Greek Crisis

[Nimue]

I'm supposed to study for my exams, right now, but I can't...

How can I?

When I know that monuments like Parthenon are officially out for rent?
That all our beaches and all economical resources and grounds and human rights are officially out for sale?
That tomorrow we may have to pay foreign countries in order to sail from our own harbors, to walk in our beaches, or to visit our own historical monuments?

How can I calm down when I see such violence from people who were supposed to protect us? police hits peaceful protesters

How can I calm down when, although protesters become more by time, there are still Greeks so hypnotized by the mass media that they act as if everything's free and all right? When other Greeks want to come back in our country just to stay at Syntagma square and protest?

I'm literally crying right now... Is there even a way out of this?

[Andrew Gubb]

Horrible injustices are going to go on for a long time... the way out for now is to put them in a healthy perspective so that we can keep living. Care, and do as your conscience directs you, though do try not to be too attached to outcomes, cause it's going to be a long time before this Earth no longer has anything to cry about in it.

I'm with you in spirit. There are others like you out there. Stay strong

[Nimue]

Thank you, Andrew

[Andrew Gubb]

Welcome

[Nimue]

I especially liked your phrase, "it's going to be a long time before this Earth no longer has anything to cry about in it". I managed to concentrate on my lessons after this

But seeing things under a healthy perspective, that's what makes me cry. Because I have no idea of what the price of freedom will be tomorrow. I've seen documentaries of what happened to other countries, and I don't like it. Anything could be taken from us.
I'm not saying I won't be still alive after this, but lots of people don't have money to eat, or feed their kids. There are people losing their homes. I see people looking for stuff in the garbage (I do keep an eye myself sometimes, not for food of course-I found a nice bag and two books the other day). I have to leave this rented house and go live with my parents and my sis, in 3-4 months, and on the top of living with my parents, I don't know if I'll manage to keep the relationship with my bf after moving-none of us has money to travel between the cities (It'll be 100 euros for twice a month, and no place to spend the night). We can't even go out for a drink or a cinema right now for more than twice a month because we don't have money. I see people I know only in the protest square, lastly. That's where we go out with my bf too.

My grandpas live with 500 euros a month, they have un-rented and currently live at our village, where they work hard to keep the place in care despite their age, as they are very proud in character. And we can't keep an eye on them in case they have health problems. My grandpa got ill the other time, and he was transferred to hospital by a worker that helps them at times. He'd probably be done for if that man wasn't there. My grandpa almost died, and who knows what will happen to other people now that many hospitals are closing here!

My mother's income is getting slimmer every so and then, and my father is working from waking to sleep. We still have place to live and food to eat, thankfully. I do remember last time I went home, we spent the toilet paper carefully, because we were waiting for the next salary to get more

Live your myth in Greece!!!!

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Nimue

I especially liked your phrase, "it's going to be a long time before this Earth no longer has anything to cry about in it". I managed to concentrate on my lessons after this

But seeing things under a healthy perspective, that's what makes me cry. Because I have no idea of what the price of freedom will be tomorrow. I've seen documentaries of what happened to other countries, and I don't like it. Anything could be taken from us.
I'm not saying I won't be still alive after this, but lots of people don't have money to eat, or feed their kids. There are people losing their homes. I see people looking for stuff in the garbage (I do keep an eye myself sometimes, not for food of course-I found a nice bag and two books the other day). I have to leave this rented house and go live with my parents and my sis, in 3-4 months, and on the top of living with my parents, I don't know if I'll manage to keep the relationship with my bf after moving-none of us has money to travel between the cities (It'll be 100 euros for twice a month, and no place to spend the night). We can't even go out for a drink or a cinema right now for more than twice a month because we don't have money. I see people I know only in the protest square, lastly. That's where we go out with my bf too.

My grandpas live with 500 euros a month, they have un-rented and currently live at our village, where they work hard to keep the place in care despite their age, as they are very proud in character. And we can't keep an eye on them in case they have health problems. My grandpa got ill the other time, and he was transferred to hospital by a worker that helps them at times. He'd probably be done for if that man wasn't there. My grandpa almost died, and who knows what will happen to other people now that many hospitals are closing here!

My mother's income is getting slimmer every so and then, and my father is working from waking to sleep. We still have place to live and food to eat, thankfully. I do remember last time I went home, we spent the toilet paper carefully, because we were waiting for the next salary to get more

Live your myth in Greece!!!!

Where do you live, Athens? My friend Vassiliki said things were pretty crazy over there last time I talked with her... she was talking about moving to another country.

I think it's fine to be going through all this. What I meant by "healthy perspective" is that eventually you might be able to zoom out and not have the feeling be so overwhelming. It's hard that your own situation is combined with all the hurt you see around you. I guess just focus on one thing at a time and don't put more on your plate than you can handle. If you can't deal with the problems of Greece at the moment, maybe focus as much as you can on just your own problems. See what you can do that will make a real impact. Focus hard on whatever you can see you could get to shift in some way. When you feel ready, expand your scope and start working on other projects, maybe projects which will affect more people.

It's not your responsibility to do it all at once. You're not alone in the world

[Nimue]

I'm studying in Patras (where I rent), and my family lives in Athens (where I'm going to move). Things used to be so nice once, at Athens too... not perfect, of course, but we had ways to live nicely, even people who didn't have much money.
If I'm made to live in Athens, I may have to move at another country too, I don't know if I can stand living there permanently, let alone finding a job. But I'll pretty much have to leave my whole life back, and the people I love too

You are right, I'm not the president or something (thankfully ) I guess I'll just study for these few days
I have to give my best to the riot if I want to protect my dreams, and my friends' dreams, though... I hope we'll manage, eventually, somehow. But I'm afraid the only jobs left will be at the companies that will buy the country piece-by-piece. I don't want to live like this, to work for such people, even if the salary is good.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Nimue

I'm studying in Patras (where I rent), and my family lives in Athens (where I'm going to move). Things used to be so nice once, at Athens too... not perfect, of course, but we had ways to live nicely, even people who didn't have much money.
If I'm made to live in Athens, I may have to move at another country too, I don't know if I can stand living there permanently, let alone finding a job. But I'll pretty much have to leave my whole life back, and the people I love too

You are right, I'm not the president or something (thankfully ) I guess I'll just study for these few days
I have to give my best to the riot if I want to protect my dreams, and my friends' dreams, though... I hope we'll manage, eventually, somehow. But I'm afraid the only jobs left will be at the companies that will buy the country piece-by-piece. I don't want to live like this, to work for such people, even if the salary is good.

Have you ever thought about starting your own business? It's the path I'm taking, or looking to take (I mean I run my own gig but it's not what you think of when you hear "business"... it's small scale stuff)... currently I'm mostly teaching English, doing some other things on the side, too. It's so good to set things up yourself so you're working by your rules, and not anyone else's...

You could start the same way as me, if you wanted Stick up two or three thousand posters and I guarantee you'll have enough paying English students to live on. If you wanted you could get even more students and have enough to help your family out too.

At least here in Spain it's easy, but I think in Greece it must be similar. No matter if the world's ending tomorrow, everyone needs English

[Nimue]

I thought of teaching too, but there are so many teachers unemployed, especially now... My bf is one, and is making some money from teaching at homes, but it's not enough to make a full living. English sounds nice! I speak english quite well, and I'm gonna take the last certificate soon (as soon as I can find the 150 euros needed for the exams... ) Pretty much anyone has the certificate here, but it's worth a shot.

I'd love to start my own buisness (And it's so nice to know you have managed to do just that!!! I'm so happy for you! ) I've thought of opening a blog hosting site, or opening a graphics art buisness (after I learn enough). But the constant taxes that are coming now scare me, frankly. It's tricky, I could end up being in debt for nothing.

I'm studying materials science, but although it's interesting, I don't actually love it-so I don't think I could be competitive enough if I left my country, anyway. On the other side, not many greek companies are still alive... The crisis is closing jobs all the time, big and small... I see closing shops really often since the major crisis started. Our economy is getting murdered, practically.

Thanks again for your support, Andrew

---------

I just want to be free to live and work in my own country, every single one of my friends thinks of this as a dream... Everyone thinks that the best chance of survival is away from Greece... I can't stand this situation, or leaving without a fight... Our country wasn't like that in the past...

[Peterw]

I'm wondering how the international community can help the people affected by all this. Greece has such amazing history and sights and is a very popular holiday destination. Perhaps it could get a boost by some making as many people as possible go and see the sites. Some massive online campaign alng the lines of - "Help Greece - go and see it!"

[Nimue]

This sounds good, Peterw! But... The thing is, it's too late for this. Right now, if the popularity raises, this may put an even higher budget on our monuments... Which means simply more money for the renters, as soon as they'll get to the monuments. It won't save us economically, the selling of our country has already been signed And they sold us blindfold, they even voted against a team that would examine our debt and find a way out of this.
The idea of a campaign of some sort sounds good, though-an idea to keep in mind, the very least

We have some lawyers and economists working for figuring out a way out of this, a ton of prosecutions (is this the right word?) from citizens against higher-ups too, but this will most probably prove insufficcient, considering the forces we're up against. I wonder in what way we could be helped, except the heartwarming verbal support we get from other nations' citizens.
Another problem is that we need to be even more organized... and... well... we're Greeks Also, we hate all signs of political power after everything that has happened, so no one is willing to bring forth ideas of further political organization, if anyone does he/she is seen with suspicion (sometimes fairly, sometimes not). I guess we'll see how this works out.

Note: if you guys have any question about how things are here, do ask

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Nimue

I thought of teaching too, but there are so many teachers unemployed, especially now... My bf is one, and is making some money from teaching at homes, but it's not enough to make a full living. English sounds nice! I speak english quite well, and I'm gonna take the last certificate soon (as soon as I can find the 150 euros needed for the exams... ) Pretty much anyone has the certificate here, but it's worth a shot.

Go for it! Though you might be interested to know that I do English with zero qualifications. People don't need it They just want English classes. So long as I speak good English and they learn something, they're happy.

I'd love to start my own buisness (And it's so nice to know you have managed to do just that!!! I'm so happy for you! )

Thanks It's such a steep learning curve, but so worth it... I LOVE the freedom, couldn't live without it I think.

I've thought of opening a blog hosting site, or opening a graphics art buisness (after I learn enough). But the constant taxes that are coming now scare me, frankly. It's tricky, I could end up being in debt for nothing.

Yeah... I get ya. I still haven't gotten into a business like that where you need to invest and you have risk and need to pay taxes. My English works because it's simple, tax free, and low-cost.

I do want to start a restaurant (hopefully a restaurant chain) and do other stuff later, though. I'm trying to start with what's easy and work from there. And I'd definitely prefer to start a business from savings than get into debt, if at all possible.

I'm studying materials science, but although it's interesting, I don't actually love it-so I don't think I could be competitive enough if I left my country, anyway. On the other side, not many greek companies are still alive... The crisis is closing jobs all the time, big and small... I see closing shops really often since the major crisis started. Our economy is getting murdered, practically.

Thanks again for your support, Andrew

You're welcome lovely

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Been there, Nimue. If there's one thing that makes me totally inconsolably wrathful, it's injustice. Can't sleep at night knowing the state of the world. The whole power play of civilization really irks me, you know? I feel we'd be much better off without it and that the whole damn thing is just one big ugly compromise.

I thought a bit deeply about ~it all~ and decided to explain it to myself this way:

Before human beings could make fire, could make tools or words, we were inseparable from the flora and fauna of the world. Naturally this made us the prey of the predators of nature. Someone had to stand up and fight back to protect us, so we didn't live in fear anymore. But we could only do that with tools, with wit and trickery. Traps, spears, bows and fire. Unnatural things from the unnatural urge to rebel against Nature. We threw ourselves out of Eden, ran out screaming.

Even the most primitive of the primitives are not one with nature. It's because of fear. We're made of meat. We're food to a whole host of things. Why do we idolize and make Gods out of the men and women who declare themselves to be divine sacrifices? What was it about Jesus that got under so many people's skin? That sort of sacrifice is antithetical to the whole system, the whole reason we lock our doors at night and have 911 on speed dial. It's all built around survival. That's how we got into this whole mess in the first place and why people like Jesus decided to go get themselves nailed to a cross to try and get people to realize the horrible truth of the human condition. That in order to survive, something else must suffer and die on our behalf. Again with Jesus, because that man was a ****ing genius, when he was going on and on about that eating my body and drinking my blood stuff he was talking about the whole Universe being the body of Christ, the Whole or the One (whatever you want to call it really, as long as you get the meaning) and that tearing it apart and devouring it to sustain your individual identity is the cause of all the world's suffering.

Tough pill to swallow really. Sorry if I sound like a religious nut nut. I'm not really Christian or dogmatic or anything like that, I just think Jesus was an absolutely brilliant mystic and an awesome poet.

In a way though me getting ultra metaphysical about this is seen by a lot of people as an artful way of dodging any responsibility to do something about it. But what can we do, really? Feeding the hungry makes life into food and the satiated will only be hungry again.

Ah samsara, thou art a cruel and heartless trickster!

[Nimue]

Andrew-that's interesting, indeed I'll think about it as an option
I like your way of thinking, I just haven't thought of actually having money to save, looks like crisis is starting to get on my way of thought I can try to start that way, indeed
I hope you'll manage to open your restaurant soon, good luck
Thanks again for the sweet support

KV-A very neat analysis, and I know it is true. But if this way of becoming stronger is only getting us this far, perhaps humanity should take another step of evolution. We did a revolution against (?) nature once, perhaps we need to do a revolution against ourselves now in a way never thought before. And a thing we tell sometimes each other at the square, is that we need to change ourselves to change the system, because often people have the rulers they deserve. Maybe this one time nothing significant will change, but I see the realization of the need to change ourselves as important.

[ar81]

Bankers are latinamericanizing Greek people. Under the excuse of an insolvent indebted government they lend money so they save insolvent banks that lend money to the insolvent government. Stage 1, remove any sovereignity from Greece.

Stage two, privatize business. For sure giving away profitable business will "increase" government income, just like when you give away the chicken that gave you golden eggs. The bounty is complete.

Taxpayers will pay, just like in third world Latin America was sunk in the 1980s

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Nimue

I hope you'll manage to open your restaurant soon, good luck

Thanks

Thanks again for the sweet support

<3<3<3

[elucidate]

I love this thread. Sweet humanity.

[Peterw]

Greek tourism booms:

Greek tourism booms despite troubles | Video | Reuters.com

[Cado]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

Even the most primitive of the primitives are not one with nature. It's because of fear. We're made of meat. We're food to a whole host of things. Why do we idolize and make Gods out of the men and women who declare themselves to be divine sacrifices? What was it about Jesus that got under so many people's skin? That sort of sacrifice is antithetical to the whole system, the whole reason we lock our doors at night and have 911 on speed dial. It's all built around survival. That's how we got into this whole mess in the first place and why people like Jesus decided to go get themselves nailed to a cross to try and get people to realize the horrible truth of the human condition. That in order to survive, something else must suffer and die on our behalf. Again with Jesus, because that man was a ****ing genius, when he was going on and on about that eating my body and drinking my blood stuff he was talking about the whole Universe being the body of Christ, the Whole or the One (whatever you want to call it really, as long as you get the meaning) and that tearing it apart and devouring it to sustain your individual identity is the cause of all the world's suffering.

Huh? Even less intelligent creatures live by that order. It's not separate from nature, it's part of the whole process-life feeds on life. The notion that this is somehow "wrong" (not in the moral sense but in that it thickens the veil between perception and truth) is as unnatural as the tools we've crafted to aid our survival-and those are arguably within the bounds of nature as all we did is take materials on this planet and repurpose them to meet our needs.

We've let things go out of balance because of fear and greed but it doesn't make the things we've done into the greatest of evils, it means the process is playing out and how we choose to see it will determine the outcome. Rejection and condemnation of our nature, our drives and ambitions, won't better the world. Integrating it into a more balanced paradigm will.

There's a reason things have ended up like this and it's not because what set it into motion is bad, we've simply been shortsighted.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

You could start the same way as me, if you wanted Stick up two or three thousand posters and I guarantee you'll have enough paying English students to live on. If you wanted you could get even more students and have enough to help your family out too.

Hey Andrew.

Just wondering what you charge for hourly rates as a teacher?

I've just written down the advertisement for doing the same thing as you from my home, and thought maybe $30 an hour is reasonable but just wanted to check what others are charging.

I realize the spanish peso will be different, but if you could help me translate it to dollars that would be good.

[Andrew Gubb]

We use euros now I charge a pretty low rate: 17.50€ per hour as a private teacher (25$). A common price is 20 or 25€ (28 or 35). When doing groups you can charge less per person while earning more per session; I've seen some group sessions going at 5€ per hour. I currently do a couple of small groups at 22€ an hour.

[Andrew Gubb]

oh wait. You live in Australia.

Google does a quick money conversion. Ask me if you need help with it.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

oh wait. You live in Australia.

Google does a quick money conversion. Ask me if you need help with it.

Ok thanks for that. I totally forgot about the euro...how's that for vague.

[Andrew Gubb]

Welcome

[Andrew Gubb]

Clarification: I said the figures in Euros and American dollars. That's why maybe you needed the google conversion thingy.

[elucidate]

Gotcha. I worked that out eventually.