Wall Street Protests

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Peterw

I actually have no issues with the bank I'm at right now as they didn't really contriubute to the crash

Co-op?

[Peterw]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Co-op?

No- one of the big Swiss ones. Not the one with the big scandal a few weeks ago - the other one...

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Cado

The issue is that there is no alternative. If the requirement to protest a corrupt system is to use nothing it provides, regardless of how essential it is to your existence or your ability to communicate with the world, then nothing will ever change.

This is the same line of bs parents throw at their children when they're treating them like **** and want them to behave. "I feed you! I clothe you!" They signed up for the job when they had the kid; they don't get brownie points for maintaining the child's existence when the consequences for not doing so are so dire they could never realistically do it. That the child can't feed or clothe itself up to a certain age is not an argument in favor of being grateful toward/respecting their parents.

That was beautifully put Cado. But it should be noted that Snerp is trying to completely derail the conversation. The financial sector's general contributions to society, positive or negative, is completely irrelevant. The fact is that these people scammed the people of trillions of dollars right when they needed it most. That's the despicable act that everyone is outraged about.

PeterW..Just wanted to let you know that I don't think you're doing anything immoral, unethical or illegal. I completely feel the outrage that many others are feeling, but that doesn't mean we should be condemning innocent people too.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

That was beautifully put Cado. But it should be noted that Snerp is trying to completely derail the conversation. The financial sector's general contributions to society, positive or negative, is completely irrelevant. The fact is that these people scammed the people of trillions of dollars right when they needed it most. That's the despicable act that everyone is outraged about.

PeterW..Just wanted to let you know that I don't think you're doing anything immoral, unethical or illegal. I completely feel the outrage that many others are feeling, but that doesn't mean we should be condemning innocent people too.

I think that was established with the "they're protesting the very existence of banks" line of thinking. There are, no doubt, protesters who think that way, but I doubt anyone making demands actually believes that the banks will tumble as a result of this and that society will chug along like nothing happened. This protest is about not getting reamed anymore. That's the essential part-bigger changes can be made later.

[russianrocket]

bunch of socialists, who have never had to live with socialism, only want it BECAUSE they've never lived in one.

» Occupy Wall Street ‘Stands In Solidarity’ With Obama Front Group Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

[garentee]

Obama is clearly part of the problem.... This protest is about how the top 1% hold 40% of the wealth in this country...and the fact that the wages have been stagnant for over 30 years. The list is very long of grievances that are valid.

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

bunch of socialists, who have never had to live with socialism, only want it BECAUSE they've never lived in one.

» Occupy Wall Street ‘Stands In Solidarity’ With Obama Front Group Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Originally Posted by garentee

Obama is clearly part of the problem.... This protest is about how the top 1% hold 40% of the wealth in this country...and the fact that the wages have been stagnant for over 30 years. The list is very long of grievances that are valid.

Indeed, my heart sank when I saw MoveOn.org on their solidarity list. But, then, if you look at the whole list, it is apparent that the movement is steering to the left. Too far to the left, in fact, for me maintain my support. Unions are corrupt, as well, and make up another part of the Corporatocracy (since they slide $$$ into politicians' pockets, as well).

And while I agree with 99% of their list of grievances (no pun intended), there is not a single mention of the colluding government that facilitates the corporate greed, not to mention the Federal Reserve System that gave rise to the whole mess from the beginning. Moreover, their demands are pie-in-the-sky, utopian, unrealistic, and there are just too many of them. Thus, I think they will ultimately be ineffective.

Historically, all the most effective movements focus on one, fundamental, principle change: independence; abolition; women's sufferage; prohibition. I think they need to do more research, and really address the core problem, which is corporatism (or "crony capitalism", as it's also called). Government, as well as corporations, are responsible for that. Otherwise, they only appear to me to be a mob--a peaceful mob, but a mob, nonetheless. And until they can get over that, I really don't think they can accomplish anything, except, perhaps, making the problem worse, in the end.

[Peterw]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

That was beautifully put Cado. But it should be noted that Snerp is trying to completely derail the conversation. The financial sector's general contributions to society, positive or negative, is completely irrelevant. The fact is that these people scammed the people of trillions of dollars right when they needed it most. That's the despicable act that everyone is outraged about.

PeterW..Just wanted to let you know that I don't think you're doing anything immoral, unethical or illegal. I completely feel the outrage that many others are feeling, but that doesn't mean we should be condemning innocent people too.

Thanks mate

[garentee]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

Indeed, my heart sank when I saw MoveOn.org on their solidarity list. But, then, if you look at the whole list, it is apparent that the movement is steering to the left. Too far to the left, in fact, for me maintain my support. Unions are corrupt, as well, and make up another part of the Corporatocracy (since they slide $$$ into politicians' pockets, as well).

And while I agree with 99% of their list of grievances (no pun intended), there is not a single mention of the colluding government that facilitates the corporate greed, not to mention the Federal Reserve System that gave rise to the whole mess from the beginning. Moreover, their demands are pie-in-the-sky, utopian, unrealistic, and there are just too many of them. Thus, I think they will ultimately be ineffective.

Historically, all the most effective movements focus on one, fundamental, principle change: independence; abolition; women's sufferage; prohibition. I think they need to do more research, and really address the core problem, which is corporatism (or "crony capitalism", as it's also called). Government, as well as corporations, are responsible for that. Otherwise, they only appear to me to be a mob--a peaceful mob, but a mob, nonetheless. And until they can get over that, I really don't think they can accomplish anything, except, perhaps, making the problem worse, in the end.

This kind of a thing had to start somewhere..and usually in a movement it is the extreme wings of a party that gets it started...I have not paid too much attention to the ins and outs of this thing, but I know it will be co-opted before too long as all movements are.. that just shows the power of the corporatocracy we live in. If nothing else though this is bringing to the attention of the asleep some of what we are living with here. I am not a huge fans of protests but this one I have been a bit more ok with.. mostly because it does address some of the BS that need to be addressed. The non corporatists have been silent for far too long..

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

Indeed, my heart sank when I saw MoveOn.org on their solidarity list. But, then, if you look at the whole list, it is apparent that the movement is steering to the left. Too far to the left, in fact, for me maintain my support. Unions are corrupt, as well, and make up another part of the Corporatocracy (since they slide $$$ into politicians' pockets, as well).

And while I agree with 99% of their list of grievances (no pun intended), there is not a single mention of the colluding government that facilitates the corporate greed, not to mention the Federal Reserve System that gave rise to the whole mess from the beginning. Moreover, their demands are pie-in-the-sky, utopian, unrealistic, and there are just too many of them. Thus, I think they will ultimately be ineffective.

Historically, all the most effective movements focus on one, fundamental, principle change: independence; abolition; women's sufferage; prohibition. I think they need to do more research, and really address the core problem, which is corporatism (or "crony capitalism", as it's also called). Government, as well as corporations, are responsible for that. Otherwise, they only appear to me to be a mob--a peaceful mob, but a mob, nonetheless. And until they can get over that, I really don't think they can accomplish anything, except, perhaps, making the problem worse, in the end.

That was very insightful. Frankly I think the movement needs people like you!

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

That was very insightful. Frankly I think the movement needs people like you!

Thanks, but I've chatted with them, and they simply won't listen.

People in the movement are very emotionally charged, as they're fed up with the corruption they see in the corporate environment. I've been fed up for some time, myself, but yet understand that emotionality will solve nothing. They simply don't want to hear that, at this point.

[Peterw]

Quite a good video:

Incredible Speech By Wall Street Protester "End The Fed" 2011 - YouTube!

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

Protesting is only legal because it rarely ever changes anything. Just remember that. You can protest all you want, but at the end of the day, the criminal elite that own this country are going to do what they want anyway. 95% of them don't even see us as anywhere near equal to them. We are the peon masses, and they are our masters.

I don't see protest as an effective form of governmental change, unless of course enough people do it, like in the tens of millions or more.

This is my view on protesting as well.

It helps people to feel a catharsis and like they are all fighting for a common goal which makes them feel powerful for a time, but at the end of the day the people in charge don't give a flying ♥♥♥♥ what the majority think. To them we are only there to serve them, nothing more.

In short, they don't care about us, so why would they care what we think?

Still, what else can people do to feel powerful to replace the deep sense of powerlessness of it all? There is only so much humans will stand before they explode...that doesn't mean they are being heard by these people, but at least they are raising awareness and providing momentum for more and more people to feel like it's ok to bust through the fear imposed on them and fight.

[russianrocket]

Some ?Occupy Sacramento? Protesters Lash Out At Questions CBS Sacramento

They don't even KNOW their message yet. They have no idea why they are there. They are there FORMING their message. Even the leader had no freaken clue.

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It helps people to feel a catharsis and like they are all fighting for a common goal which makes them feel powerful for a time, but at the end of the day the people in charge don't give a flying ♥♥♥♥ what the majority think. To them we are only there to serve them, nothing more.

In short, they don't care about us, so why would they care what we think?

Politicians (i.e., "the people in charge") very much care about what we think, so they can use it to fulfill their own ends.

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Some ?Occupy Sacramento? Protesters Lash Out At Questions CBS Sacramento

They don't even KNOW their message yet. They have no idea why they are there. They are there FORMING their message. Even the leader had no freaken clue.

Yes, this is true, as I've spoken with chat mods on the both coasts. They have no leader, and many aren't even sure why they're there.

Which is what I meant by emotionality. They're simply people who are fed up, and want to effect change, and what they see most clearly is that while they struggle to find a surviving-wage job, corporate CEOs are making hundreds of millions of dollars a year while accepting government bailouts after having bankrupted the corporations that have paid them. Beyond that, the protesters see fairly little, and there's only been one person (in N.Y.) I've spoken with who had a grasp of the big picture (i.e., corporatism: the collusion between government and corporations).

The problem is that such general ignorance leaves the movement as a whole vulnerable to be steered in the direction of those entities that act to co-opt them. It's a mob mentality, and as I said before, it's fluid. Hence, the left, seeing phrases like "people, not profit", seize the moment, and join the movement in order to steer the movement in their leftward direction. Since the right will simply have nothing to do with the left, they're non-existent in this rabble. Meanwhile, an occasional, Libertarian, "End the Fed" sign will pop up, but those voices are quickly drowned out by the left, who are always charged by emotionality, and who are most often very vocal, at least the ones in New York.

[Peterw]

My approach to all of this is to learn how to trade the markets myself.

A computer + the internet + a bit of start up cash + some blood, and tears gives anyone a portal to take these people's money - a bit like this enterprising young lady here:

Stripper Turned “Hedge Fund Manager” Smoking The Competition Dealbreaker: Wall Street Insider ? Financial News, Headlines, Commentary and Analysis – Hedge Funds, Private Equity, Banks

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Some ?Occupy Sacramento? Protesters Lash Out At Questions CBS Sacramento

They don't even KNOW their message yet. They have no idea why they are there. They are there FORMING their message. Even the leader had no freaken clue.

I work in media. I'm shocked that such obvious manipulation of information goes unnoticed by people. That news report was extremely unprofessional. For shame.

Originally Posted by Solipsist

Thanks, but I've chatted with them, and they simply won't listen.

People in the movement are very emotionally charged, as they're fed up with the corruption they see in the corporate environment. I've been fed up for some time, myself, but yet understand that emotionality will solve nothing. They simply don't want to hear that, at this point.

I can believe that. I tried engaging some of the Zeitgeist people last year. What I've discovered is that someone who's emotionally charged and already has ''all the answers'' (bought into someone else's propaganda wholesale) will simply not listen. It's unfortunate.

[Solipsist]

This movement's a funny thing. Just when you think you understand what's going on, you see the following ...

A Message To MoveOn.org On Attempted Co Opt Of Occupy Protests :

... and it blows all your understanding out of the water.

In my case, however, and again, it only more appears to me to be a peaceful mob.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

Politicians (i.e., "the people in charge") very much care about what we think, so they can use it to fulfill their own ends.

Sure. They care only as much as to discern what we think so they can then turn around and tell us what we want to hear, so as to get re-elected next time...and that's it. They have no intention of actually doing any of the things they promise though...and yet people still vote for them.

[Solipsist]

My latest:

The Daily Chronolog

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Peterw

My approach to all of this is to learn how to trade the markets myself.

A computer + the internet + a bit of start up cash + some blood, and tears gives anyone a portal to take these people's money - a bit like this enterprising young lady here:

Stripper Turned “Hedge Fund Manager” Smoking The Competition Dealbreaker: Wall Street Insider ? Financial News, Headlines, Commentary and Analysis – Hedge Funds, Private Equity, Banks

If everyone who owned a computer started learning how to do this, there would be no more elite, because we'd all be up there. That's really the only way to ♥♥♥♥ them!

[Cado]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Some ?Occupy Sacramento? Protesters Lash Out At Questions CBS Sacramento

They don't even KNOW their message yet. They have no idea why they are there. They are there FORMING their message. Even the leader had no freaken clue.

In any large group of people you will find individuals who have no idea what they're talking about, who are just following the crowd because they have energy and maybe if they do what other people are doing they'll find a use for it.

That does not categorize the entirety of a group and it certainly doesn't mean the leaders have no idea why they're there.

Parks and Demonstration - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 10/05/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Best Occupy Wall Street Sign & More - YouTube

The mainstream media doesn't want you to know what this is about, they want to keep their ratings up. That's all they ever care about, and they'll usually side with whoever pays their salary. If you think CNN or the BBC or Fox News or MSNBC are telling the whole story you're deluding yourself. They are framing the protest as groundless whining on the part of ignorant people. That's a construct they've made by cherry picking quotes and footage, it isn't the truth.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Sure. They care only as much as to discern what we think so they can then turn around and tell us what we want to hear, so as to get re-elected next time...and that's it. They have no intention of actually doing any of the things they promise though...and yet people still vote for them.

Nobody holds them accountable. People gripe and say, "politicians lie" and wait for the next election. We equate democracy with voting. It's not. Voting is fetishized far beyond what it should be while we ignore the other parts of our governments which allow us to express our voice. If we can be duped or we're apathetic then we are partly to blame when scumbags take control and do the opposite of what we want.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Cado

Nobody holds them accountable. People gripe and say, "politicians lie" and wait for the next election. We equate democracy with voting. It's not. Voting is fetishized far beyond what it should be while we ignore the other parts of our governments which allow us to express our voice. If we can be duped or we're apathetic then we are partly to blame when scumbags take control and do the opposite of what we want.

This is the problem, and the reason they get away with it. People are feeble when it comes to standing up and not letting whoever it is get away with it.

We're so accepting of lies and so rejecting of truth and yet parents teach their kids to be honest while lying through their teeth to them, but as long as people have something to whinge about that's all that matters, so long as they don't have to think and can just get on with their "lives", they can easily push it all under the carpet and pretend it never happened...until next time.

People get what they deserve.

[Peterw]

Originally Posted by elucidate

If everyone who owned a computer started learning how to do this, there would be no more elite, because we'd all be up there. That's really the only way to ♥♥♥♥ them!

I think this would have more of an effect than protesting..

There's only one way to really hurt these people :/

[russianrocket]

Why is it always " we must hurt these people"?

Why do something for the sole reason to hurt someone?

Why not, learn to use the system, and then use the money to help people. Set up college funds. Maybe setup a foundation to guide people in becoming a business man?

No, we must stick it to the man! We gotta hit them where it hurts! Make them all pay! FIGHT THE SYSTEM!

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Why is it always " we must hurt these people"?

Why do something for the sole reason to hurt someone?

Why not, learn to use the system, and then use the money to help people. Set up college funds. Maybe setup a foundation to guide people in becoming a business man?

No, we must stick it to the man! We gotta hit them where it hurts! Make them all pay! FIGHT THE SYSTEM!

You gotta problem with getting rich RR? I'm not making them pay, I'm making them pay ME! Isn't learning to trade learning to 'use the system'?

But seriously, What do you think I intend to do with the money?

Obviously not everyone would be thinking along these lines, but there's a lot of good stuff to be done with enough cash, as per your own suggestions there, and re-directing their profits based in the greed mindset into something a little more sustainable would definitely be putting it to better use wouldn't you say?

It's not even about them really, it's about the money and what it can do to change things. It's not even about hurting them, it's about dissolving the line between the elite and the have-nots, so there is nothing to feed their sick desire and compulsion to be envied all the time by the shitkickers they get to sneer down at, because we'd all be at the same level, and I don't expect them to come down to ours any times soon.

Do you have any idea how much havoc the companies these people get rich off create in the environment, RR, and they have not a care in the world investing in them knowing full well the impact they have, and just not caring?

Now I don't know if any of them give back or anything so I can't speak of their philanthropy, but I can take a guess that most of it does not go towards helping anyone else but themselves, and that's fair enough, it's their money...but I think it can be put to better use, and if it's something available to everyone...why not?

As far as I can see everyone wins in this scenario. They still get to be filthy rich, and so does everyone else. The irony here is not lost on me. You are just as 'hating' of "those young college liberals" who want everything handed to them, as we are towards "those rich people" who want us to stay put and keep serving them on a silver platter.

What's the difference really?

Of course, getting everyone in the world to turn their hand to online trading is probably not realistic...but I like the idea anyway.

[elucidate]

First I need to learn to trade though.

[Peterw]

Originally Posted by elucidate

First I need to learn to trade though.

Start here - Forex Training Online: Learn Foreign Exchange (FX) Currency Trading

Let me know if you have any questions - also Nojobrob and snerp know a thing or 2