The Cult of the Job

[CroMagna]

"On The Leisure Track
by D. JoAnne Swanson

The Cult of the Job

I am job-free. Out of the rat race. Unemployed, as they say, but definitely by choice. My self-esteem is intact, thank you, I'm not "in transition", and I have no intention of getting a job again.

That's right--I'm on the leisure track permanently. I don't have a cushy nine-to-five job with profit-sharing, "security", stock options, health insurance, advancement opportunities, or free parking. I also don't have to deal with office politics, attending motivation seminars, climbing the corporate ladder, employee evaluations, increasing productivity, the absurd "team player" mentality, brown-nosing, mandatory overtime, stressful commutes in rush-hour traffic, being trapped in a cubicle, or the threat of being pink-slipped. Oh, and let's not forget--I don't have the expense of a "professional" wardrobe, strong coffee to wake me up every morning, or "power lunches".

I wouldn't have it any other way."

http://whywork.org/about/features/stories/jobcult.html

[Blueskied]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

I also don't have to deal with..., attending motivation seminars, ...

hahaha

[SnerpGoodWord]

These anti-job articles never provide concrete ideas on how these jobless people will cover their living expenses let alone access benefits like health insurance that can't easily be purchased on the open market. That's great if you're a trustafarian or can sponge off your spouse or whatever and useless otherwise.

Nearly everyone would love to swap their job for more leisure. The issue is not desire. The issue is logistics. The fact that no one (including, it would seem, Steve) has much to say about the logistics side makes me highly suspicious of this whole line of thinking.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Blueskied

hahaha

And ironic, what with this site being in part a sales page for motivational seminars.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

The fact that no one (including, it would seem, Steve) has much to say about the logistics side makes me highly suspicious of this whole line of thinking.

That's unfair. Steve has said a substantial amount on the logistics of not having a 9-to-5 job. He's promoted several different ways to be self-employed.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

That's unfair. Steve has said a substantial amount on the logistics of not having a 9-to-5 job. He's promoted several different ways to be self-employed.

I disagree. I asked him twice point blank where he got the money to pay his rent, food, and medical during the period where his software business was losing money. The closest I've seen to an answer is articles about shifting your "vibe" or whatever. That's all well and good, but vibe doesn't buy medical treatment for your family.

My best guess is that he had an external source of money - Erin working, family money, something. But I don't know and he hasn't said.

[justhopingandsearching]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

I disagree. I asked him twice point blank where he got the money to pay his rent, food, and medical during the period where his software business was losing money. The closest I've seen to an answer is articles about shifting your "vibe" or whatever. That's all well and good, but vibe doesn't buy medical treatment for your family.

My best guess is that he had an external source of money - Erin working, family money, something. But I don't know and he hasn't said.

I think he wrote in one of his articles that he borrowed from a family member. Don't know if it was a continuous thing or a one time thing, though.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

during the period where his software business was losing money

Oh. I thought you were making a valid objection, rather than quibbling over difficulties. My mistake.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Oh. I thought you were making a valid objection, rather than quibbling over difficulties. My mistake.

Since the vast majority of businesses lose money up front, it seems to me valid to ask where food, rent and medical money is going to come from during that period. I'm getting suspicious that the reason no one answers is that no one has an answer other than sponging off someone else.

Go look in the business forum at all the people who have businesses making less than $1k per month. And they've been working trying to get those running for months or even years. If someone actually quit their job to start one of those businesses they'd bleed money during that period. It's not a "quibble" to ask where that money is supposed to come from.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by justhopingandsearching

I think he wrote in one of his articles that he borrowed from a family member. Don't know if it was a continuous thing or a one time thing, though.

I think he said he owed his family money at the time he went bankrupt. It wasn't clear if it was from that period, or something else.

That said, shifting ones vibe comes across a little differently if the "abundance vibe" is a result of money from mommy and daddy. That's all good, but doesn't work so well for the majority of people who can't count on their parents or other family members to cover the bills.

Again, not saying that's Steve's case since I believe he's never spoken clearly to the point. Just saying that the devil's in the details here.

[aelle]

There are 2 reasons why the attempts of the majority of the "down with the jobs, out of the rat race" movement baffle me. First, all of their desires are achievable within an employment framework. Hi, I'm an employee and I get up whenever I want, I can work in my pjs if I want to, I make up my own schedule, I travel a lot to places I love, I take the time to prepare home coked meals 3 times a day and to take 2 hour-long walks with my dog, I only talk to people I enjoy talking to and I don't take stupid orders. The money and benefits aren't half bad either. The second thing is that most self-employed people or business creators go bankrupt within 3 years, the next larger group having an even more undesirable fate: making just enough profit to survive (and not want to put your business out of its misery) but never enough to rise above the poverty line.

Now here's my question: why do the people who never managed to achieve an exceptionally awesome life situation within the employment framework believe they will be able to do it within the unemployment framework?

[Cado]

How do you talk logistics about something that is so personal? Unless you're selling a system there is no one article or book you or anyone else could write that would apply to everyone in every situation.

You want something in-depth? There's plenty out there, the Four-Hour Workweek being one of the best examples. Tim Ferriss provides an insane number of resources and tools for the would-be entrepreneur, and that's just the business end of things.

This stuff is out there and it doesn't take a whole ton of searching, the only question is whether or not you want to do it.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by aelle

Now here's my question: why do the people who never managed to achieve an exceptionally awesome life situation within the employment framework believe they will be able to do it within the unemployment framework?

That's actually why it's so important to focus on the consciousness behind it. The exact arrangement that'll work differs from person to person but that is a constant.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

Since the vast majority of businesses lose money up front, it seems to me valid to ask where food, rent and medical money is going to come from during that period. I'm getting suspicious that the reason no one answers is that no one has an answer other than sponging off someone else.

Go look in the business forum at all the people who have businesses making less than $1k per month. And they've been working trying to get those running for months or even years. If someone actually quit their job to start one of those businesses they'd bleed money during that period. It's not a "quibble" to ask where that money is supposed to come from.

Which suggests you simply have no idea how to manage money. Operating in the red does not mean penniless. Even if you're penniless, it's possible to go extended periods without food, live out in the street, and simply ignore medical problems. If you can't do that, then you need to recognize that the "security" offered by 9-to-5 jobs is not fictional and is in fact catered exactly towards people like you.

Besides, most people who do this simply save up from the period when they were employed. If I were to quit my job tomorrow, I could live comfortably at my current rate of expenditure for a long time, and if I made an effort, I could radically decrease my costs to multiply that time.

I'm just not interested because

Originally Posted by aelle

all of their desires are achievable within an employment framework

^ that.

Every single perk listed in the OP is one I have as a jobbed, employed individual.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Cado

How do you talk logistics about something that is so personal?

Give an example. Steve says he did it, so he should be able to explain one way. It's not reasonable to expect him to talk about ALL ways or the BEST way, but he should be able to offer one. Where did his money come from?

Of course, the answer might not be as black and white up-by-the-bootstraps as a lot of people are making it out to be. "I avoided having to get a job by starting a business with money borrowed from my family" is legit. But it also opens the door to acknowledging that's not an option for everyone. It's a lot more nuanced and realistic than the whole "abundance vibe" thing.

[newmark]

Snerp Good Word makes a good point about the time after giving up your job until the time your business makes money. There IS a period of time, when even if you are doing everything correctly, you will have a very low income, or no income. It's important to talk about how to deal with this when encouraging people to quit their jobs.

I think this period of difficult time is ignored by just about everybody who promotes giving up your job and pursuing the life you dream.

Steve has recently suggested that readers take a look (again) at his videos on creating abundance. These videos contain some good ideas, but even if everything works when your adopt this kind of positive feeling/thinking, there is still the need to feed yourself UNTIL your business idea actually brings in money - or fails, and you need to create a new approach.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Which suggests you simply have no idea how to manage money. Operating in the red does not mean penniless.

Unless you have some other source of money it does. And the no-job thesis seems to imply that that money should come from something other than a previous job. So it's reasonable to ask "Where?"

Even if you're penniless, it's possible to go extended periods without food, live out in the street, and simply ignore medical problems. If you can't do that, then you need to recognize that the "security" offered by 9-to-5 jobs is not fictional and is in fact catered exactly towards people like you.

No argument here. In the absence of other sources of funding the choice would appear to be job vs. at least temporary destitution. Yet the no-job thesis never seems to discuss that issue. Leisure achieved at the cost of eating out of dumpsters or watching a loved one die (or leave you) for lack of medical care seems like hollow comfort.

[SatvikBeri]

Originally Posted by aelle

There are 2 reasons why the attempts of the majority of the "down with the jobs, out of the rat race" movement baffle me. First, all of their desires are achievable within an employment framework. Hi, I'm an employee and I get up whenever I want, I can work in my pjs if I want to, I make up my own schedule, I travel a lot to places I love, I take the time to prepare home coked meals 3 times a day and to take 2 hour-long walks with my dog, I only talk to people I enjoy talking to and I don't take stupid orders. The money and benefits aren't half bad either. The second thing is that most self-employed people or business creators go bankrupt within 3 years, the next larger group having an even more undesirable fate: making just enough profit to survive (and not want to put your business out of its misery) but never enough to rise above the poverty line.

Now here's my question: why do the people who never managed to achieve an exceptionally awesome life situation within the employment framework believe they will be able to do it within the unemployment framework?

This is basically my point of view. It's amazing how easily people get "trapped" in the idea of some sort of power structure between them and their employer. But if you 1. know how to contribute massive value, and 2. understand politics and negotiation, you can pretty much dictate whatever terms you want. But almost everyone who has (1) lacks (2).

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

These anti-job articles never provide concrete ideas on how these jobless people will cover their living expenses let alone access benefits like health insurance that can't easily be purchased on the open market. That's great if you're a trustafarian or can sponge off your spouse or whatever and useless otherwise.

Nearly everyone would love to swap their job for more leisure. The issue is not desire. The issue is logistics. The fact that no one (including, it would seem, Steve) has much to say about the logistics side makes me highly suspicious of this whole line of thinking.

Exactly. Without a list of concrete ways to earn money through other income streams, they're just blowing hot air.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by aelle

There are 2 reasons why the attempts of the majority of the "down with the jobs, out of the rat race" movement baffle me. First, all of their desires are achievable within an employment framework. Hi, I'm an employee and I get up whenever I want, I can work in my pjs if I want to, I make up my own schedule, I travel a lot to places I love, I take the time to prepare home coked meals 3 times a day and to take 2 hour-long walks with my dog, I only talk to people I enjoy talking to and I don't take stupid orders. The money and benefits aren't half bad either. The second thing is that most self-employed people or business creators go bankrupt within 3 years, the next larger group having an even more undesirable fate: making just enough profit to survive (and not want to put your business out of its misery) but never enough to rise above the poverty line.

Now here's my question: why do the people who never managed to achieve an exceptionally awesome life situation within the employment framework believe they will be able to do it within the unemployment framework?

What do you do?

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by SatvikBeri

This is basically my point of view. It's amazing how easily people get "trapped" in the idea of some sort of power structure between them and their employer. But if you 1. know how to contribute massive value, and 2. understand politics and negotiation, you can pretty much dictate whatever terms you want. But almost everyone who has (1) lacks (2).

You honestly think you could negotiate with your average employer to work from home or show up whenever you want?

[SatvikBeri]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

You honestly think you could negotiate with your average employer to work from home or show up whenever you want?

Well, I did this. After a year at my current job I negotiated an 80% raise + the option to work remotely full time, doing stuff that takes me just a couple hours a day. My current employer is one of the largest banks in the world, so they're a pretty average employer. I ended up turning that down for a better one with another company, though.

I'm not saying that you could achieve this with every employer-some just have ridiculous, overly restrictive policies. But I think it's easier to get a higher reward for your effort through a job, in many cases. And if you can't contribute enough value to get those rewards through a job-what makes you think you can get them through your own business?

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

I disagree. I asked him twice point blank where he got the money to pay his rent, food, and medical during the period where his software business was losing money. The closest I've seen to an answer is articles about shifting your "vibe" or whatever. That's all well and good, but vibe doesn't buy medical treatment for your family.

My best guess is that he had an external source of money - Erin working, family money, something. But I don't know and he hasn't said.

a rich Uncle, maybe?

Won the Lottery maybe?

Where in this Forum, is Hidden this answer?

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by SatvikBeri

Well, I did this. After a year at my current job I negotiated an 80% raise + the option to work remotely full time, doing stuff that takes me just a couple hours a day. My current employer is one of the largest banks in the world, so they're a pretty average employer. I ended up turning that down for a better one with another company, though.

I'm not saying that you could achieve this with every employer-some just have ridiculous, overly restrictive policies. But I think it's easier to get a higher reward for your effort through a job, in many cases. And if you can't contribute enough value to get those rewards through a job-what makes you think you can get them through your own business?

You must be superb at negotiating. But for shy, introverted people who are afraid of getting pink-slipped, it just seems impossible to negotiate to work from home.

[Andrew Brunelle]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

"On The Leisure Track
by D. JoAnne Swanson

The Cult of the Job

I am job-free. Out of the rat race. Unemployed, as they say, but definitely by choice. My self-esteem is intact, thank you, I'm not "in transition", and I have no intention of getting a job again.

That's right--I'm on the leisure track permanently. I don't have a cushy nine-to-five job with profit-sharing, "security", stock options, health insurance, advancement opportunities, or free parking. I also don't have to deal with office politics, attending motivation seminars, climbing the corporate ladder, employee evaluations, increasing productivity, the absurd "team player" mentality, brown-nosing, mandatory overtime, stressful commutes in rush-hour traffic, being trapped in a cubicle, or the threat of being pink-slipped. Oh, and let's not forget--I don't have the expense of a "professional" wardrobe, strong coffee to wake me up every morning, or "power lunches".

I wouldn't have it any other way."

http://whywork.org/about/features/stories/jobcult.html

I've read this before. It's really easy not to have a job when you're the heir to the Swanson corporation. I'm going on vacation in a few days for a week and see how I like the leisure track. I'm probably going to work on my blog/website and make it better. Perhaps even create a way to monetize it.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

You must be superb at negotiating. But for shy, introverted people who are afraid of getting pink-slipped, it just seems impossible to negotiate to work from home.

No one says you have to go from shy and introverted to capable negotiator overnight. Is there a single step you can take in the direction of being a capable negotiator? How about curiosity as to how Satvik did it?

[James Fletcher]

Getting by without having a job. How did Steve do it? Why do so many people try and fail to do it?

From my observations, it seems to be a lifelong trait of Steve's to simply not follow certain social conventions, in favor of new experiences or simply for the sake of practicality A few examples:

- Early on in his life, he went against his family and abandoned religion. This would not have been as easy as it sounds. It was not a matter of his church attendance simply fizzling after going to college or moving out of home. He made a clear cut decision that this was what he wanted to do. Many people would not be able to stand the guilt of going against their parents in such a manner, and some have a hard wired fear of angering an all powerful deity.

- Also during his youth he shoplifted, stole cars and counted cards. He has admitted that he enjoyed taking risks. Again, not paths that most people would take, either they would not be clever enough to pull it off and would end up getting caught, or they would be heavily bound by morality, and not wish to explore the boundaries of their code.

- Most relevant to this discussion would be his work life. His first serious income was from contract work programming games. This was a position where he was allowed to work at his own pace - even though he invested many hours regardless. It was also something where his creative input was highly valued, and it was not a matter of simply showing up somewhere everyday, being another pair of hands on an assembly line, another cog in the machinery, etc. He also began this at a young age.

In summation, basically, Steve succeeded without being an employee by never being indoctrinated into the "9 to 5 rat race" ideology. It was simply never hard wired into his brain that a job is necessary to survive; therefore no part of his "life infrastructure" is dependent upon income from an employer.

Compare this to the average lifelong worker. He probably got his first job during adolescence at a burger joint or a shop. In these formative years he learned that playing it safe and following the rules would always get him a paycheck.

He maybe goes to college, gets a slightly better job, gets married, gets a mortgage and a car. All of his friends and family are pretty much in the same position as him. His "life infrastructure" is very much dependent upon that regular paycheck. The concept of being an employee is so hard wired into his brain that any slight suggestion of being out of work most likely manifests a feeling of deep fear in the pit of his stomach. No job? Does not compute.

Point is not to criticize people who hold the employee mindset, but rather to explore and define why it can be so difficult to change.

[moonrambler]

There also are a ton of jobs that can't be done remotely, and a lot of people who aren't a good fit for the jobs that can be.

[Lanya]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

I disagree. I asked him twice point blank where he got the money to pay his rent, food, and medical during the period where his software business was losing money. The closest I've seen to an answer is articles about shifting your "vibe" or whatever. That's all well and good, but vibe doesn't buy medical treatment for your family.

My best guess is that he had an external source of money - Erin working, family money, something. But I don't know and he hasn't said.

From What I Learned From Going Bankrupt in My 20s That Proves to Be Immensely Valuable in My 30s

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

In order to make ends meet, I did some computer consulting and tutoring on the side, while Erin helped small businesses make web sites (and I occasionally helped her with that too). We made just enough money to scrape by, often ending the month with less than $100 to our names.

[SnerpGoodWord]

OK, so the proposed means of not having a job is to have a bunch of other, low paying jobs? I can almost feel the freedom & leisure...

I also doubt any of those jobs are substantial enough to offer medical coverage.