London Riots

[WarrenG]

If you haven't heard yet, we've been having a series of riots the past couple of days here in London. It's pretty bad. There's serious rioting and arson going on. It started in the poorer areas, but it's spreading quite quickly. It's even spread to another city, Birmingham, the second largest city in the UK behind London, with as-yet unconfirmed reports of violence in other major cities.

It seems to have started over a protest about a guy who was shot by police. That protest turned violent and then riots sprung up all over the city.

This map shows where confirmed reports of violence have taken place in the capital, as you can see it's pretty rampant:

London riots / UK riots: verified areas - Google Maps

This is not real-time either, so there's actually more going on than shown on that map. There's actually been a confirmed report of looting about a mile from my house. There's a lot of noise from sirens right now, though luckily no sign of it in my immediate vicinity.

There's also picture and live updates here:

BBC News - London riots
London riots: the third night – live coverage | UK news | guardian.co.uk

I don't think it's a coincidence that this is taking place when we're in a recession, experiencing high unemployment, low social mobility, while simultaneously experiencing cuts that Maggie Thatcher would be impressed by, including including social services and welfare. Most of the looters are younger guys, the angry and frustrated generation that no one cares about, people who our politicians - who have only ever known other rich people - cannot possibly empathise with.

I imagine we'll be seeing more of this type of thing as our situation worsens, which it looks likely to do.

Anyway, hope all the Londoners here are safe and well!

[Michael Chui]

Not to be insensitive, but I get serious "V for Vendetta" flashbacks every time I hear about this.

[WarrenG]

I haven't seen/read it.

[supertom]

Its getting worse, police can't cope, Send in the military.

[aelle]

I find it interesting that when a similar thing happened in France a few years ago (riots in poor neighborhoods after youths were killed fleeing the police) the entire planet's media made it into a race/islam issue. It was obvious to me then that it was a class issue, and I think your analysis is right, WarrenG. The return to hard right, authoritarian governments in Western Europe is good news for no one.

[WarrenG]

Weirdly prophetic Smiths song...

‪The Smiths - Panic (HQ)‬‏ - YouTube

aelle,

Yeah, though at least the French typically riot in protest to something... this seems to be reactionary, with gangs in different areas trying to out-do each other. Still, it says something about out society.

What you won't see is this government asking the hard questions about why this is happening. The press is already coming down hard over the police response (or lack thereof), so the gov will need to take a hard line, they will say they are criminals who must be punished and that will be that.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

I haven't seen/read it.

There's a montage scene about 70-80% of the way through where the speaker discusses "future" events and describes the basis for riots breaking out when a policeman (kinda) shoots a teenager in the back. It takes place in the UK, in the future, when the US has been reduced to a "leper colony".

[James Fletcher]

This is definitely a symptom of a generational conflict that is becoming a real problem.

Thing is, baby boomers are regarded far more highly than pretty much any other age group, simply because there are more of them. Politicians, the media, law enforcement, all pander to the 50-65 (thereabouts) age group.

Boomers complain that young people are lazy and disrespectful, and they quite often go on to tell vivid tales of how life was much harder "back in their day", because they didn't have internet or cellphones etc. But don't buy a word of it, because what they did have was a far greater sense of certainty. Jobs were abundant, wages were decent, university was cheap or in some cases free, some technologies were still expensive but petrol was dirt cheap. The world was their oyster.

Wealth in itself is not so much a problem, it's who possesses it that is. The boomers reaped in the good times, and rather than throw a bean or two to future generations, they'd rather take it to the grave.

Today's youth have been given a terrible rap, which has resulted in life imitating exaggerated stereotypes and hence the London riots.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by James Fletcher

This is definitely a symptom of a generational conflict that is becoming a real problem.

Thing is, baby boomers are regarded far more highly than pretty much any other age group, simply because there are more of them. Politicians, the media, law enforcement, all pander to the 50-65 (thereabouts) age group.

Boomers complain that young people are lazy and disrespectful, and they quite often go on to tell vivid tales of how life was much harder "back in their day", because they didn't have internet or cellphones etc. But don't buy a word of it, because what they did have was a far greater sense of certainty. Jobs were abundant, wages were decent, university was cheap or in some cases free, some technologies were still expensive but petrol was dirt cheap. The world was their oyster.

Wealth in itself is not so much a problem, it's who possesses it that is. The boomers reaped in the good times, and rather than throw a bean or two to future generations, they'd rather take it to the grave.

Today's youth have been given a terrible rap, which has resulted in life imitating exaggerated stereotypes and hence the London riots.

Yeah, this.

I know that when I was a teen there was this distinct attitude where the baby boomers blamed us for the way society was, when it was actually their participation in the industrial revolution that created the challenges we all face now. Essentially they ****ed it up and then blamed us for it.

I did meet one old codger who apologized on behalf of his generation to me though, which was pretty cool.

I can only imagine what it's like for young people in britain these days, or anywhere really. I felt pretty alienated as a teen and young person, I remember that much. Copping dirty looks from the older generation without so much as an attempt at empathizing with what young people face these days.

[supertom]

"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
Plato, 4th Century BC

[WarrenG]

Check the map again today:

London riots / UK riots: verified areas - Google Maps

[Peterw]

This is aweful. From what I've seen this isn't really about anything now except mass scale violence and theft. They aren't protesting against anything it's just chavs on the rampage looting mobile phone/electronic/clothes shops. They're setting fire to buildings that peole live in

It's a really hard situation because the spending cuts are keeping us out of the situation we're seeing in Europe and America.

[NSS]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Yeah, this.

I know that when I was a teen there was this distinct attitude where the baby boomers blamed us for the way society was, when it was actually their participation in the industrial revolution that created the challenges we all face now. Essentially they ****ed it up and then blamed us for it.

I did meet one old codger who apologized on behalf of his generation to me though, which was pretty cool.

I can only imagine what it's like for young people in britain these days, or anywhere really. I felt pretty alienated as a teen and young person, I remember that much. Copping dirty looks from the older generation without so much as an attempt at empathizing with what young people face these days.

How about these ******** start taking some responsibility for their lives instead of blaming other people. But no, that's too hard. Let's loot and burn instead. FIGHT THE POWER!!

There comes a point where the police have to say enough is enough and start using force to stop **** like this. This is getting ridiculous.

[Oceans]

Remember it's only a small minority doing this...as always.

‪Clapham Junction looting‬‏ - YouTube

I wish all residents and shop owners the best. Stay strong

[Clint Cora]

More fine examples of low emotional intelligence. These young punks think they are trying to prove something. Well, let's see what type of future they are looking at when they have a criminal record on their heads. I bet they were not even thinking about that possibility when they were throwing that Molatov cocktail or smashing those windows.

Wonder how many of them were dumb enough to pose for photos and video like the idiots who were at the Vancouver riots earlier this year.

[Peterw]

Looks like they are rioting already and there are 16000 more police out with plastic bullets....

[Bliss Sage]

I don't get what this rioting is about...
The guy in this interview helped me get a vague idea of what is behind the rioting, but I have trouble understanding him:

‪London Riots. (The BBC will never replay this. Send it out)‬‏ - YouTube

Other video of rioting:

‪Fresh video of London riots: Crowd street rampage‬‏ - YouTube

[garentee]

This kind of rioting etc will become more commonplace the longer the present day robber barons are allowed to pillage money from everybody else...It is not that there is no reason for this riot , its that there are a LOT of reasons for it...Rioting does not solve anything but to draw attention to some situation that needs to have attention paid to it. Most often it is over Money or food...The question I have is are these people supposed to sit idley by while the powers that be take away rights and abuse power and steal money from the public? This may be the only recourse these people have... I personally am uninterested in riots etc, but I can see how something like this might happen...

[Haupi]

Historically this is what happens when people are economically oppressed for long periods of time and see no way out. All it takes is for some random incident to happen that gets the attention of the people and things start to take a life of its own. People start rioting, looting and burning down their own property and area, the cops get called in and all hell breaks loose. Get ready folks because this type of thing has a way of spreading.

[Lionman]

I live in an affluent town in Surrey, and all shops have shut early and the streets are empty. I swear if they come here and try to burn down my lovely riverside appartment then I'm going to defend it from my roof terrace with some kind of projectiles. The police haven't been able to do enough so far in the other areas because they're so overstretched.

[Haupi]

I just heard they may be calling out the army to help get things under control. The area where that old historic furniture store was destroyed looks like a bomb hit it!? I don't see how throwing stuff off your roof is going to prevent anything at this point, but I wish you luck my friend. Stay safe and keep us posted on what's happening there.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

I don't get what this rioting is about...
The guy in this interview helped me get a vague idea of what is behind the rioting, but I have trouble understanding him:

‪London Riots. (The BBC will never replay this. Send it out)‬‏ - YouTube

Haha, he's excellent!! He said this isn't a riot, it's an insurrection. Basically that people are pissed off with society and showing it. Then later at the end she says he's no stranger to rioting, and he tells her off!! He says he's been involved in demonstrations and got caught up in conflict and that she should have some respect.

Uuh, I just wrote a big long reply about why I think this is going on, but I can't be arsed right now. To state my position though, I basically agree with garantee and Haupi - there's larger systemic problems behind this, not only in terms of oppression, demonisation and persecution of certain groups of society, but also in terms of our meaningless materialistic lifestyle more generally. But what will dominate the press and political response will be the "Personal responsibility" angle - these are a bunch of yobs and bad people lashing out, and I think this reaction will prevent important questions from being asked.

For now I'll stick to some interetsing things I've read about their tactics. This was not purely a case of gangs in each area rising up when they heard about things happening elsewhere, which I originally assumed (though that was surely part of it).

They were organised and smart, this was more of a guerilla hit and run assault on London. They'd, attack, loot, then back off quickly when police showed up in numbers. Smaller numbers of police would be confronted and pushed back for a time. When more police arrived, they'd disperse quickly, many on bikes and mopeds, in different directions. They'd then use SMS, blackberry, and even radio to arrange meet ups at different locations. These locations would have been previously highlighted as a safe place to attack with no police presence by other people.

[WarrenG]

Also this is quite cool - Millwall fans (probably the most violent football fans) come out to protect the streets!

Millwall fans protecting Eltham Highstreet, you might hate th... on Twitpic

[supertom]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Also this is quite cool - Millwall fans (probably the most violent football fans) come out to protect the streets!

Millwall fans protecting Eltham Highstreet, you might hate th... on Twitpic

The idea of millwall fans doing something good. Fairplay to them anyway. I don't think those mobs would be heading to Islington either.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Also this is quite cool - Millwall fans (probably the most violent football fans) come out to protect the streets!

Millwall fans protecting Eltham Highstreet, you might hate th... on Twitpic

Image didn't work for me. =/

[SnerpGoodWord]

Britain is simply reaping the rewards for creating a welfare class. If the youth in question been forced to relocate to find work (alternative: starve) 10 years ago, we wouldn't be having this thread. Instead they were put on the public dole, and now have nothing better to do with their time than burn things. The same thing occasionally happens in the US, but we're generally better at putting the riots down and our more restrictive welfare policies make it harder for a critical mass to gather.

[Orecle]

I have actually met the guy whose murder kicked all this off

Last thursday, a drug dealer by the name of Mark dug gin was shot and killed by policemen after returning back to his home in a minicab. His cab was stopped by an unmarked police car a few meters by his home an altercation ensued resulting in the police shooting him. The shootin made the news with the following headline 'drug dealer shot dead by police, policeman injured'. This was the Friday morning headline. He was a father of 4. 3 with his current girlfriend who only got to learn about it from the media. His family attempted to get info about the shooting from the local police station, but were given the run around

As an addition - I met this guy a years ago in the gym around the corner from where he got shot so I know quite a few people who know him properly and were his neighbours. Rumours were circulating on Friday that the police shot him unarmed. the strange thing about the case was ipcc (the independent police complaints commission - police who police the police) turned up hrs after the shooting. This is strange because they only turn up when the police have really cocked up and this is usually after wks not hours

Anyway, Saturday afternoon his family organised a peaceful protest to the police station to demand to see the head of the station. For a couple hours no one came out, upon which the front desk sergeant came out. The peaceful demonstrators (mostly adults at this time) requested someone senior. The police did not respond after this. The demonstrators informed the police that they would not leave till seen, but please can they come out soon as it is getting dark.

The police ignored them

Soon the local youths started turning up in numbers. The mature adults started leaving while the youths stayed.

The actual start of the riots.
What actually started the riots (this is on film) is a local 16 yr old girl started shouting at 6 standing riot police who then kicked her to the ground and started beating her with batons and kicking her on the floor. 6 men beating 1 girl. The press reported that she threw rocks first, which there is no evidence for. 6 men beating one girl who is on the floor is cowardly.*

Then the crowd kicked off


The rioting and looting
This is when the youth showed their stupidity and maturity. They attacked the police, then started looting and pillaging. What has dragged it on is they then went 2 steal well over 30 widescreen tvs, 100s of brand new mobiles, over 30 - 50 laptops, mp3- complete emptied out a well known sports shop of thousands of stock. then they burnt out over 10 shops and over 50 apartments in total.

They Repeated this in a bigger shopping outlet this time including a health store, designer store and opticians a few jewellery store. ALL IN ONE NITE.

It took the police 10 - 15 hrs to show up to any of the scenes of crime

Upon seeing how successful the looters were, youths from around the country have marvelled t the amount stolen. Following nite youths from 10 different areas decided to repeat the exercise the next nite and succeeded

Upon seeing the success of that, youths from 15 more areas tried it the following nite. This riot is not a riot. It is pure looting. The kids have acquired more goods than they could have dreamed with a simple technique. Instead of robbing shops in 3-4s, go with 50 - 200 instead. The police will be to scared to confront you.

Update on the shooting
The ipcc have found that the drug dealer did not shot at the police. The injured cop was not shot, it was his radio that was hit. The final shocker is the bullet lodged in the police radio was fired from a police gun. The drug dealer had not fired like the press had claimed

This is about the fourth time the uk police have shot an unarmed man.*

The reason the police are being passive is the uk condemned and bombed gaddafi for being heavy handed with libyans. How would it look if the British police are seen on film beating citizens?

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

.
For now I'll stick to some interetsing things I've read about their tactics. This was not purely a case of gangs in each area rising up when they heard about things happening elsewhere, which I originally assumed (though that was surely part of it).

They were organised and smart, this was more of a guerilla hit and run assault on London. They'd, attack, loot, then back off quickly when police showed up in numbers. Smaller numbers of police would be confronted and pushed back for a time. When more police arrived, they'd disperse quickly, many on bikes and mopeds, in different directions. They'd then use SMS, blackberry, and even radio to arrange meet ups at different locations. These locations would have been previously highlighted as a safe place to attack with no police presence by other people.

Actualy this is entirely about loot. How do I know? Cos I live in the area. I was right in the middle of the second nights looting as it passed my road. They broke into my 2 local supermarket, Argos, crispy kreme and mcdonalds and halfords. The first day was born out of frustration but was fuelled by the desire to loot and profit from the loot. You will not believe how much stuff has been looted. For all you uk peeps . The totenham retail park orange, tmobile and carphone warehouse have been complete emptied of stock. The jd sports was emptied of a vast amount of stock. This then repeated in wood green

[bluestar]

The problem is they have found that the most unspeakable acts of violence and criminal damage CAN be done....if there are enough of them, and they keep at it! They are feeling "Wow! We can actually do this, and get away with it!"
(Apparently, so I heard, the main perpetrators of the violence are aged approx. 14-20)
So they are all obeying a mass hysteric and herd dynamic now. And guess what? WOW! Criminals and stupid youths all over the country are listening and getting into the same stuff! They are all jumping on the bandwagon, and they think that's really cool....
Total idiots.
They might be wearing hoods, but oh boy -someone will recognise them....and they are being caught on CCTV all over the place. I know for a fact, if I knew someone particularly well, I would def. recognise them even if wearing a hood!

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by bluestar

They might be wearing hoods, but oh boy -someone will recognise them....and they are being caught on CCTV all over the place. I know for a fact, if I knew someone particularly well, I would def. recognise them even if wearing a hood!

Yep, there's a big response from the public and on social media... 685 arrests so far in London alone.