pretty girls or jocks or whatever. Yes, they have a difficult job, but hello, they chose that job and they should be able to deal with it or quit, not take it out on kids. Now imagine giving these people who are already taking out their issues on kids a right to use physical punishments. That doesn't sound good

[Brutha]

Via the school administration - the same way all other punishments at school are handed out.

I would not trust a school administration that you legally allow to use punishment for whatever they desire to avoid using the punishment in more and more cases.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Agota

Brutha shared a great story which is really straight to the point: are your actions motivated by negative emotions, such as annoyance or plain anger, or by love, compassion and sincere desire to help a person?

I find it hard to imagine a single moment when physical punishment could be done with love, compassion and a sincere desire to help the victim. In some cases I can see how violence could be used to save someone else's life, with compassion for the victim. But I don't see how anyone can use physical punishment with compassion.

Actually I think practically all punishment comes from negativity rather than compassion! I know in the case of children it only serves to establish a hierarchy (based on strength), something humans do not actually need to interact in an orderly way.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Brutha

I would not trust a school administration that you legally allow to use punishment for whatever they desire to avoid using the punishment in more and more cases.

If you believe the administration is not capable of making judgment decisions, this is an argument against public schooling in general.

[Brutha]

If you believe the administration is not capable of making judgment decisions, this is an argument against public schooling in general.

Giving a person the power to harm people physically corrupts them. It raises primal instincts.
It harms their decision making ability.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Giving a person the power to harm people physically corrupts them. It raises primal instincts.
It harms their decision making ability.

I don't think maintaining discipline in a school corrupts anyone. I think the exact opposite - that continually disruptive students corrupt the educational process.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

I don't think maintaining discipline in a school corrupts anyone. I think the exact opposite - that continually disruptive students corrupt the educational process.

Are they really being 'educated' though, or just having text book information (which may not even be factually truthful or correct) regurgitated to them to memorize?

[garentee]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

I don't think maintaining discipline in a school corrupts anyone. I think the exact opposite - that continually disruptive students corrupt the educational process.

Maintaining discipline is one thing.. corporal punishment a far different thing... It is not ok to hit kids...end of story. Discipline can be any number of things..