Hurricane Irene - media scare or lack of infrastructure?

[aelle]

I hope I'm not being insensitive, but could US-based posters let me know what the whole fuss is about? Is it that the memories from Katrina are still so fresh and painful? Or are American infrastructures really that crappy that they can't withstand even a class 1 hurricane?

I mean, this summer alone I had a couple typhoons equivalent to a class 1 hurricane and one class 2, and all the prep I did was to take off my flower pots from my windowsill...

[Cado]

Originally Posted by aelle

I hope I'm not being insensitive, but could US-based posters let me know what the whole fuss is about? Is it that the memories from Katrina are still so fresh and painful? Or are American infrastructures really that crappy that they can't withstand even a class 1 hurricane?

I mean, this summer alone I had a couple typhoons equivalent to a class 1 hurricane and one class 2, and all the prep I did was to take off my flower pots from my windowsill...

Let me put it like this: a short time ago the onion released a video where terrorists said they wouldn't bomb our infrastructure because no one would believe they did it. That's not too far from the truth.

With that said, I've heard that Irene is the worst hurricane we've had since Katrina, I wasn't aware it was a class 1. If this thing got blown -way- out of proportion I'm gonna be pissed.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by aelle

I hope I'm not being insensitive, but could US-based posters let me know what the whole fuss is about? Is it that the memories from Katrina are still so fresh and painful? Or are American infrastructures really that crappy that they can't withstand even a class 1 hurricane?

I think the first point is spot-on, and also it wasn't expected to diminish to a class 1 by the time it hit North Carolina. But yeah, in general American infrastructure isn't built to withstand more severe hurricanes.

The hurricanes that hit Mississippi and Louisiana years back were particularly devastating, and I think there is some vigilance after the New Orleans flooding to make sure nothing is that bad ever again, with so many people staying behind and then drowning in the flood. People have apparently decided it's better to overreact than to underreact in these situations.

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by aelle

I hope I'm not being insensitive, but could US-based posters let me know what the whole fuss is about?

Your use of the word "fuss" to describe preparations for a disaster that has uprooted hundreds of thousands and killed several might be construed as insensitive.

Originally Posted by aelle

Is it that the memories from Katrina are still so fresh and painful?

Presumably.

Originally Posted by aelle

Or are American infrastructures really that crappy that they can't withstand even a class 1 hurricane?

Well, I read earlier today that the bridges in New York City aren't built to withstand winds stronger than 65 mph. (I think the last time NYC was directly hit by a hurricane was in like 1938.) I would assume that's true of a lot of other infrastructure in the affected areas, as well.

Originally Posted by aelle

I mean, this summer alone I had a couple typhoons equivalent to a class 1 hurricane and one class 2, and all the prep I did was to take off my flower pots from my windowsill...

That's good. Was this in Japan or Korea?

[russianrocket]

It's called the media, and the media just LOVES to blow things out of proportions.


Dramatic CNN news reporter Rob Marciano (tropical storm Irene) while people ar just walking by.. - YouTube

I wash my clothes in class 1's like Cali stirs their coffee in 5.9 earthquakes lol


I wouldn't doubt, that this is a way to give "climate change" a boost.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/us...=MYWAY&ei=5065

[aelle]

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

Your use of the word "fuss" to describe preparations for a disaster that has uprooted hundreds of thousands...

That's the thing, though: if it were anywhere else the barricading and panicky evacuations would look like self inflicted problems.

But this

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

Well, I read earlier today that the bridges in New York City aren't built to withstand winds stronger than 65 mph. (I think the last time NYC was directly hit by a hurricane was in like 1938.) I would assume that's true of a lot of other infrastructure in the affected areas, as well.

and the fact that an insane number of people are without power because of a little bit of wind is apalling. Infrastructure planning policies in the US don't make the slightest sense to me.

(To be honest, I had the same eyeroll reaction to the freaked out new of the virginia earthquake, before remembering that this area is built with really poor antiseismic standards because it's not compulsory -ah, small government- and because it's too expensive -ah, free market. It's just sad, really, when the world's economic and military superpower provides as much for its population as your average third world country.)

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

That's good. Was this in Japan or Korea?

I've had some of both, but this year was just Korea and one in Taiwan (that I actually flew out of, and then it was back on me in Korea a few days later).

[OptimistPrime]

I think it's really insensitive of you to talk about this after what I've just been through, but I realize that I'm just stressed out and thus more touchy than I usually am. So I'll just say that I'm glad you live someplace where you apparently don't have to go through this kind of stuff.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

I think it's really insensitive of you to talk about this after what I've just been through, but I realize that I'm just stressed out and thus more touchy than I usually am. So I'll just say that I'm glad you live someplace where you apparently don't have to go through this kind of stuff.

It's very sensitive of you to listen to people talk about it. Sensitivity is a two way street.

[aelle]

I'm sorry, I don't think I'm coming through properly. I do feel for the people who have suffered property damage or felt their life was in danger, all the more because in the 21st century in a developped country, such an event should not be a big deal.

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by aelle

I'm sorry, I don't think I'm coming through properly. I do feel for the people who have suffered property damage or felt their life was in danger, all the more because in the 21st century in a developped country, such an event should not be a big deal.

Okay, I've had some time to collect and center myself, and I'd like to apologize for losing my temper earlier. I was born and raised in this town, and I just saw houses, roads, land, and bridges that have been here since before I was born washed away in a matter of hours. This was the worst flooding I've ever experienced in my lifetime. In the abstract, I know that it's ultimately no big deal, and that I'm lucky that I and everyone I love is safe, and that I still have a house, and so on. But the experience of seeing things around me destroyed had an emotional impact on me.

Second of all, I don't even really disagree with you. I think that it would be great if Americans took disaster preparedness more seriously, and I wasn't being sarcastic when I said that I think it's great that you live in a country that has infrastructure and such that are designed with that in mind. But I don't live in that kind of a country, and I felt like a) you were gloating about how great your country is compared to mine, and b) you were saying that my experience was self-inflicted and that, basically, I deserved to go through what I just did because I'm an American. In retrospect, I'm almost positive you weren't doing that, but that was how I took it at the time.

Third, I was feeling upset about the fact that I started this thread as a place for people who were affected by the hurricane to come together and provide emotional support to one another, and I felt like you were derailing it into a debate about media and public policy in the United States. If I could do it over again, I would have just asked you to start another thread, or asked a mod to split it.

So, I'm sorry, aelle. I'm sure your criticisms were meant in a constructive spirit, even if I didn't receive them that way.

[cacheborn]

Hey guys,
I just split the thread as OptimistPrime suggested. Let me know if you can think of a better title.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by aelle

I hope I'm not being insensitive, but could US-based posters let me know what the whole fuss is about? Is it that the memories from Katrina are still so fresh and painful? Or are American infrastructures really that crappy that they can't withstand even a class 1 hurricane?

I mean, this summer alone I had a couple typhoons equivalent to a class 1 hurricane and one class 2, and all the prep I did was to take off my flower pots from my windowsill...

I agree with you that there was too much fuss made over this silly storm. There was all day news coverage on all the basic channels. I didn't even feel the storm and it didn't knock out my power. It was ridiculously overblown.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by aelle

I'm sorry, I don't think I'm coming through properly. I do feel for the people who have suffered property damage or felt their life was in danger, all the more because in the 21st century in a developped country, such an event should not be a big deal.

It wasn't much of a hurricane, but it was in an area that almost never sees hurricanes, so it doesn't make economic sense to over-prep for them. Evacuate-n-cleanup is cheaper twice a century. If this same hurricane hit Miami it would have been a much smaller deal.

As an aside I fail to see how "infrastructure" is going to keep power on in rural areas when there's a big storm. Trees are going to fall on power lines, and someone's going to have to fix it. You're not going to bury millions of miles of power lines just on the off chance there might be a hurricane.

[SatvikBeri]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

As an aside I fail to see how "infrastructure" is going to keep power on in rural areas when there's a big storm. Trees are going to fall on power lines, and someone's going to have to fix it. You're not going to bury millions of miles of power lines just on the off chance there might be a hurricane.

Part of the disconnect probably comes from the fact that the "rural areas" that exist in the USA don't really exist in most other countries. The population density of the USA is 32 people/km^2, the population density in South Korea is 487/km^2- more than 15 times as much. France is even higher.

When you have such a low population density, the same level of infrastructure is simply impossible-you're getting a much lower return on your investment for infrastructure over the same area.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by SatvikBeri

Part of the disconnect probably comes from the fact that the "rural areas" that exist in the USA don't really exist in most other countries. The population density of the USA is 32 people/km^2, the population density in South Korea is 487/km^2- more than 15 times as much. France is even higher.

When you have such a low population density, the same level of infrastructure is simply impossible-you're getting a much lower return on your investment for infrastructure over the same area.

This is a good point - I find that Europeans and Asians frequently fail to grasp the effect that geography has on US policies. I also think there's a cultural difference especially when the US is compared to Asia. If the power goes out in the US due to a storm, I don't see it as some sort of government failure. It's just a storm. They'll fix it. Places that 100% have to have power have generators. I get the feeling that many Asians see that sort of event as some sort of condemnation of government competence, and thus Asian governments grossly over-spend to try to prevent disruptions of service.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

This is a good point - I find that Europeans and Asians frequently fail to grasp the effect that geography has on US policies. I also think there's a cultural difference especially when the US is compared to Asia. If the power goes out in the US due to a storm, I don't see it as some sort of government failure. It's just a storm. They'll fix it. Places that 100% have to have power have generators. I get the feeling that many Asians see that sort of event as some sort of condemnation of government competence, and thus Asian governments grossly over-spend to try to prevent disruptions of service.

Yet everyone here wants the government to grossly over spend to try to prevent the same. How did it work in the old days before government did everything? If people want to live in small towns, in older homes, with less infrastructure, then that's their choice, is it not? I live in a highly populated area, and our infrastructure is top notch. People like to compare the other countries to the US, when it comes to jobs, government, health and education. Yet they forget just how big the US is, and how spread out everything is, and how many different states there are that do everything differently.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by SatvikBeri

Part of the disconnect probably comes from the fact that the "rural areas" that exist in the USA don't really exist in most other countries. The population density of the USA is 32 people/km^2, the population density in South Korea is 487/km^2- more than 15 times as much. France is even higher.

When you have such a low population density, the same level of infrastructure is simply impossible-you're getting a much lower return on your investment for infrastructure over the same area.

That's a good point.
But in this particular case, the region hit is one of the oldest and most urbanised of the US. I calculated that the average population density in the affected States (from North Carolina to Maine) is 100/km2, and that's including upstate New York which is generous. That's comparable to France's 116/km2 (France is the most rural country of Western Europe, and second least densely populated of Europe after Ukraine).

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

This is a good point - I find that Europeans and Asians frequently fail to grasp the effect that geography has on US policies.

I thought this was where the federal system came as an advantage? It would make perfect sense for Massachusetts to have a different infrastructure policy than, I don't know, Nevada or Wyoming. But then it doesn't make sense to say that the geography of the US as a whole is responsible for infrastructure differences between a particular state or region and a comparable country.

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

I also think there's a cultural difference especially when the US is compared to Asia. If the power goes out in the US due to a storm, I don't see it as some sort of government failure. It's just a storm. They'll fix it. Places that 100% have to have power have generators. I get the feeling that many Asians see that sort of event as some sort of condemnation of government competence, and thus Asian governments grossly over-spend to try to prevent disruptions of service.

I'm not sure about Asia (it's hard to generalize about Asia, even East Asia, because of the drastic differences of economical developments among countries and even regions), but it's definitely a cultural difference between the US and France. We have what we call "public services" (not meaning that they are nationalized, although some of them are, but that they are for the public good) including eletricity, drinking water, heating gas, phone lines, hospitals etc. and we do expect them to be running without a glitch barring truly exceptional events - and the weather generally doesn't count.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by aelle

That's a good point.
But in this particular case, the region hit is one of the oldest and most urbanised of the US. I calculated that the average population density in the affected States (from North Carolina to Maine) is 100/km2, and that's including upstate New York which is generous. That's comparable to France's 116/km2 (France is the most rural country of Western Europe, and second least densely populated of Europe after Ukraine).

Does France bury all their transmission and distribution lines across the whole country as a hedge against storms? Maybe in Paris, but I doubt in the rest of the country.