Antinatalism

[CroMagna]

Antinatalism is the view that conceiving a child is immoral because of the suffering and eventual death that the child will endure.

There are numerous antinatalist websites including Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo.

Here Sister Y argues that giving birth is like offering someone ecstacy because it's awesome.

Both of these goals - acting to minimize the risk of death to a stranger, and acting to minimize his risk of harm - are laudable and widely shared. But there's a glaring aspect of the utilitarian calculus that almost no one seriously considers in making the decision to administer a peanut or some ecstasy. This is the differential positive utility to be gained by the stranger in each case. A peanut is marginally sustaining, but unless it's been boiled with star anise and Sichuan peppercorns, it's not particularly enjoyable. Ecstasy, on the other hand, is fking awesome. Why doesn't anybody consider the relative benefit to the stranger along with the relative harm?[3]

The View from Hell: Inflicting Harm and Inflicting Pleasure on Strangers

[CroMagna]

Sister Y offers another analogy in The Rape Doctor.

Dr. A is a research psychologist who also has a private clinical practice. He specializes in treating Female Sexual Arousal Disorder . Female Sexual Arousal Disorder consists of a persistent or recurrent inability to attain, or to maintain until completion of the sexual activity, an adequate lubrication-swelling response of sexual excitement.

Dr. A has identified a syndrome (a cluster of symptoms) common to a subgroup of his FSAD patients with a particularly severe version of FSAD. Members of this subgroup, he believes, are unable to achieve sexual arousal except in cases of forced sexual contact. A highly statistically significant number of patients who meet Criteria A, B, C, and D who have been raped report the rape as their only enjoyable sexual experience, compared to rape victims who do not meet the criteria. It is statistically reasonable for him to believe that, out of 1000 patients with FSCAS who have not been raped, 999 will experience a great deal of sexual enjoyment and a much better quality of life if raped; one will experience the usual extreme distress that rape would cause a normal woman.

You can probably guess where I'm going with this. Should Dr. A rape his FSCAS patients?

I think it's hard to answer anything but CHRIST, NO! to this one.

The View from Hell: The Rape Doctor Hypothetical

[Mariana Trench]

Do you wish you were never born? I doubt most people do.

[CroMagna]

Sometimes I do sometimes I don't. It's similar to the drug analogy. Do I wish I didn't do drugs (hypothetically). Sometimes I do because of the harm and eventual death and sometimes I don't because of the pleasure.

So would you give drugs to a stranger without his consent?

Also by having children, you risk giving birth to someone who always wishes s/he were never born or who is suicidal.

Plus it's a psychological fact, according to antinatalist philosopher and University of Cape Town professor David Benetar, that people see their lives as being better than they actually are. Sister Y also says that language is built to be euphemistic, for example the word "rape" is a euphemism that doesn't encapsulate the actual horror of the situation.

[CroMagna]

Antinatalist Jim Crawford, on life:

"For a more realistic take on things, let's posit a roller coaster built by an imbecile who never really had entertainment in mind, with rusty tracks and safety bars, where the wheels have the nasty habit of falling off unexpectedly, and a sizable portion of the riders die from heart attacks and brain aneurysms. A ride that people don't actually choose to go on, but rather find themselves inexplicably strapped into after waking from their naps, who soon realize that, even if they survive the shoddy manufacturing defects for a time, they're eventually going to crash headfirst into that brick wall that some idiot built at the end of the track. A thrill o' minute, indeed!"

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Antinatalism is the view that conceiving a child is immoral because of the suffering and eventual death that the child will endure.

Does the converse exist?

"Pronatalism is the view that not conceiving a child is immoral because of the joy and life that the child would otherwise experience".

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Do you wish you were never born? I doubt most people do.

I have. I still do, sometimes, and not from depression or any other such thing, but just because living has always seemed to me to be a lot of work and difficulty and while the potential for joy is high, I've never been convinced that the joy outweighs the crap, if you know what I mean. Seems to me to be a lot of effort for not much return.

That being said, I'm not suicidal or anything. I keep trying to get over myself enough to make it all worth it.

As for the circumstances of my conception, they were pretty bleak. Two young, dumb, dysfunctional people in the back seat of a car and then they "have to get married" because of the child they rather stupidly managed to conceive. Not the best situation into which to be born, I must say, as it could be said to be immoral, given the circumstances (I don't mean the illicit sex or the back seat of the car, but their own inability to act like responsible grownups and being forced into marriage by social conventions of the day).

[Cado]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Also by having children, you risk giving birth to someone who always wishes s/he were never born or who is suicidal.

That's not going to happen unless they have really bad parents.

My body doesn't move without my consent. If I wanted out, indeed if I never wanted in, my will alone would be enough to end my life. The same is true for all of us. Emotions can kill, you know. We're all capable of feeding the emotions that shape our experience, even kids. The very notion that life is something we don't want is something that rarely crosses our minds until we're much older and bitter to the point that we won't let go of something.

That's the aberration, not life.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Cado

The very notion that life is something we don't want is something that rarely crosses our minds until we're much older and bitter to the point that we won't let go of something.

I don't know about that. I was quite young the first time I sincerely wished that I had never been born at all.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Cado

That's not going to happen unless they have really bad parents.

How do you know that? Do you have any evidence of this?

Originally Posted by Cado

If I wanted out, indeed if I never wanted in, my will alone would be enough to end my life.

Au contraire. Committing suicide is extremely unnatural and difficult. The most effective means is by firearms which is nearly impossible to "will" the body to do to itself. Barbituates are effective but are illegal and hard to find, even on the black market.

And what do you mean "indeed if I never wanted in?" We have no choice in the matter.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Does the converse exist?

"Pronatalism is the view that not conceiving a child is immoral because of the joy and life that the child would otherwise experience".

No the converse does not exist. The amount of joy the child will experience is irrelevant because of the harm. You can compare it to taking up smoking.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Barbituates are effective but are illegal and hard to find, even on the black market.

There's also a problem with the body naturally rejecting any drug you take in quantity, i.e., you throw up. There are medical means to get around that, but it's difficult to get the necessary medication to suppress the vomiting.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by CaterpillarWoman

There's also a problem with the body naturally rejecting any drug you take in quantity, i.e., you throw up. There are medical means to get around that, but it's difficult to get the necessary medication to suppress the vomiting.

This is why although women attempt suicide twice as much as men, men follow through more then women. Men are more violent and therefore more likely to use guns. Women will use pills which will fail.

The common explanation circulated for this difference is that when women attempt suicide, they are merely trying to communicate. I think there's a conspiracy to cover up the fact that women actually are in fact more suicidal than men.

[ZephyrusX]

Also by having children, you risk giving birth to someone who always wishes s/he were never born or who is suicidal

Originally Posted by Cado

That's not going to happen unless they have really bad parents.

I don't agree that parents of suicidal children are 'bad parents'. In some cases, that could be the case. But I think parents of suicidal children have it bad enough with their child being dead. I don't think they need us to reinforce the idea that they are 'bad' parents' (they are probably thinking the same thing). There are so many social and biological factors that influence the mindset of a suicidal person, and although we would like to think that 'good parents' are always able to connect with their kids, its not true, especially when the child withdrawals all honest communication. I mean, if you were raped and you chose to hide the pain and the self-guilt and shame, how will your parents know otherwise? They may see that you are distraught and depressed, but most parents will never guess as to what the causes of your moods are unless you are brave and open enough to tell them.

[CroMagna]

"Life is not a bed of roses. Suffering is a part and parcel of everyone’s life. Some have more of it, some less, but everyone goes through it. To battle with innumerable terrifying problems of different types is part of man’s life and he cannot escape from them. He will be thrown in the midst of baffling trials, may have to face natural calamities, and undergo punishment for his ‘past’ misdeeds. From the very moment a person takes birth, suffering is his constant companion. Everyone has diseases and illnesses in life. Everyone goes through emotional suffering. And life is a constant struggle. People have to start their struggle right from childhood, from their school days. Then college, if they reach that far. Then finding a job; then a life partner; facing the loss of near and dear ones. And all the while we are enslaved by the body and its demands, be it hunger, sleep, sex, etc. Everyone has to work in order to maintain his body. Even breathing is work. Our body’s metabolism is constantly at work. We have to supply it with food so that it can keep on working. And we have to work so that we can obtain that food. But if our soul is not bound in a mortal body, it will be totally immune to all pain and suffering."

Dont Conceive

[Cado]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

How do you know that? Do you have any evidence of this?

Well, the people I've met who wanted to hang themselves never got on with their mums and dads so it's likely there's a correlation.

Au contraire. Committing suicide is extremely unnatural and difficult. The most effective means is by firearms which is nearly impossible to "will" the body to do to itself. Barbituates are effective but are illegal and hard to find, even on the black market.

That's not at all what I'm talking about. Emotion is enough to destroy the body if somebody really doesn't want to be alive anymore. For most people it takes a long time, sure, but it's easy to shave a few decades off your life. Imagine what somebody could do if they were committed.

Guns and other methods are even easier. Find a tall place on a windy day and the rest practically takes care of itself.

And what do you mean "indeed if I never wanted in?" We have no choice in the matter.

Yes we do. Nothing is keeping us here. We may or may not get to work out a sort of contract like Erin talks about but once we're cognizant it's wholly up to us what we do.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

"Life is not a bed of roses. Suffering is a part and parcel of everyone’s life. Some have more of it, some less, but everyone goes through it. To battle with innumerable terrifying problems of different types is part of man’s life and he cannot escape from them. He will be thrown in the midst of baffling trials, may have to face natural calamities, and undergo punishment for his ‘past’ misdeeds. From the very moment a person takes birth, suffering is his constant companion. Everyone has diseases and illnesses in life. Everyone goes through emotional suffering. And life is a constant struggle. People have to start their struggle right from childhood, from their school days. Then college, if they reach that far. Then finding a job; then a life partner; facing the loss of near and dear ones. And all the while we are enslaved by the body and its demands, be it hunger, sleep, sex, etc. Everyone has to work in order to maintain his body. Even breathing is work. Our body’s metabolism is constantly at work. We have to supply it with food so that it can keep on working. And we have to work so that we can obtain that food. But if our soul is not bound in a mortal body, it will be totally immune to all pain and suffering."

Dont Conceive

Well. She sounds like an absolute riot. Remind me not to invite her to any parties.

Most problems in life can be solved with a change in perspective and this is a downright cruddy worldview to have. People have every right to it but given how it feels just to look at it I've got to question the mental health of anyone who would choose it.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Cado

Guns and other methods are even easier. Find a tall place on a windy day and the rest practically takes care of itself.

It's not that easy jusy to jump off a bridge. Plus you have to think about your loved ones.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Cado

Well. She sounds like an absolute riot. Remind me not to invite her to any parties.

Most problems in life can be solved with a change in perspective and this is a downright cruddy worldview to have. People have every right to it but given how it feels just to look at it I've got to question the mental health of anyone who would choose it.

How do you know that? Can AIDS be cured with a change in perspective?

It's not cruddy. It's true.

Having children is exactly like giving cigarettes to someone who doesn't smoke--without their consent. Sure there are positives but that's irrelevant because of the harm eventual death involved.

[elucidate]

In my twenties, after having been through all sorts of nightmarish experiences, and being as sensitive as I am, I found it very difficult to be in this world and not of it. At one point I wanted to have kids and was working pretty hard to work through my issues so I wouldn't impose them on my children, when the time came.

I have to say though, that at certain times, it felt so overwhelmingly hard to be here that I felt it would be the more caring thing to not bring children into this world, with all the plasticity and grotty energy, mean people and just all the crazy **** that's been going down. Not to mention the over-population issue at hand. There are already too many babies IMO.

I was in a deeply depressed state though, and had times when I wished I hadn't been born...it felt so hopeless and I'd lost my spark, which is sad. In that state it's understandable that I would not want to bring children here, though, if I consider that maybe they will not be born as sensitive as I was, as I don't seem to have the same filters that most people do, so noise really bugs me, and my senses are quite acute to smells and my empathy has been all over the place at times.

I think that with every generation born, children are much more perceptive and able to develop coping mechanisms to be able to survive in this ever changing and complex world of technology...so maybe they would cope better than I would?

I don't know? I didn't realize there was a whole movement on this subject, and I have to say, as much as I can relate to some of the posters here, the person you quoted does sound like she needs to lighten up a bit.

Sure it's hard, and for some it's much harder than others. I cannot even conceive how hard it must be for someone with severe disablities who is bound to a bed for their whole lives and has to have someone wipe their ass for them 3 times a day. Putting it in perspective makes the load much lighter.

I'll quote Buffy "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it...be brave...live."

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

How do you know that? Can AIDS be cured with a change in perspective?

It's not cruddy. It's true.

Having children is exactly like giving cigarettes to someone who doesn't smoke--without their consent. Sure there are positives but that's irrelevant because of the harm eventual death involved.

What do you mean, "the harm eventual death involved" though?

Are you saying you think that death is harmful?

Death is death. It's part of life, and I think if we didn't view it in such a negative light it would probably be a lot better. I like Stuart Wilde's notion that "Life was never meant to be a struggle" and i think it holds some validity. It's all in the way we choose to view things. I personally don't find the act of breathing too much of a chore though.

And yeah, I've never had any real issues with being overweight, though I have had trouble putting ON weight...but that has never been a burden for me, so I have trouble understanding that, though I can empathize with people who have struggled with their weight.

We don't know how we are gonna die, and chances are it may be painful, and yeah, there's a lot of suffering in life. Sometimes I have felt that it outweighed the pluses, but when you are enjoying your life it is hard to understand this perspective.

Many people just power on and don't pay any attention to the pain, or seem to cope with it well, distracting themselves in various ways to avoid feeling it...it's what drives addictions of all kinds.

I have had trouble in this area, and have often wondered how they do it? I have trouble not showing what I'm feeling, and that can really scare people off especially if it is emotional pain because it is something they don't want to be reminded of in themselves.

[CroMagna]

I meant the harm *and* eventual death involved.

Even if you're enjoying life, you can still see the logic in this.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

How do you know that? Can AIDS be cured with a change in perspective?

It's not cruddy. It's true.

Having children is exactly like giving cigarettes to someone who doesn't smoke--without their consent. Sure there are positives but that's irrelevant because of the harm eventual death involved.

You can't speak meaningfully of having the will to consent unless the person in question is... well... alive and sentinent. So it doesn't make sense to me to say that you gave birth to a child against their consent.

[ZephyrusX]

I haven't read the sites, to be honest, so I'm just going on what you posted here. Not having children because you recognize that the world has pain and death in it seems like a powerless thing to do. It is like a child who doesn't like the criticism he/she receives from friends, and so, makes the drastic choice to push them out of his/her life entirely. In doing so, he destroys the potential for something more positive.

I'd prefer to believe in the potential for something better and to believe in my agency and the agency of others in making the best out of that potential.

Originally Posted by CroMagna

I meant the harm *and* eventual death involved.

Even if you're enjoying life, you can still see the logic in this.

[MariconesUnited]

What a bleak thread. I have to admit I'm kind of having a rough day. But at least I don't hold the views the OP is quoting here. So yeah...putting things in perspective can make you feel better!

[ZephyrusX]

I think it is safe to say that the parents are projecting their own visions of the world onto their imaginary, future children. It doesn't really have anything to do with the imaginary children at all.

And I can't help but think of this thread in the context of the parenting thread. I find it peculiar that a group of people would deny their imaginary future children the human experience in order to protect them from pain and death, and in doing so, strip those imaginary children of their integrity and personhood. The underlying implication is that children are not strong and creative enough to weave the positive and negatives of human life in a meaningful way. I chose meaningful as opposed to 'happy' or 'loving' as I don't think you necessarily need to feel those qualities all the time in order to have a meaningful life. But I'm sure children are just as capable of finding happiness and love as well. Also, the underlying implication is that 'adults know best', and therefore, they must make decisions on behalf of imaginary, future children.

This isn't love; this is just adults chosing to indulge in their own powerless perspectives of the world and imposing that world view onto potential others. This is control on behalf of the self.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I haven't read the sites, to be honest, so I'm just going on what you posted here. Not having children because you recognize that the world has pain and death in it seems like a powerless thing to do. It is like a child who doesn't like the criticism he/she receives from friends, and so, makes the drastic choice to push them out of his/her life entirely. In doing so, he destroys the potential for something more positive.

I'd prefer to believe in the potential for something better and to believe in my agency and the agency of others in making the best out of that potential.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

It's not that easy jusy to jump off a bridge. Plus you have to think about your loved ones.

Then that person isn't that committed to dying, are they? If there's a lot of resistance then it means there's a disconnect between what they're consciously saying to themselves and how they really feel and that means it's time to take a good hard look at themselves.

It's not cruddy. It's true.

It's a perspective, not objective fact. You don't have any proof that it's more than that, just subjective reasons for why you agree.

Whether it's valid or not is irrelevant, people have every right to think as they will. But I'll be frank-this is bloody stupid. That's an opinion, too, but it's as grounded as the notion that life is this horrible pain we inflict on the young. It's far more productive to focus on making life worth living than to prevent it from happening.

[CroMagna]

I agree that it's more productive to make life worth living--for those who are already here.

But to impose life on those who aren't here is, to be frank, bloody stupid.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

You can't speak meaningfully of having the will to consent unless the person in question is... well... alive and sentinent. So it doesn't make sense to me to say that you gave birth to a child against their consent.

Of course it does. It's precisely because they aren't sentient that it's done without their consent. In short, no one asks to be born.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I think it is safe to say that the parents are projecting their own visions of the world onto their imaginary, future children. It doesn't really have anything to do with the imaginary children at all.

And I can't help but think of this thread in the context of the parenting thread. I find it peculiar that a group of people would deny their imaginary future children the human experience in order to protect them from pain and death, and in doing so, strip those imaginary children of their integrity and personhood. The underlying implication is that children are not strong and creative enough to weave the positive and negatives of human life in a meaningful way. I chose meaningful as opposed to 'happy' or 'loving' as I don't think you necessarily need to feel those qualities all the time in order to have a meaningful life. But I'm sure children are just as capable of finding happiness and love as well. Also, the underlying implication is that 'adults know best', and therefore, they must make decisions on behalf of imaginary, future children.

This isn't love; this is just adults chosing to indulge in their own powerless perspectives of the world and imposing that world view onto potential others. This is control on behalf of the self.

Adults DO know best because they are already alive. People have children for all sorts of selfish reasons. Sacrificing the joy of motherhood is the selfless thing to do.