Lightworkers, Vegetarianism, Ethics and Smartphones

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

I disagree on this one. If you need to work 18 hour days etc. just to survive, it's not because you want to. They can't leave whenever... I think it's pretty rational to choose horrible conditions over starvation, but no one desires it.

I wanted to chime in and say that I found that quote of Maricones disagreeable as well, for the same reasons...I just couldn't be bothered replying at the time.

Those people are not there because they want to be, who in their right mind would be?

They are there because they need to survive and that's the only option they have given their lot in life and circumstances, lack of education due to poverty etc. Take that away from them and they will literally die of starvation, or be forced into a much worse scenario, as I pointed out earlier.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Those people are not there because they want to be, who in their right mind would be?

I disagree with that. They are there because it's the best choice they have. So they "want" it. Maybe they don't want the situation. But they want it more than the other options. So, in an absolute sense, we can say it's what they "want".

This may have something to do with the definition of words, so I've strived to clarify in the above sentence.

But think about this: who or what is forcing them to work there? I don't think the bosses are forcing them. They can, indeed, leave whenever they want. The other options aren't good. But they can.

Is it their bosses responsibility that the other options aren't good? If they offer the best option, aren't they making their workers' lives better and not worse?

I suggest that the "fault" is poverty in general. Their bosses could help by paying more. But then, we could send support too.

Poverty is everyone's fault.

[russianrocket]

I agree with Andrew

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I disagree with that. They are there because it's the best choice they have. So they "want" it. Maybe they don't want the situation. But they want it more than the other options. So, in an absolute sense, we can say it's what they "want".

I would say they "have to" be there, because it's there only option, not that they 'want' to be there. They 'want' it more than they want to starve, so yeah, in that sense you are right...but I'm not sure it's what they really want, in the true sense of the word.

But think about this: who or what is forcing them to work there? I don't think the bosses are forcing them. They can, indeed, leave whenever they want. The other options aren't good. But they can.

The fact that they need to survive is what is keeping them there. They could leave at any time, but it wouldn't take long to starve if they did. Survival is keeping them there , and the lack of options.

Is it their bosses responsibility that the other options aren't good? If they offer the best option, aren't they making their workers' lives better and not worse?

No, it's not their bosses responsability, He is trying to survive as well and providing them with a means to. I never said the bosses of factories were responsable for their lack of options. They keep them alive, so I'm sure the workers are grateful for that much.

I suggest that the "fault" is poverty in general. Their bosses could help by paying more. But then, we could send support too.

Poverty is everyone's fault.

I agree.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I agree with Andrew

Ouch...that must hurt.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Agota

I actually think that more lightworkers should focus on getting money and power (..power comes in many forms, not only politics) , since this is one of the most effective ways to change the world in my opinion

You're right!

I'm in!

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

You're right!

I'm in!

Me too. Change the world through your business, and then change the world with your profits.

[MariconesUnited]

Regarding the "choice" debate...I think there's nothing worse than telling yourself that you have no choice in life. Sometimes circumstances are difficult. Sometimes they may be barely liveable. But there's always choice. I say this because I hear people say "I had no choice" all the time, and it's disempowering. I'm talking about the issue on a personal development angle now.

I don't mean to downplay these people's suffering. The fact of the matter is that I don't know them and I know little of their working conditions besides an online article or two and hearsay. But maybe they can try fleeing the country and seeking asylum somewhere else? Or work for some other factory? Or not work and starve? Not saying that these choices are easy or obvious. Just that there's always a choice. I empathize with these people.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Regarding the "choice" debate...I think there's nothing worse than telling yourself that you have no choice in life. Sometimes circumstances are difficult. Sometimes they may be barely liveable. But there's always choice. I say this because I hear people say "I had no choice" all the time, and it's disempowering. I'm talking about the issue on a personal development angle now.

I don't mean to downplay these people's suffering. The fact of the matter is that I don't know them and I know little of their working conditions besides an online article or two and hearsay. But maybe they can try fleeing the country and seeking asylum somewhere else? Or work for some other factory? Or not work and starve? Not saying that these choices are easy or obvious. Just that there's always a choice. I empathize with these people.

Sure, and risk getting caught and sent to detention centres for ten years, like they do here in my country.

it's real easy to sit back and say "Why don't they just flee the country...as though it were that simple. If it were that simple we wouldn't have the problem of illegal immigrants bombarding our countries.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Me too. Change the world through your business, and then change the world with your profits.

I love this!

I've just tweeted this quote

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Sure, and risk getting caught and sent to detention centres for ten years, like they do here in my country.

it's real easy to sit back and say "Why don't they just flee the country...as though it were that simple. If it were that simple we wouldn't have the problem of illegal immigrants bombarding our countries.

I'm sorry but you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying their lives are easy or they can only make easy choices or whatnot. I'm not at all trying to downplay their suffering. What I'm saying is that telling yourself that you have no choice in anything in life only serves to disempower yourself. Sometimes we live under the illusion that we have no choice in life even though we always do, however drastic the consequences may seem.

That last part I try to live under as a rule. Facing your fears can be so liberating. Just to get back on topic I think telling other people they have no choice is a terrible thing to do.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

I'm sorry but you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying their lives are easy or they can only make easy choices or whatnot. I'm not at all trying to downplay their suffering. What I'm saying is that telling yourself that you have no choice in anything in life only serves to disempower yourself. Sometimes we live under the illusion that we have no choice in life even though we always do, however drastic the consequences may seem.

That last part I try to live under as a rule. Facing your fears can be so liberating. Just to get back on topic I think telling other people they have no choice is a terrible thing to do.

Oh sure...and I would agree with what you are saying in this case. I guess I read too into what you said at the end...it just sounded so flippantly dismissive.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I suggest that the "fault" is poverty in general. Their bosses could help by paying more. But then, we could send support too.

The tricky part is what kind of support? In cases where people are starving, it's usually not for lack of resources but political unrest.

Unrest which often results from corporate control. If they price goods out of their market, they can't get their hands on them, people have to scrimp for what they need, poverty endures and it feeds all the other problems.

The trickle-down principle works, just not the way Reagan sold it. Of course I don't think we can afford to wait until the system changes to send some help to them, again the question is what, where, and how much?

It isn't insurmountable-nothing is-but wrestling with the reality of the situation is mentally taxing, to say the least.

[ZephyrusX]

I don't think psychology and sociology are mutually exclusive categories. That is, you can only speak of meaningful choices and personal responsibility within the context of internal and external resources. Sometimes, in order to generate more meaningful choices, you have to change the structural causes that create a particular environment. Choosing to focus on the structural doesn't some how absolve people from personal responsibility nor does it conflict with individual choice. In my mind, it doesn't anyway.

There is a wide variance in individual behaviour and choice within marginalized populations just as in any other population. This conversation might not reflect that, but there is. Case in point: some of the organizations that try to change the structural causes for poor working conditions and poverty in third world countries (instability of export processing zones/'Flying Geese Model', corrupt governments, global market place etc) are organized and staffed by some of the people who either worked or work in these conditions.

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Regarding the "choice" debate...I think there's nothing worse than telling yourself that you have no choice in life. Sometimes circumstances are difficult. Sometimes they may be barely liveable. But there's always choice. I say this because I hear people say "I had no choice" all the time, and it's disempowering. I'm talking about the issue on a personal development angle now.

I don't mean to downplay these people's suffering. The fact of the matter is that I don't know them and I know little of their working conditions besides an online article or two and hearsay. But maybe they can try fleeing the country and seeking asylum somewhere else? Or work for some other factory? Or not work and starve? Not saying that these choices are easy or obvious. Just that there's always a choice. I empathize with these people.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Oh sure...and I would agree with what you are saying in this case. I guess I read too into what you said at the end...it just sounded so flippantly dismissive.

No problem. Glad we could clear that up.

Zephyrux, I see what you're saying it makes a lot of sense. But if we agree with the argument then how do we go about changing the structure? Towards what?

[Brutha]

You don't turn bad conditions into good conditions in a single year. Economic prosperity needs time.
The fact that this system allows the Chinese economy to grow 10% per year is good.
Every year millions of Chinese leaves poverty.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I wanted to chime in and say that I found that quote of Maricones disagreeable as well, for the same reasons...I just couldn't be bothered replying at the time.

Just noticed something. That quote was Andrew's not mine. No biggie.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Just noticed something. That quote was Andrew's not mine. No biggie.

Ah ok...sometimes your names all blend into one to me.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Ah ok...sometimes your names all blend into one to me.

Which quote??

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

These workers obviously took the job because they wanted to. As such, they could have left whenever. Is it, then, the company that brought them to suicide? Or something else?

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Agota

First, I'm not aware of how people are being treated during the production of smart phones.

Second, I think that businesses should pay people as much as they can afford, not as little as they can get away with, as well as to provide the best working conditions they can possibly provide.

Third, I think that topic of child labor in developing countries is not that black and white as it often seems to western people. I'm in no way supporting exploiting children to make profits, but.. It might very well be that the kid is happy that he has that job, because he gets some money to buy food and probably some money to help this family, because if not that factory or wherever he works in, he and his family would be starving. When we look at it, we might think it's horrible, when people who are starving look at it, they might think it's an amazing opportunity for them. This is why I believe that people who are into fighting with child labor should make sure that they are looking for real solutions, not shutting down factories and leaving kids to die from hunger or live in extreme poverty.

Hell, it's not cut and dried in -Western- countries. I would at least liked to have been able to take advantage of minimum wage laws when I was working at 10-13 (I don't want to derail this thread to much with details, but I couldn't work in the capacities that would have given me any decent money. I got people to hire me in gray areas for ridiculously little money).

But yes, the problem is systematic in the first place and child labor is a result of it. But the jobs themselves, child or not, are in horrible conditions and boycotting products produce in them can force a change if enough people do it. But that's not a very effective way to do it, as I see has already been discussed.

[ZephyrusX]

Nope, its not. There is a large underground, grey area in North American labour markets that avoid employment laws and treat their workers horribly because they can get away with it, but then, the workers who go to this underground labour market do so because they are being marginalized and shut out by the State and economy in some way. My sister ended up taking such a job.

If people are marginalized in some way, they will seek out illegal ways to solve their problems and there will always be people around to take advantage of their problems. Its not nice, but it is true. Unfortunately, the State often just shuts these industries down (as was the case in a Toronto textile factory that illegally hired immigrants a few years back), but the State never addresses the issue of why people go to this job market to begin with. This isn't solving the problem.

@MariconesUnited - I just want to say that I saw your question and acknowledge it. I haven't forgotten about it. I just feel disinclined to answer as there is no simple solution to the problem.

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Hell, it's not cut and dried in -Western- countries. I would at least liked to have been able to take advantage of minimum wage laws when I was working at 10-13 (I don't want to derail this thread to much with details, but I couldn't work in the capacities that would have given me any decent money. I got people to hire me in gray areas for ridiculously little money).

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Nope, its not. There is a large underground, grey area in North American labour markets that avoid employment laws and treat their workers horribly because they can get away with it, but then, the workers who go to this underground labour market do so because they are being marginalized and shut out by the State and economy in some way. My sister ended up taking such a job.

If people are marginalized in some way, they will seek out illegal ways to solve their problems and there will always be people around to take advantage of their problems. Its not nice, but it is true. Unfortunately, the State often just shuts these industries down (as was the case in a Toronto textile factory that illegally hired immigrants a few years back), but the State never addresses the issue of why people go to this job market to begin with. This isn't solving the problem.

Agreed. The only experience or real knowledge of the laws I have around this issue does concern youth, and it's very much an ignored issue in the US. The attitude is almost entirely concerned with parent's rights, and that stays true until there is a bottle and bruises. Emancipation is almost a joke, as it requires resources those who want it will practically by definition not have; and if it falls through in court, they're just in for another few with people who now have more incentive to treat them poorly. Those under 18 have so few rights in my country it's astounding.

[ZephyrusX]

I actually don't know much about how labour laws apply to people under the age of 18. I'm interested in it though. Do you have any recommended resources (books, blogs, articles) on the matter or did you accumulate this knowledge through personal experience and/or multiple sources that you didn't keep track of?

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Agreed. The only experience or real knowledge of the laws I have around this issue does concern youth, and it's very much an ignored issue in the US. The attitude is almost entirely concerned with parent's rights, and that stays true until there is a bottle and bruises. Emancipation is almost a joke, as it requires resources those who want it will practically by definition not have; and if it falls through in court, they're just in for another few with people who now have more incentive to treat them poorly. Those under 18 have so few rights in my country it's astounding.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I actually don't know much about how labour laws apply to people under the age of 18. I'm interested in it though. Do you have any recommended resources (books, blogs, articles) on the matter or did you accumulate this knowledge through personal experience and/or multiple sources that you didn't keep track of?

I don't have any experience or knowledge whatsoever, but an inspired Wikipedia search led me to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childre...ights_movement

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

@MariconesUnited - I just want to say that I saw your question and acknowledge it. I haven't forgotten about it. I just feel disinclined to answer as there is no simple solution to the problem.

No problem. I appreciate your honesty. I feel the same way to be honest.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Hell, it's not cut and dried in -Western- countries. I would at least liked to have been able to take advantage of minimum wage laws when I was working at 10-13 (I don't want to derail this thread to much with details, but I couldn't work in the capacities that would have given me any decent money. I got people to hire me in gray areas for ridiculously little money).

Exploitation of child labor goes on in western countries as well, as you have experienced. I think McDonald's pays more than it used to, but it's still under $10 an hour here I think, though don't quote me on that. Conditions are slightly better, but still not anywhere near what you would expect for developed nations.

But yes, the problem is systematic in the first place and child labor is a result of it. But the jobs themselves, child or not, are in horrible conditions and boycotting products produce in them can force a change if enough people do it. But that's not a very effective way to do it, as I see has already been discussed.

On the surface it makes complete sense, but when you really think about it, it leaves them out in the cold if people stop buying the product. Someone was saying that there are always choices and options...and yeah, there are, but they are limited compared to the choices and options most of us are privelaged to have, which is easy to forget when you don't actually live in that world.

If you aren't aware of Personal Development and the Law of Attraction or any of the things we all speak about daily and practise, and all there is is stark reality, it's beyond difficult to realize that you can shift your thoughts to accomodate the reality you want. It can be done, but how, if no one has actually taught these people they can reach for more than what they settle for?

Take the mental state of depression, where the person develops a sort of tunnel vision where they can't see outside of the fog they are in to recognise they can get help or change their situation...in their universe, the situation seems hopeless and there is no way out. In reality that isn't the case, but try convincing them of that...it's the same with these people, who have been raised to believe they will never be more than factory workers.

I've worked in a banana factory during my travels around Australia and I can tell you, the people there had been there since they were kids, and never left. Some of them were in their 60's.

[ZephyrusX]

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I don't have any experience or knowledge whatsoever, but an inspired Wikipedia search led me to this: Children's rights movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I actually don't know much about how labour laws apply to people under the age of 18. I'm interested in it though. Do you have any recommended resources (books, blogs, articles) on the matter or did you accumulate this knowledge through personal experience and/or multiple sources that you didn't keep track of?

The latter . The laws are well-intentioned and work for many people, but I still think in their current form they're a hindrance to young people that want to empower themselves (or get out of a situation they don't want to be in, but the law can't really do anything about). In the US they vary state-to-state, but generally you are allowed to work at 16, often with limits on type of work and hours (hours limitations are based around traditional school hours and curfews; whereas type of work limitations are based around safety and liability and are mostly very reasonable). The specifics of a certain states laws can usually be found online pretty readily.

In addition to the article Micheal Chui linked to, there is also the Youth Rights movement, which focuses less on protection and more on empowerment. The main flaw of the children's rights movement in my opinion is that it define 'child' as anyone under 18 when someone truly at the mercy of their caretakers is going to need different legal treatment than someone who is able to take care of themselves and still continuing their education.