The Cult of the Job

[Lanya]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

OK, so the proposed means of not having a job is to have a bunch of other, low paying jobs? I can almost feel the freedom & leisure...

I also doubt any of those jobs are substantial enough to offer medical coverage.

When you asked Steve where he got money, did he say he specifically paid for medical treatment?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

OK, so the proposed means of not having a job is to have a bunch of other, low paying jobs? I can almost feel the freedom & leisure...

I also doubt any of those jobs are substantial enough to offer medical coverage.

Hey, if you don't have the moxie to do it, don't.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Hey, if you don't have the moxie to do it, don't.

When it comes to things like being able to afford medical care for ones family, I think it makes more sense to discuss responsibility than moxie.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Lanya

When you asked Steve where he got money, did he say he specifically paid for medical treatment?

No - he gave no specifics.

[SatvikBeri]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

You must be superb at negotiating. But for shy, introverted people who are afraid of getting pink-slipped, it just seems impossible to negotiate to work from home.

What can I say here?

I could talk about how due to certain childhood traumas, I grew up with harsh limiting beliefs that severely impaired my ability to confront people at any level.

I could talk about how I'm so introverted that even six months ago my coworkers referred to me as "That quiet guy who sits near the door."

I could talk about how you need to negotiate even MORE in your own ventures, because you'll be talking to customers and have to raise prices, set terms, not give in to ridiculous demands etc.

Would any of that help you move from the mindset of avoiding things because they seem like they might be difficult, and into the mindset of finding something you like and pushing through to make it happen regardless of obstacles? No matter what, you'll face SOME challenges along the way. My concern is that your current fixation on "not having a job" is just a way to avoid finding and pursuing what you DO want. You haven't really given any convincing reasons WHY a non-job would be more helpful in achieving your goals than a job.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

When it comes to things like being able to afford medical care for ones family, I think it makes more sense to discuss responsibility than moxie.

In other words, you don't have it. Just because your reasons are valid does not lessen the fact that you don't have it. I'm not a female because I was born male, but that doesn't lessen the fact that I'm not female. You have no moxie. You don't have what it takes because you place certain concerns first, and they're valid concerns, but that does not change the fact that you don't have what it takes.

Why do you think that the first question people ask when suggesting these things is, "Do you have a family to look after?"

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Why do you think that the first question people ask when suggesting these things is, "Do you have a family to look after?"

Actually, I've never once seen one of these articles ask that. That's in essence my problem with them.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by SatvikBeri

And if you can't contribute enough value to get those rewards through a job-what makes you think you can get them through your own business?

Exactly.

Originally Posted by CroMagna

What do you do?

The shortest way of putting it is to say that I do business development for an engineering company.

Originally Posted by CroMagna

You must be superb at negotiating. But for shy, introverted people who are afraid of getting pink-slipped, it just seems impossible to negotiate to work from home.

I am introverted too (another reason why working from home is a superb arrangement for me!) As for the fear of being fired, SatvikBeri has the right idea with being an excellent performer. Make yourself essential and promote your brilliance before making any demands. Then not ony will your employer have a hard time saying no, other offers will be lining up.

Do you know Ramit Seti's blog? He has great articles along these lines. He has a system to show one's brilliance and necessity on the day of the interview.

[Lanya]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

Actually, I've never once seen one of these articles ask that. That's in essence my problem with them.

From that same article:

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

By ignoring the various problems in my life and focusing on creative self-expression, the major problems solved themselves.

Perhaps what happened when you were talking to Steve, is that you were asking Steve to focus on the logistics, when he was [possibly] saying that focusing on logistics was what got him bankrupt. For Steve to tell you about the logistics, would be to encourage you to focus on logistics (the action that got him bankrupt).

Why would he encourage you to do something that led him to bankruptcy?

('course, I'm not Steve, so I can't say for sure that this is what he was thinking)

[aelle]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

When it comes to things like being able to afford medical care for ones family, I think it makes more sense to discuss responsibility than moxie.

I actually remember Steve talking about health insurance once - specifically, about how he and his family don't need it because they eat a high raw vegan diet, don't vax and are careful when crossing the street. I can't tell you what article it was from, but it struck me as an extremely privileged and short-sighted thing to say.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by aelle

I actually remember Steve talking about health insurance once - specifically, about how he and his family don't need it because they eat a high raw vegan diet, don't vax and are careful when crossing the street. I can't tell you what article it was from, but it struck me as an extremely privileged and short-sighted thing to say.

Yeah, I remember that too. I hoped at the time he was being flippant. It's possible he eventually made enough money that self-insurance became a feasible option, but certainly that wasn't always the case and he does have kids. I'm OK with adults choosing to risk their own lives on a decision like that, but it's a lot dicier with kids.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Lanya

From that same article:



Perhaps what happened when you were talking to Steve, is that you were asking Steve to focus on the logistics, when he was [possibly] saying that focusing on logistics was what got him bankrupt. For Steve to tell you about the logistics, would be to encourage you to focus on logistics (the action that got him bankrupt).

Why would he encourage you to do something that led him to bankruptcy?

('course, I'm not Steve, so I can't say for sure that this is what he was thinking)

So the solution to the problem is creative expression AND vibe? That really gets down to the details doesn't it?

[Lanya]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

So the solution to the problem is creative expression AND vibe? That really gets down to the details doesn't it?

You don't seem to think his perspective is worth any serious consideration (like even for a second), am I reading you right?

[Mariana Trench]

I'm confused. Was anyone telling people who don't want to or don't think they can to quit their jobs? I don't think I saw that.

Personally, while I'd like to be self-employed in the long term, I'd be grateful for a job right now.

I'm not sure if these were the "details" posters were looking for, but Tim Ferris has a series of example businesses on his blog. The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss — Muse Examples
I'd imagine where people got the interim money from varies highly on a individual basis. I haven't seen anyone say, either, that we don't live in a world where jobs are the standard; or where on earth one would get the idea money from previous jobs was "off limits".

[newmark]

So Steve was working at temporary jobs while he made the transition. This makes sense, of course. Most anti-job articles read as if it's all or nothing.

I think having a series of temporary, low paying, boring jobs is probably the way to go if you're single and you want the motivation to follow your dreams. Having to abandon a 'comfortable' job will only hold you back.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by newmark

So Steve was working at temporary jobs while he made the transition. This makes sense, of course. Most anti-job articles read as if it's all or nothing.

I think having a series of temporary, low paying, boring jobs is probably the way to go if you're single and you want the motivation to follow your dreams. Having to abandon a 'comfortable' job will only hold you back.

Married isn't so much the issue as having dependents of any kind, it would seem.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Lanya

You don't seem to think his perspective is worth any serious consideration (like even for a second), am I reading you right?

I don't think creative expression will put food on the table or send the kids to the doctor when they need it, no.

I'm not at all sure it's Steve's position that it will though since he seems rather vague on the point.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by newmark

So Steve was working at temporary jobs while he made the transition. This makes sense, of course. Most anti-job articles read as if it's all or nothing.

Yeah, this just seems to be common sense. If you want to transition into some new career or start a business, it seems only logical to cover the money gap at the beginning with a job. Yet nearly every anti-job article seems to argue against it. It's baffling.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Married isn't so much the issue as having dependents of any kind, it would seem.

Yeah, a spouse can agree as an adult to make sacrifices with you and/or work to cover their own expenses. Kids, not so much.

[Lioness]

Originally Posted by newmark

So Steve was working at temporary jobs while he made the transition.

I don't think Steve considered any of those income streams to be a job, more like independent contract work where he still set his own hours, terms etc. He has never been on a payroll in a "beige cage". While I admire him, it's not for everyone and I agree with Aielle. There are jobs that have the perks of self-employment with more financial security and other benefits.

[CroMagna]

I agree with Snerp. These types of articles just get people's hopes up and they have to watch them dash down as they realize they won't be able to support themselves with a job.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Hey, if you don't have the moxie to do it, don't.

What are you talking about? Snerp's point is that it's highly unrealistic to support yourself without a job, because nobody who writes stuff like this ever gives concrete suggestions on how to go about doing that. I would add that this is true even if you don't have kids, unless you plan to sponge off your poor parents for life.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Snerp's point is that it's highly unrealistic to support yourself without a job, because nobody who writes stuff like this ever gives concrete suggestions on how to go about doing that.

And Michael's and Steve's point was that what's 'realistic' is in the eyes of the beholder.

It's very possible to ignore reality and what's 'realistic' and come out on the other end of it better, not worse, than you left it. That's all.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

What are you talking about? Snerp's point is that it's highly unrealistic to support yourself without a job, because nobody who writes stuff like this ever gives concrete suggestions on how to go about doing that. I would add that this is true even if you don't have kids, unless you plan to sponge off your poor parents for life.

I'm curious, CroMagna,

What are you talking about? Why did you start this thread? At first, I thought it was just your paper libertarianism, but since you seem to be openly mocking the quoted article, it seems more like a request for pity from the painful burden of being real.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I'm curious, CroMagna,

What are you talking about? Why did you start this thread? At first, I thought it was just your paper libertarianism, but since you seem to be openly mocking the quoted article, it seems more like a request for pity from the painful burden of being real.

What do you mean by paper libertarianism? I call myself that because I believe people should do whatever they want without infringing on other people's rights. So what the heck do you mean by that?

At first I liked the article and thought it was worth considering, but I think Snerp makes excellent points.

[newmark]

Originally Posted by Lioness

I don't think Steve considered any of those income streams to be a job, more like independent contract work where he still set his own hours, terms etc. He has never been on a payroll in a "beige cage". While I admire him, it's not for everyone and I agree with Aielle. There are jobs that have the perks of self-employment with more financial security and other benefits.

He might or might not consider them to be jobs, I don't know, but they were jobs nevertheless. A job does not have to be a regular salaried position in a company. Your view of a job seems to be restricted to "beige cages." I've had many jobs in my life, but I've never found one of those cages. For many people in the world, jobs are insecure things without many benefits, but they do provide a source of income when needed.

[Acting Like Godot]

It is possible to be either self-employed or an employee, and:

(1) make lots of money, or earn very little;
(2) have plenty of leisure time, or very little of it;
(3) enjoy your work very much, or hate it;
(4) enjoy a strong sense of control, or feel very tiny and powerless.

That is the simple truth of the matter.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

It is possible to be either self-employed or an employee, and:

(1) make lots of money, or earn very little;
(2) have plenty of leisure time, or very little of it;
(3) enjoy your work very much, or hate it;
(4) enjoy a strong sense of control, or feel very tiny and powerless.

That is the simple truth of the matter.

Making it a little less simple, could you add percentages to those denoting what percentage of people you think fall into each category?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Making it a little less simple, could you add percentages to those denoting what percentage of people you think fall into each category?

I think that it is very difficult to say. There is too much variety in employment and self-employment, to draw any easy generalizations.

I feel that a common misperception is that self-employed people enjoy more leisure time. I find this very doubtful. I have met many self-employed people who have very little leisure time and work very hard. Usually because they are running their own small businesses and they have to handle all different aspects (including areas which they do not like and do not have expertise in) as they lack economy of scale to hire the skills they need.

For example, a large company may have a finance department, a HR department, an operations department, a sales department, a legal department, a tax department, a research & development department, a marketing department.

If you are self-employed, you probably don't have that. This means you have to deal with all these things yourself - bookkeeping, cash flows, operations, logistics, procurement, customer relations, legal contracts, tax issues, product development, customer complaints etc.

That's why you'll be very busy. You won't be an expert in all these things, they still need to be done, and you will spend lots of time figuring them out.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

These anti-job articles never provide concrete ideas on how these jobless people will cover their living expenses let alone access benefits like health insurance that can't easily be purchased on the open market. That's great if you're a trustafarian or can sponge off your spouse or whatever and useless otherwise.

Nearly everyone would love to swap their job for more leisure. The issue is not desire. The issue is logistics. The fact that no one (including, it would seem, Steve) has much to say about the logistics side makes me highly suspicious of this whole line of thinking.

You're over intellectualizing a shift that must come directly from your own heart. Becoming self employed has no step by step formula. Most jobs are designed in such a way that you don't have to think up your own way to give something to the world. The job is structured so you have tasks to complete, rewards for completing the tasks and it's all very neat and tidy requiring little if any imagination juice squeezed outta your melon.

There are no logistics to becoming your own boss. The options are literally limited only by your imagination. There are zero concrete steps beyond that. I can see how that might make many a person uncomfortable, especially if they do not truly know themselves or know what they like.

Figuring stuff out like filing self employment taxes, setting up a business or whether or not you even want to use money to support yourself (imagine that!) is all menial and incidental detail that is usually quite subjective.