RANT: Libraries Are Useless

[SquarePeg]

I'm actually a left-winger, but I gotta say that most anything "public" these days is absolute crap! Makes you wonder about the democratic experiment if even I can get upset at public facilities....

Latest case in point: libraries.

Oh sure, if you want comic books and romance novels you can find tons of them. But anything serious and good luck!

Politics, business...seems like they don't have 'em here in Brooklyn! I haven't bothered to check Queens or Manhattan (yeah, we have three whole public library systems here in NYC!), but past experience with them has been about the same.

It's not even quiet in a library anymore. Thanks to all the libtards here in the city, staff are probably afraid of getting involved in a civil rights lawsuit! In fact, in a flagship branch of the Queens Public Library, they even have a "teen room" complete with noise -- uh, music -- soundtrack!!

Yes I know why they're trying to pimp themselves out like a pizzeria but it's so sad...I barely visit libraries anymore -- like twice a year now -- and will probably not even go in except to use the restrooms!

[Mariana Trench]

This is totally different from my experience of libraries: mostly in towns, small cities, and the occasional medium sized city like Columbia, SC. Every library I've been to has been an awesome environment that I'm extremely grateful for. Sometimes it's hard to find obscure books, but I rarely have trouble finding good non fiction (which is mostly what I read).

[Criseyde]

Do you have interlibrary loan?

[elucidate]

The only beef I have with some of the local libraries near me is they don't have a seperate, contained area for the young boys who go there after school to get their game on. They are so loud and the librarians never do anything to keep them quiet (not that they probably would be able to.). Libraries are a place of sanctuary for me, I go there because there is nowhere else, bar my own bedroom that is that quiet.

Other than that, they have everything I want.

[invisiblehouses]

This is also the opposite of my experience. We've got a little community library within walking distance of our house, and this summer I've been going every couple weeks.

They've got a wide array of fiction, non-fiction and just about everything else. There's even a respectable selection of music, although I'll admit the DVDs are mostly crap that people donated after realizing nobody in their right mind wants to watch You've Got Mail or Hard Rain even once, let alone repeatedly.

Maybe your expectations are coloring your experience. Try not having any. Expectations are a source of stress. Throw in a little gratitude and you might find a whole new library the next time you go in.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Do you have interlibrary loan?

This is what I was going to say. If you ask your librarian for a certain book or a certain topic they will usually get it for you even if it's at a different library.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by SquarePeg

Politics, business...seems like they don't have 'em here in Brooklyn!

I haven't seen a good politics or business book in a long time. So you're not actually missing anything. Read something serious.

[openeyes]

I didn't think very highly of the library I walked into when wandering around Manhattan, since there were no chairs to sit in and your bag was checked on the way out, but I've liked most other ones that I've been to.

The main local one has comfortable chairs looking out into the forest, hiking trails accessible from the parking lot, plenty of computers for going online, and, like all libraries in the US (even tiny rural ones near where I grew up), there's interlibrary loan.

When my fiancee was in Knoxville for an internship earlier this year we discovered that their main library had free wifi and a nice little coffee shop inside, and a park to walk around next door, along with ample seating and computers.

[Clint Cora]

The libraries are not too bad over here in the Toronto area. I especially appreciate the private study rooms when I need to really focus on something that I can't at home.

As for materials, they do have a lot of stuff but perhaps where the weakness lies is that they are often outdated. However, a lot of the classic books I want to read are there.

[jimbos123456]

I agree with you we waste billions of dollars on Libraries. The whole premise of a library is to borrow books without paying for them, so we should digitize all of that libraries books into PDF files, and anyone that pays taxes within that libraries jurisdiction can download it for free. It simply doesn't make any sense to keep them open anymore for the following reasons:

1. Cost of building 300k-1million

2. Cost of Librarian- 29-40k per year

3. Cost of utilities- 70-300 bucks per month.

4. Computers- 20k, cost of upgrading every few years, and maintenance


The cost of digitizing all of the books, and maintaining a website, would only be a few hundred or a few thousand bucks. It's a no brainer, lets close all the libraries down, and give everyone a tax refund.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by jimbos123456

I agree with you we waste billions of dollars on Libraries. The whole premise of a library is to borrow books without paying for them, so we should digitize all of that libraries books into PDF files, and anyone that pays taxes within that libraries jurisdiction can download it for free.

This is already happening in many libraries. But remember that not everyone owns a computer or ebook reader.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by jimbos123456

I agree with you we waste billions of dollars on Libraries. The whole premise of a library is to borrow books without paying for them, so we should digitize all of that libraries books into PDF files, and anyone that pays taxes within that libraries jurisdiction can download it for free. It simply doesn't make any sense to keep them open anymore for the following reasons:

1. Cost of building 300k-1million

2. Cost of Librarian- 29-40k per year

3. Cost of utilities- 70-300 bucks per month.

4. Computers- 20k, cost of upgrading every few years, and maintenance


The cost of digitizing all of the books, and maintaining a website, would only be a few hundred or a few thousand bucks. It's a no brainer, lets close all the libraries down, and give everyone a tax refund.

It's cute that you think the main purpose of a library is to store books. Wouldn't it be nice if your local bar stopped bothering with all the tables and chairs and just served the drinks from a window? Think of all the costs that would save.

[ZephyrusX]

Libraries offer more than books. Both in terms of services and products. Even public libraries have online subscriptions to journals and databases, and due to licensing fees, the costs of digitization are well above a few hundred dollars. Copyright law in Canada doesn't grant archival rights for digital licensed material, so many libraries (academic ones anyway) will often buy a print copy of the journal as well as digital access. This is because the major publishers in Canada often let go of certain publications, and if there is no print copy of the journal, the library will completely lose access to that journal. Publication companies also tend to sell their products in 'packages', which ends up costing the library more money than you would think. Just think about those silly 'cable packages' where you are forced to buy other channels you normally wouldn't watch in order to get the History Channel.

I don't know much about the digitization of books, but if you factor in copyright legislation, licensing fees, publication companies, the issue really is not all that simplistic and inexpensive. My local library does have an online feature where you can download files to your Kobo, but no publishing company in there right mind would allow a library to digitize a book and then give every library patron simultaneous access to that file. It doesn't work that way. They have to maintain and enforce a system that doesn't violate copyright law in Canada and this has been a problem in some libraries.

Besides, there is also the fact that the physical location of libraries often play role in fostering community outreach (ie. kids who do not have computers or the internat at home) and community involvement. Some libraries have mini theatres in them for the community to put on plays and what not.

I love my library (I'm also training to be a librarian, so I'm really biased ).

Originally Posted by jimbos123456

I agree with you we waste billions of dollars on Libraries. The whole premise of a library is to borrow books without paying for them, so we should digitize all of that libraries books into PDF files, and anyone that pays taxes within that libraries jurisdiction can download it for free. It simply doesn't make any sense to keep them open anymore for the following reasons:

1. Cost of building 300k-1million

2. Cost of Librarian- 29-40k per year

3. Cost of utilities- 70-300 bucks per month.

4. Computers- 20k, cost of upgrading every few years, and maintenance


The cost of digitizing all of the books, and maintaining a website, would only be a few hundred or a few thousand bucks. It's a no brainer, lets close all the libraries down, and give everyone a tax refund.

[180]

Our city library has changed to a media center.

The whole point of a library is for books. I'm not against other types of media, but if people want to listen to the latest rendition of Carmen, go to a music store. It's not what the library is supposed to be about.

Last time I was there, they removed an entire wing of non-fiction to fit in videos and movies. It's like a blockbuster in there, and 90% of the people who go there are in that wing.

It doesn't bother me that much, because I get the alone time and the quitness I need, plus the homeless don't sleep around me, so it has its benefits.

But if a library in 20 years is completely digital media, I might as well just give up on humanity.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by 180

The whole point of a library is for books. I'm not against other types of media, but if people want to listen to the latest rendition of Carmen, go to a music store. It's not what the library is supposed to be about.

If people want to read the latest Harry Potter, they'd go to a bookstore.

Why is a library for books?

[ZephyrusX]

Do media centres have books in them? There has been a move in Canada to bring in more media formats, but there are still lots of books around. I absolutely love curling up... er in bed... (treads carefully with word choices ) with a book. Opening that book up - the... feel... of it is ... so good.

I meant to type something serious! I can't do it, Mariana! You've distorted my thinking and now everything is sexual!

Anyway, I don't think books are replaceable. Not within my generation's life time anyone. Curling up in bed with a laptop or even a Kobo (Jesus, I don't sleep with Kobos ) just doesn't feel the same. Having said that, I love all the new digital stuff my libraries offer. I can access Naxos (a music database) for free and access a lot of music I normally wouldn't be able to afford on my own. My local library has video games and movies that you probably wouldn't be able to rent else where because they are so old. They even have CDs that are out of print. It is pretty cool.

Some libraries, though, are taking the habit of charging customers for taking out movies, games etc and I don't feel comfortable with that. One of the library's values is open access, and once you start charging people user fees and what basically amounts to 'rental fees', you are no longer promoting that value.

[jimbos123456]

I guess most people have fond childhood memories of the library, and it is emotional for them, hell I even liked my high school librarian a lot. However, as the economy continues to get worse, I think the political position of supporting a library is going to diminish, as municipalities start going bankrupt. As for copyright laws, they can just change the laws, as the political position of keeping libraries open becomes untenable. I just look at it as a cold budget issue, and try to not to let childhood memories interfere with it. It seems like libraries have become a place to socialize, instead of a place to acquire books, because we simply don't need the overhead anymore, when people can just download for free, instead of borrowing for free. I remember paying for books at the community college bookstore, and being ever so blatantly ripped off. I mean why do they have to use the "new version" of the history book every year? Was the way the World War II fought changed at all in the annals of history? Is mathematics calculated any differently from the 2010 version, and the 2011 version? Nope they are just trying to rip us suckah taxpayers off haha.

Letting them digitize all the books would save a lot of moolah. From a logical standpoint people are borrowing books that they did not pay for, so just let them download said books that they did not pay for anyway, just get rid of the librarian, and the overhead and save money, letting them borrow said books that they did not pay for over the internet. The publishers need to adapt, they are dinosaurs, that are like the music industry, people are catching on, and sick of getting ripped off. If the ways mathematics are calculated are still the same from the 2000 version, let the college students download the 2000 version free from the library website, instead of forking over 80 bucks and being ripped off, for the 2011 version that has the exact same information, except for some new flashy graphics. It's time for them to change with the times. These publishing companies are going to get "napstered" just like the music industry was I tellz ya. We should privatize the DMV for bad customer service, close down the USPS and replace them with Fedex and UPS to save money too, etc. But then again I am a budget extremist that wants lower taxes =).

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by jimbos123456

The publishers need to adapt, they are dinosaurs, that are like the music industry, people are catching on, and sick of getting ripped off. If the ways mathematics are calculated are still the same from the 2000 version, let the college students download the 2000 version free from the library website, instead of forking over 80 bucks and being ripped off, for the 2011 version that has the exact same information, except for some new flashy graphics.

If students can download text books for free, how are the publishing companies going to make money? Through the university/college book stores? But then, how are the book stores going to make money? Some how, those costs will be passed onto the student.

From a logical standpoint people are borrowing books that they did not pay for, so just let them download said books that they did not pay for anyway, just get rid of the librarian, and the overhead and save money, letting them borrow said books that they did not pay for over the internet.

There are some exceptions (such as digital libraries that archive folk art), but generally, libraries won't allow simultaneous downloads of a single book or item. This would violate copyright law, and more importantly, how would the publishng company make money if everyone could just download any book for free?

I personally think you ought to get me all of your tax money.

[invisiblehouses]

Are there some things that are more important than money?

Does a library serve a social purpose beyond just being a place to store books?

When you're convinced up front that there's not enough money to go around, do your thoughts allow you to accurately perceive reality?

[Artelus]

Originally Posted by jimbos123456

I agree with you we waste billions of dollars on Libraries. The whole premise of a library is to borrow books without paying for them, so we should digitize all of that libraries books into PDF files, and anyone that pays taxes within that libraries jurisdiction can download it for free. It simply doesn't make any sense to keep them open anymore for the following reasons:

1. Cost of building 300k-1million

2. Cost of Librarian- 29-40k per year

3. Cost of utilities- 70-300 bucks per month.

4. Computers- 20k, cost of upgrading every few years, and maintenance


The cost of digitizing all of the books, and maintaining a website, would only be a few hundred or a few thousand bucks. It's a no brainer, lets close all the libraries down, and give everyone a tax refund.

Having taxpayers download books for free is a terrible idea. Then who would buy books?

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Artelus

Having taxpayers download books for free is a terrible idea. Then who would buy books?

Funny enough, that was the argument against libraries in the first place.

Personally, I like the idea of download-able books whose copyrights have expired, but under current law it couldn't be more recent. I'm still totally in favor of libraries, though.

And people will still buy books.

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

This is totally different from my experience of libraries: mostly in towns, small cities, and the occasional medium sized city like Columbia, SC. Every library I've been to has been an awesome environment that I'm extremely grateful for. Sometimes it's hard to find obscure books, but I rarely have trouble finding good non fiction (which is mostly what I read).

Yeah, I must say, I've been to a couple libraries out of state and they resemble more of the traditional library setting from my youth. Maybe it's just a New Yawk thang, then....

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Do you have interlibrary loan?

Well, sure, but why bother: after waiting two weeks, will probably have pages missing and whatnot! Just go buy my own copies now...just spent ~$75 on books these past two weeks!

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by elucidate

The only beef I have with some of the local libraries near me is they don't have a seperate, contained area for the young boys who go there after school to get their game on. They are so loud and the librarians never do anything to keep them quiet (not that they probably would be able to.). Libraries are a place of sanctuary for me, I go there because there is nowhere else, bar my own bedroom that is that quiet.

Other than that, they have everything I want.

Well, like I said, far from shushing folks up (I remember when they used to kick you out from the library for excessive noise), they're now encouraging a boisterous atmosphere with even a teen-designated room...yeah, right, like teens will dutifully confine their antics to that one place!

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by invisiblehouses

Maybe your expectations are coloring your experience. Try not having any. Expectations are a source of stress. Throw in a little gratitude and you might find a whole new library the next time you go in.

Wish that were the case. This is something I've noticed with the passing years. Like I said, I'm sure all the budget cutbacks have taken their toll, and now more than ever these institutions are trying to appeal to the widest possible audience -- that is, the lowest common denominator.

Of course, as implied, I am grateful for the restrooms!

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by aelle

This is what I was going to say. If you ask your librarian for a certain book or a certain topic they will usually get it for you even if it's at a different library.

True. Might as well get it from Amazon, then! And return it for a refund....

As another person implied, maybe I'm being unreasonable. Maybe a library should just be a place where you can expect romance novels and the like, that's all. After all, it's "public!"

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I haven't seen a good politics or business book in a long time. So you're not actually missing anything. Read something serious.

LOL

Easy for you to say...I need to find out for myself!

But now, what are some good business books to you?

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by openeyes

I didn't think very highly of the library I walked into when wandering around Manhattan, since there were no chairs to sit in and your bag was checked on the way out, but I've liked most other ones that I've been to.

The main local one has comfortable chairs looking out into the forest, hiking trails accessible from the parking lot, plenty of computers for going online, and, like all libraries in the US (even tiny rural ones near where I grew up), there's interlibrary loan.

When my fiancee was in Knoxville for an internship earlier this year we discovered that their main library had free wifi and a nice little coffee shop inside, and a park to walk around next door, along with ample seating and computers.

Yeah, I guess New York's just overwhelmed and making do.

Yes, there's free WiFi in the Queens system, though it's quite slow.

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by Clint Cora

The libraries are not too bad over here in the Toronto area. I especially appreciate the private study rooms when I need to really focus on something that I can't at home.

As for materials, they do have a lot of stuff but perhaps where the weakness lies is that they are often outdated. However, a lot of the classic books I want to read are there.

Yeah, what's up with that?? You can be sure the latest pulp fiction is available, but anything serious and it's quite antiquated.

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by jimbos123456

I agree with you we waste billions of dollars on Libraries. The whole premise of a library is to borrow books without paying for them, so we should digitize all of that libraries books into PDF files, and anyone that pays taxes within that libraries jurisdiction can download it for free. It simply doesn't make any sense to keep them open anymore for the following reasons:

1. Cost of building 300k-1million

2. Cost of Librarian- 29-40k per year

3. Cost of utilities- 70-300 bucks per month.

4. Computers- 20k, cost of upgrading every few years, and maintenance


The cost of digitizing all of the books, and maintaining a website, would only be a few hundred or a few thousand bucks. It's a no brainer, lets close all the libraries down, and give everyone a tax refund.

Wow, you know, for all my dissatisfaction I'd never even considered closing 'em down!

I do think government should be encouraging the digitization of books...à la Google...and I do agree that there's a lot of waste in constantly updating fancy-schmancy gimmicky stuff like computer terminals, décor, et cetera...but closing 'em down?? Hey, they're still good for kids to go to after school, especially the not so rich or middle-class ones....