Are The Current US and World Economies "Fixable"?

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

Not any more it's not. And it hasn't been on average over the past years - nearly everything is cheaper now than it was in 2008. Oil is 50% off. Corn's off about 15% and wheat almost 50%. Housing is about 30% off. Most manufactured goods have gotten cheaper. Labor has gotten cheaper.

You can use whatever numbers float your boat, but the fact is that everything has gotten cheaper. That's deflation.

Not sure what planet you're from, Snerp, but on planet earth, pretty much everything is more expensive. Bought gas lately? In 2008, gas was $1.87 at the pump. Now it's $3.89. Do you buy food? Have you noticed that if prices aren't going up, quantities are coming down?

Overall, prices are going up, and will forever go up, as long as central banks keep printing money.

Here's a chart to make my point.

Here is also some more data. If you'll notice, inflation has been over 3 percent each month since April.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

Bought gas lately? In 2008, gas was $1.87 at the pump.

Gas peaked at over $4 (national average) in 2008. Only AFTER the huge crash did it drop below $3. That's the DEFLATION I'm talking about.

Gas Price Historical Price Charts - GasBuddy.com

You're making garbage up to support nonsense internet economics. Problem is, the facts don't agree with you. Nearly everything is cheaper today than it was in mid 2008. If you can't accept that basic, and VERY well documented, fact then this discussion is pointless as you've prioritized dogma over knowledge.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

If you'll notice, inflation has been over 3 percent each month since April.

The issue is not monthly numbers. The issue is what's happening over the horizon on which businesses make decisions, which is a couple of years. They see deflation, they horde cash. It's very simple and very rational on their part.

The solution is to drive modest positive inflation over a multi-year time frame to make hording unattractive.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Sorry Snerp, you can use whatever numbers you want but the facts are the facts

Besides, I'm talking about the price at the gas station.

The price at the pump has already been posted and has fallen since mid-2008.

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

Gas peaked at over $4 (national average) in 2008. Only AFTER the huge crash did it drop below $3. That's the DEFLATION I'm talking about.

Gas Price Historical Price Charts - GasBuddy.com

You're making garbage up to support nonsense internet economics. Problem is, the facts don't agree with you. Nearly everything is cheaper today than it was in mid 2008. If you can't accept that basic, and VERY well documented, fact then this discussion is pointless as you've prioritized dogma over knowledge.

Again, not sure what planet you're from, dude.

Or, maybe you're just a banker who's simply out of touch with the real world.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

Again, not sure what planet you're from, dude.

I'm from the planet where real data trumps nonsensical internet economics.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

The price at the pump has already been posted and has fallen since mid-2008.

Uh ok? I didn't see the link. But my memory is pretty good and the price increases since 2008 are pretty drastic

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Uh ok? I didn't see the link. But my memory is pretty good and the price increases since 2008 are pretty drastic

Here's the link.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Uh ok? I didn't see the link. But my memory is pretty good and the price increases since 2008 are pretty drastic

Look at the provided link. Average price in Canada in 2008 topped out at about 5.30CAD a gallon. It's now at about 4.55CAD - 14% or so lower.

I think a lot of people have a hard time remembering when prices fall as compared to when they rise. But the data doesn't lie. Gas in Canada now is cheaper than it was before the crisis in 2008.

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Uh ok? I didn't see the link. But my memory is pretty good and the price increases since 2008 are pretty drastic

Yes, this is correct.

Granted, as the graph shows, gas prices did indeed peak in 2008, then fell dramatically when the fit hit the shan. Since 2008 (meaning, 2009, 2010, and 2011), during the "recovery", it has more than doubled.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

Look at the provided link. Average price in Canada in 2008 topped out at about 5.30CAD a gallon. It's now at about 4.55CAD - 14% or so lower.

I think a lot of people have a hard time remembering when prices fall as compared to when they rise. But the data doesn't lie. Gas in Canada now is cheaper than it was before the crisis in 2008.

Good point. But prices have been on a steady rise for 3 years now. That's not deflation.

Why don't you just argue that companies are hoarding cash on the fears of deflation instead? I think it would be pretty big news if we were actually in deflation.

[Rezzy7]

Those gas prices in 2008 were an over-inflated peak based on false scarcity, so that's not a good starting point.

Prices at the consumer level, the level that counts for most of the USA, have gone up significantly since then.

Originally Posted by Spinoza

Here is what I find with a google search I just did

ok, thanks for the links. Hoarding makes sense for companies that can. But is it not true companies hide debt in creative ways? After the stuff that has happened in recent years, how am I to trust what companies report?

[James Fletcher]

Are we talking per barrel or pump (retail) prices? Most of the financial commentaries I've been reading have reported a steady decline in the price of oil per barrel over the past couple of years.

I'm no expert in oil distribution but I would assume that retail prices would widely vary depending on location.

[Spinoza]

Originally Posted by Rezzy7

Those gas prices in 2008 were an over-inflated peak based on false scarcity, so that's not a good starting point.

Prices at the consumer level, the level that counts for most of the USA, have gone up significantly since then.


ok, thanks for the links. Hoarding makes sense for companies that can. But is it not true companies hide debt in creative ways? After the stuff that has happened in recent years, how am I to trust what companies report?

Good question, how do we trust a company’s balance sheet when we know ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ have and will hide what's going on with a company. I don't know if there is a great answer to that question. Diversify, invest consciously..yada, yada, yada. Your right in the fact that there is this haze of mistrust of the corporate world that goes beyond just not likeing corporations because they seem overly greedy. Ultimately I think whatever solution emerges will have to come from the corporate world itself and I'm not sure if they’re interested or care.

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by James Fletcher

Are we talking per barrel or pump (retail) prices? Most of the financial commentaries I've been reading have reported a steady decline in the price of oil per barrel over the past couple of years.

Indeed, which I've always found interesting, and an example of how prices are not set by "the market", as oil companies and their apologists so often claim.

I'm no expert in oil distribution but I would assume that retail prices would widely vary depending on location.

Apparently, you don't buy much gas.

Yes, prices vary by location, but not by that much. Prices here in Southern California always exceed the national average, but only by a few cents. I also know others in other states, where gas prices are lower than the national average, but, again, only by a few cents.

[garentee]

Originally Posted by James Fletcher

Are we talking per barrel or pump (retail) prices? Most of the financial commentaries I've been reading have reported a steady decline in the price of oil per barrel over the past couple of years.

I'm no expert in oil distribution but I would assume that retail prices would widely vary depending on location.

File:Brent Spot monthly.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Rezzy7]

Are banks also sitting on piles of cash? Because if they are, I don't think they really need to get rid of free checking and charge $24.

[pjhaggerty]

Originally Posted by Rezzy7

Are banks also sitting on piles of cash? Because if they are, I don't think they really need to get rid of free checking and charge $24.

Banks are not, in general, sitting on wads of cash. Corporations in non-financial sectors are (think apple, wal-mart etc.)

Banks are laying off tons of workers these days, not swimming in cash.

[JDuff]

If I could describe the general state of affairs, it would be this: money is created out of thin air, it all gets sent around in a giant web, plenty of which is pretty toxic or doubtful whether it is able to be paid back.

Suddenly, banks start to get twitchy and want it back. But they have been playing all of these crazy games and the whole system is backed by nothing - it's just numbers and plenty of it has been created out of thin air and it won't come back easily or quickly. So, we the people have to bail them out to the tune of trillions of dollars.

Then, suddenly we are in a debt crisis because of all the debt we have given away to these elites. So we have to massively cut back and suffer losses in living standards, while the elites protect their interests and suffer nothing, or indeed, suck the money upwards. Ever heard "taxing the richest hurts the economy?" Yeah right!

So if you mean by fix, sorting out these pretty evil ploys that are being used, then that depends on how the 99% handle the situation. But when you have so much seeming power on one side, I would be doubtful.

If you mean "fix" as in, get back to some kind of backed monetary system that isn't a complete sham that people are increasingly waking up to, I'd say no. The only way to "fix" it is to let it all come crashing down and start again from scratch, in other words, complete meltdown. That is hardly a fix.

So what will happen is that the current system will stay in operation. I presume a fix to be a greater equality. That depends on who is in control! The prospects don't look good.

[JDuff]

Banks don't really have cash. It's all webs of debt and bets and investments and so on.

But they give 0.1% interest for savings in the UK and charge 20% on credit. Now there's an unfair deal if I ever heard one!