Chinese mothers are superior?

[CroMagna]

Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior

A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:

• attend a sleepover

• have a playdate

• be in a school play

• complain about not being in a school play

• watch TV or play computer games

• choose their own extracurricular activities

• get any grade less than an A

• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama

• play any instrument other than the piano or violin

• not play the piano or violin...

Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior - WSJ.com
—Amy Chua is a professor at Yale Law School. This essay is excerpted from "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" by Amy Chua.

[CroMagna]

OK, we all know I was an academically gifted little girl. What I don’t publicize, is that I was not an especially motivated one. I was an overachiever only through a)genetic luck, and b)incredible pressure from my parents. My parents wanted me to go to Harvard and be a doctor or a lawyer, and I wanted to play piano and hang out with friends.

Needless to say, my parents and I butted heads. My father was born in Japan, and my mother was born in Germany. They were from the “old school”, strong on discipline, and overachievers themselves, so they were in no way being hypocritical with their demands on me. (My dad went to Caltech on full academic scholarship for math and physics. He’s the biggest nerd I know)

I was grounded for every “B” I got, and beaten for getting anything lower than that. I was not allowed to socialize at all, or go to parties, because they said there’d be time for that after I got into a good college. Well, I did what any red-blooded American kid would do, I’d sneak out. And get caught. And get beaten. And get grounded again. Without launching into too much detail, let’s just say I was unhappy. (I tried to kill myself a lot) (Asian kids everywhere have e-mailed me to verify that this is standard practice in Asian households – what a relief to find out I’m normal, huh!)

-Asia Carrera, porn star The Wall Street Journal Explains “Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior” | Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

My father was born in Japan, and my mother was born in Germany.

Japan + Germany. That too is a powerful combination for parental influence leading to academic success - about as good as China.

[Dulma]

"Superior" is when your children are happier, more aware, and better able to handle themselves emotionally and otherwise because of the parenting of their mothers (and fathers).

[ZephyrusX]

Awesome reply:

So **** you, Amy Chua, for reinforcing that tired old model minority stereotype. For speaking for an entire group of people and ascribing your abusive parenting to your culture. [...]

And **** you again, Amy Chua, when I think about the high rates of suicides among Asian Americans, especially young women. **** you for the fifty percent of crisis calls at the university from Asian American students.

**** you for every person who expresses surprise at my chosen profession. Because we don’t do that. [...]

**** you for the kids who are made to feel like idiots because they are not geniuses. Or musical prodigies. Or the kids who are told that our people don’t speak out, don’t protest, aren’t politically active, aren’t activists. [...]

**** you for perpetuating racism. And **** the Wall Street Journal for promoting your majority view voice.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Dulma

"Superior" is when your children are happier, more aware, and better able to handle themselves emotionally and otherwise because of the parenting of their mothers (and fathers).

But what if they are happy people who work at McDonalds?

[ZephyrusX]

The only aspect of the article that I liked was this:

In other words, Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently.

I see this underlying assumption in my environment and it is not just directed at children. People want to spare your feelings because they assume that you cannot 'bear it'. They think you are weak. Spare me the pity please. Speak to me plainly and bluntly and I'll show the same respect towards you because I believe you are strong enough to hear the truth. This is respect.

But lets cut the BS. Calling your child a piece of garbage is abuse. The author claims that she doesn't actually believe this; she is just trying to be motivating and loving. If this is how she really feels, speak the truth. Don't coat your feelings in harsh words that are designed to manipulate your child in behaving the way you feel is best.

I don't hold the opinion that parents know best and that their opinions ought to override the desires of their children. If I ever have children, I'll engage them in a open dialogue where it is my role to guide and to support their decisions. By guidance, I don't mean coercion. I could point out that working at McDonalds will not likely bring them happiness as it will only confer financial and workplace instability. And I'll trust that my children will be able to construct a life that is meaningful and joyous for themselves without my coercion and manipulation. If they stumble and fall, I'll trust that they will be able to get back up again and I'll be there to support them.

[Dulma]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

But what if they are happy people who work at McDonalds?

I can't imagine what more you'd want for your child other than happiness. Real happiness, I mean.

If they work at McDonald's and it irks you and you as a parent ('you' in the general sense, naturally) can't bare to tell your friends about what your son or daughter does for a living, then that's your problem. A child isn't a possession or a doll to assign the roles and qualities of your whim.

[VinceG]

Regarding Amy Chua and the WSJ article:

The Last Psychiatrist: Are Chinese Mothers Superior To American Mothers?

[Acting Like Godot]

Amy's starting point is that many Americans are curious about how so many Asian Americans become successful in things such as studies and music. So she tells you how - it's hard work; parental pressure etc.

Amy didn't say that her methods are superior in producing happiness. She said that her methods are superior in producing kids who excel in studies, music etc.

At the other end of the spectrum, I don't think that being extremely permissive and lax as a parent is exactly a great formula for happy children either.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I don't hold the opinion that parents know best and that their opinions ought to override the desires of their children. If I ever have children, I'll engage them in a open dialogue where it is my role to guide and to support their decisions.

If you ever have children, some decisions you'll see them make at different ages are things like refusing to use the potty; flinging their baby food on the floor; chewing your slipper; spitting out their medicine; climbing to dangerous places like over the edge of the cot; bawling when you won't buy them a toy at the department store etc.

Yes, you will feel that you know better than your children. Much better.

The balance will change over the years, but it is a very incremental process. They do need guidance. Parenting ability, of course, also varies from parent to parent.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Regarding Amy Chua and the WSJ article:

The Last Psychiatrist: Are Chinese Mothers Superior To American Mothers?

Interesting read. As for the first part, the author is right on the money. I've heard it from more than one person here in Korea - one in particular, whose overcoached 6 year old daughter comes on his business trips to act as an interpreter, told me explicitely that his only goal in life was to get his daughter into Harvard. And he's going for it as aggressively as he can.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

But what if they are happy people who work at McDonalds?

This being a personal growth website, after all, I would say that the child must be encouraged to consider whether he can be happier working somewhere else that offers more prospects in terms of pay, learning opportunities, career challenges etc.

In my country, MacDonalds does employ mentally handicapped people. For them (or so e of them), it may be the case that the job fits their capabilities well and they would find it difficult to cope with another kind of child. If so, as a parent, you might encourage the child to keep working at MacDonalds.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

But what if they are happy people who work at McDonalds?

I remember A.S. Neil addressing this question about his free school (ie unschooling). (I paraphrase What if your kid is happy being a bum? I'd have no problem with that. But as it turns out, no graduate from my school has ever chosen to be a bum...

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by aelle

I remember A.S. Neil addressing this question about his free school (ie unschooling). (I paraphrase What if your kid is happy being a bum? I'd have no problem with that. But as it turns out, no graduate from my school has ever chosen to be a bum...

The difference lies in that word "chosen".

If you were involuntarily a bum, it is likely that it won't be just your parents who feel that this is tragic. YOU would feel that this is tragic too.

[Mariana Trench]

I sense a bit of a false dichotomy, even though it's not been explicitly stated:

You can:

a) Be harsh, strict, and forceful to make your kids work their finger to the bone and fit a model of success.

or, b) Ignore their academic life or plaster it with self-esteem slogans so they end up at McDonalds*.

Or perhaps it's even a "false spectrum": that you do something along those lines just to varying degrees to try to hit "a balance".

What's really missing here, though, is the idea of instilling a sense of value of education, thoughtfulness, and intelligence through example and attitude. This would be my biggest criticism of American youth/suburban/media culture: frankly, it's a culture of stupidity. Being smart isn't "cool", following a bunch of inane social customs that change every week is.

Not to mention, things go a lot smoother when there's an internalization and harmonization of values as opposed to a constant battle.

*Though I do know one young adult who is genuinely happy with his job at a grocery store spending time besides that mainly playing his guitar, and not at the moment doing anything to "advance his position".

[SatvikBeri]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Amy's starting point is that many Americans are curious about how so many Asian Americans become successful in things such as studies and music. So she tells you how - it's hard work; parental pressure etc.

Amy didn't say that her methods are superior in producing happiness. She said that her methods are superior in producing kids who excel in studies, music etc.

At the other end of the spectrum, I don't think that being extremely permissive and lax as a parent is exactly a great formula for happy children either.

Thanks for emphasizing the context.

I think Amy Chua's point of things usually not becoming fun before you get good at it is very important. The people I know who really enjoy playing music were pressured into playing an instrument since they were young, but are very happy for that experience now. On the other hand you have cases like Andre Agassi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia who can get extremely talented at something yet hate their craft.

There is a sense of pleasure that can only be experienced through extreme competence at a task, and I wouldn't want to deprive my future-hypothetical-children of that. And learning to be excellent at one thing makes it easier to be excellent at others.

I'm not sure that a hyper-authoritarian approach is the best way though, even if we're talking about pure ability. A lot of kids get very mentally blocked from the pressure, and then perform under their natural abilities for a long time-whereas people who are able to relax and enjoy what they're doing often tend to do very well. Teaching kids how to set habits, discipline, and the potential of long term rewards is probably the approach I'll take.

[Luxy]

Ouch.

I'm chinese.

This reminds me of my mother and the culture here where I am.

I was also made to learn piano as a kid. The teacher was "results driven" and when I grew up, I realised that was not by chance. My mum chose a results-driven music teacher. She was impressed by the music teacher, because the music teacher was "so good", she had the ability to tell how much the child practiced during the week. Needless to say, I was traumatised during my music lessons.

Nothing was ever said about how music is supposed to be enjoyment. Only "practice practice practice !!!!"

When I grew up, I raelised that there are many others who are like me, we were forced to learn piano (or violin or ballet etc) as kids. I have known some of us who go back to our childhood to heal the pain around the piano/violin/ballet, so that we can rediscover the joy of music, and learn the instrument for the pure love of it.

In The movie Joy Luck Club , there is a Chinese girl who was forced by her mother to learn piano.

I so identified with the character!

And so i agree that, orientals (not just chinese, but also japanese and koreans) can be insane about success through academics. I know many of them, including my friends who are parents. And I have friends who were hothoused by their own parents when they were young.

i'm currently giving home tutoring to a 12 year old girl who have seperate tutors for her English, Maths and Science subjects. She has 6-8 hours of tutoring per week. that's on top of her school lessons. And she's already doing very well in school.

[Dulma]

"I know what's best for you" is only acceptable and accurate up to a point. I think respecting your child as a separate human being with his or her own desires, priorities, and right to failure and mistakes is paramount to good parenting.

[Criseyde]

My parents very much bought into the authoritarian style of parenting. Not everything, but a lot of things in that article were true in my childhood, especially re: boys and grades.

At least I didn't have to practice viola for 3 hours a day, and I was allowed to quit when I went en pointe, in ballet.

My mother has really let up in the last few years. Man, my sister doesn't know how good she has it.

I have no reference point. I can't even condemn it because I have no idea what I would be like if my parents hadn't done that. It's true that I was pretty unmotivated. I only wanted to do things I cared about. I didn't have an intrinsic drive to do homework or anything like that. I probably would have been a B student without them pushing me.

Then again, once I finally got to college and asserted my own life path, I found that inner drive, went well beyond the bare minimum that was expected of me, and graduated with honors and distinction.

Looking at the bigger picture, I have to shrug and say it wasn't nearly as bad as other things. It's not like I wasn't capable. It might have been different if I really hadn't been capable of what they were trying to get me to do.

Another thought I had when this story blew up was that people who never experienced this really love to condemn it. I kind of wonder why that is.

[Criseyde]

Also, the story with Lulu and the piano? I've been there. I don't really want to divulge every detail of my childhood, but again, I'm not really sure how much that affected me. Maybe it's an issue of degrees -- I definitely wasn't ever beaten, and I was allowed to socialize (somewhat).

Is it even possible not to damage your kids?

I don't know. I have very mixed feelings. Maybe this is why I don't want children.

[Fendaril]

I personally think that CroMagna had an excellent childhood.

All of those beatings and groundings did not go to vain.

Children are naturally undisciplined. If they had their way, they would never go to school, never do work, and possibly play the entire day, everyday.

The world would be a chaotic place. Children need to be trained.They are irresponsible by nature. I know during my school years(just ended) most kids would wait to the last day to do HW, never study for tests, and cheat on everything.

Copying homework was a daily occurrence.Most people never deserved the grades they got, minus a select few.

I know that if my parents never cared, I would be failing just about everything. It helps to have a paranoid parent.

Even tho I hate to admit it, I wish my mom beat me for getting less then a 'B'. I probably would have a full scholarship by now.

But she didn't, and I am going to a regular 4 year college that I have to pay for.

[Clint Cora]

I'm from that community and yes, parents push on academics and music. But looking in hindsight, that is not a very balanced upbringing. Kids are generally not encouraged in sports, especially girls. So when they reach adulthood, many will not life a heathly active lifestyle.

Also, many Asian kids come out with very poor social skills. I was one of them. And they will find the hard way into their careers, that people skills are often more important than technical skills in terms of who gets promotions.

Whenever I do talks to ethnic kids or their parents, I stress balance and especially the development of people skills in addition to the usual academics.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Fendaril

I personally think that CroMagna had an excellent childhood.

All of those beatings and groundings did not go to vain.

Children are naturally undisciplined. If they had their way, they would never go to school, never do work, and possibly play the entire day, everyday.

The world would be a chaotic place. Children need to be trained.They are irresponsible by nature. I know during my school years(just ended) most kids would wait to the last day to do HW, never study for tests, and cheat on everything.

Copying homework was a daily occurrence.Most people never deserved the grades they got, minus a select few.

I know that if my parents never cared, I would be failing just about everything. It helps to have a paranoid parent.

Even tho I hate to admit it, I wish my mom beat me for getting less then a 'B'. I probably would have a full scholarship by now.

But she didn't, and I am going to a regular 4 year college that I have to pay for.

That wasn't CroMagna's childhood: that was her quoting a porn star.

My parent cared, but they never enforced grades on me, because I always had higher standards for myself than they did for me. Their standard was A's in grade school (while mine was 99's and 100's) and B's onward (while mine was "Headmaster's List": A's and some other qualifications). They did make me take piano lessons, but I ended up enjoying them, and wish I could have found as qualified of a teacher when we moved across the country. There was a point where there was nothing I enjoyed more than handing in some work I was *really* proud of, like a research paper (it didn't hurt that's that was the one area I usually bested a certain rival ).

My most common feedback on grades was that they were happy, and I thought I wanted to do better.

This was not because anyone forced me. It was because my curiosity was encouraged from a very young age, I was told I was smart and that being smart was a good thing, and I continued to be in an environment where most of my peers also valued their education.

While we're on the subject: what's wrong with play? I got so many valuable insights growing up outside of school, and I mean things that helped me in my academic career. By the time I was in 1st grade I used to joke with my dad that I learned more asking him questions on the way to school than I did at school itself.

[VinceG]

I don't think it's really possible to damage your children, at least, not in any way that matters. I believe that before you were born, your Higher Self and guides sit around and decide which parents would be best for you out of the available options. Whatever your relationship with your parents, that was the one that was intended for you, from day one.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Dulma

"I know what's best for you" is only acceptable and accurate up to a point. I think respecting your child as a separate human being with his or her own desires, priorities, and right to failure and mistakes is paramount to good parenting.

Sure. The question is where is that point?

Bear in mind that your child begins life not knowing how to walk, talk, hold a spoon, not touch a fire, how to cross a road.

Now, if you think that he has a right to fail and learn from his mistake, by crossing the road without knowing how, and getting knocked down by a car, then I think you're sick.

Of course, that was an extreme example, made to illustrate a point. The point is the difficulty and the subjectivity of the question of when the parent should allow the child the freedom to do as he pleases, and when the parent should offer guidance, and when the parent should step in with that ugly word - coercion.

The range & complexity of decisions morphs and evolves - what the child wants to do at 2 months, 6 months, 9 months, 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, 14 years, 16 years, 18 years, 21 years.

I don't think there are any obvious, simple, straightforward answers here. Among other things, I'd say that culture is a factor. Also the child's and parent's individual personalities.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by VinceG

I don't think it's really possible to damage your children, at least, not in any way that matters. I believe that before you were born, your Higher Self and guides sit around and decide which parents would be best for you out of the available options. Whatever your relationship with your parents, that was the one that was intended for you, from day one.

I think this idea makes sense.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

My parents very much bought into the authoritarian style of parenting. Not everything, but a lot of things in that article were true in my childhood, especially re: boys and grades.

Here is another interesting example for Dulma to consider.

As a parent, when would you allow your child to do completely as he/she pleases, as far as sex is concerned, so as to respect his/her right to learn from failure?

21 years old?
18 years old?
16 years old?
14 years old?

10 years?

Across the whole spectrum - kissing, dating, holding hands, penetrative sex, watching porn. Coercion, advice or just whatever?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Clint Cora

I'm from that community and yes, parents push on academics and music. But looking in hindsight, that is not a very balanced upbringing. Kids are generally not encouraged in sports, especially girls. So when they reach adulthood, many will not life a heathly active lifestyle.

Well, if a parent had pushed her child in swimming or tennis or basketball as hard as Amy Chua had pushed her children in piano, I think that the same arguments could be made as were made against Amy.

I'd add the following:


1. Vast majority of successful people in the world got there by pushing hard (and/or being pushed hard). A very tiny minority may have become successful by luck or unusual talent.

2. I doubt if very successful people are less happy than very unsuccessful people.

3. It takes a formidable amount of sustained dedication and commitment to apply Amy's parenting approach. Not everyone can do it (assuming that they wanted to).

If a parent can't get his or her own act together (eg struggling as a single/divorced parent, or needing to focus on his/her own career) or is simply less dedicated, less interested, committed, that parent will just say, screw the piano lessons, forget the grades, you just go to school and do whatever you like, ok.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Here is another interesting example for Dulma to consider.

As a parent, when would you allow your child to do completely as he/she pleases, as far as sex is concerned, so as to respect his/her right to learn from failure?

21 years old?
18 years old?
16 years old?
14 years old?

10 years?

Across the whole spectrum - kissing, dating, holding hands, penetrative sex, watching porn. Coercion, advice or just whatever?

When I say authoritarian, I mean I wasn't allowed to hang out with boys at all, except in mixed groups at birthday parties or for studying in the house of an Indian family. Mixed groups any other time were still a no. I think I was allowed to go to a couple football games in a mixed group as a senior.

No phone calls with boys until I was 16, and even then I had to sneak it. My mom got suspicious if I talked to them for too long. "Too long" was longer than 15 minutes.

I was finally allowed to hang out with *one* guy, who had been my friend for years, three months before I turned 17. And it was only because he was leaving for college.

I also couldn't drive until I was 17 and a half (this was partially my fault, but mostly I didn't bother to get a license because my mom was saying I wouldn't be allowed to drive alone anyway), and I wasn't allowed to ride with teenagers, and I lived a 20 minute drive away from all my friends, so there was no sneaking around either.

Honestly, I think this is the area where that parenting method completely failed, because it is completely out of step with the culture I grew up in. Although I don't have a baby or any STDs, so maybe some would disagree...