What would be a realistic way towards legally shutting down cruel meat factories?

[Agota]

I was talking with my friend who is obsessed with organic food. She eats meat, but what impressed me was that she is much more conscious about her food choices than many vegetarians or vegans I know, since she gets most of her food from organic farms and very rarely buys something in supermarkets. She made a very good point that it would be much more effective to push organic meat as opposed to pushing vegetarianism or veganism: it's not very realistic that most people will become vegetarians in our lifetime, but animals and people would be much better off if majority of meat eaters would switch to organic meat as opposed to one coming from those horrible meat factories. I'm a vegetarian mainly for ethical reasons, but I think it's a great point, because although killing is killing, there's a big difference whether 10 cows were raised in horrible conditions, fed drugs and tortured and half of the meat is wasted anyway or 1 cow was raised in a nice organic farm, was able to walk freely, fed with natural food, put down and all meat that could be used was used. That got me thinking is there a way to legally shut down meat factories over the course of few decades, meaning that only organic farms where animals are treated well would be legal?

Quick ideas:

There would have to be work on two main things:

1. Making meat factories illegal.

There could be three main points used in that:

- Cruelty.

- Putting consumer health in danger because of all the crap animals are being fed.

- Enviromental impact. Meat factories are one of the major contributors to pollution worldwide.

2. Making organic farms more popular.

There are two main problems:

- People are not aware what's happening in meat factories, therefore they don't see the difference between organic meat and the one from factory. There should be campaign of raising awareness of the differences or something like that.

- People can't afford to buy organic food. There should be a way to make organic meat at least a little bit cheaper, as well as other organic products.

I think it should be possible to make such change over the course of few decades, especially if education system would be involved and campaigns about factory meat vs. organic meat would reach kids.

That's just my quick thoughts, I didn't really think that through, I wanted to share this idea and ask for your opinions on that

[James Fletcher]

Just recently in Australia the government has suspended exporting live cattle to Indonesia after video footage was released of the cruel treatment the animals receive in Indonesian abattoirs.

Since this will force up Indonesian beef prices by a third, and conversely, the cease of trade has cost Australian cattle farmers A$350 million - not to mention the video has been seen by millions of Australians and is affecting beef sales domestically - it is certainly in both parties' interests to find a solution; namely ending the cruelty.

So I think the lesson here is that awareness, using modern media, will be a powerful tool.

[lock]

people are pursuing the outcome whatever they're doing```

so although i quite agree with what you say,the profits that the businessmen and the economical efficiency cumstomers buy things are leading us to choose the wrong thing

[Curtis2011]

Stop eating meat.

[lock]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

Stop eating meat.

just joking:the question is who will listen to you

in this field,the north korea is leading us to the prosperity of no meat

[JSB]

The most effective way would be to find a more economically efficient process that is not as cruel. If you can produce the same amount of meat for less cost, that is what most people will eat; this is why the factory system is so prevalent: it is productive and efficient. As a downside, it is cruel, environmentally unsustainable, and also produces unhealthy meat.

There is growing demand for meat worldwide as more people become affluent enough to afford it. Personally, I believe that at this point, barring major social disruption/collapse, the only thing that could possibly replace modern industrial meat production is "artificial" grown directly from cloned muscle cells, and only if it becomes possible to produce cheaply.

In vitro meat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

Stop eating meat.

I don't eat meat

[alphamind]

Burn down the factories, it's as realistic and sure-fire as you can get

[Agota]

Originally Posted by alphamind

Burn down the factories, it's as realistic and sure-fire as you can get

I was talking about making factories like that illegal, not about destroying them physically.

[alphamind]

Originally Posted by Agota

I was talking about making factories like that illegal, not about destroying them physically.

I know, but as much as an animal lover I am like yourself I can't see that happening soon. We are a minority and people love their meat, plus there is no gain for the government to interfere is there?

That doesn't mean I'm not on your side though.

[Agota]

Media can influence the attitudes people have towards factory meat and after watching a video about cruelty used in factories and being presented with an affordable option from an organic farm where animals are treated well, people will choose organic meat.

Government would need to interfere once the issues of cruelty, health hazards and environmental impact become wide known and masses of people protests against it.

The current problem is lack of awareness what meat factories are really doing, not only to animals, but to people and environment and lack of affordable organic options.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Agota

I was talking with my friend who is obsessed with organic food. She eats meat, but what impressed me was that she is much more conscious about her food choices than many vegetarians or vegans I know, since she gets most of her food from organic farms and very rarely buys something in supermarkets.

Huh, sounds just like my mom.

She made a very good point that it would be much more effective to push organic meat as opposed to pushing vegetarianism or veganism: it's not very realistic that most people will become vegetarians in our lifetime, but animals and people would be much better off if majority of meat eaters would switch to organic meat as opposed to one coming from those horrible meat factories. I'm a vegetarian mainly for ethical reasons, but I think it's a great point, because although killing is killing, there's a big difference whether 10 cows were raised in horrible conditions, fed drugs and tortured and half of the meat is wasted anyway or 1 cow was raised in a nice organic farm, was able to walk freely, fed with natural food, put down and all meat that could be used was used. That got me thinking is there a way to legally shut down meat factories over the course of few decades, meaning that only organic farms where animals are treated well would be legal?

Totally true.

Quick ideas:

There would have to be work on two main things:

1. Making meat factories illegal.

There could be three main points used in that:

- Cruelty.

- Putting consumer health in danger because of all the crap animals are being fed.

- Enviromental impact. Meat factories are one of the major contributors to pollution worldwide.

It really is a public health issue. Factory farms massive abuse of antibiotics is probably the biggest driver of antibiotic resistant diseases, because it's on such an enormous scale. It's really a big deal, because drug resistant bugs means more human deaths and less affordable drugs when we do develop something to treat the "super bugs". The extra strong antibiotics have more side effects, are less effective at treating the super bugs as normal antibiotics are at treating regular infections, are more dangerous (on some there is a warning that if you experience certain symptoms to get immediate medical attention because it could be fatal; even a small overdose is potentially fatal on many of these drugs as well), and are much more expensive.

Banning the abuse of antibiotics would render factory farming at it's current ridiculous scale and cruelty impossible. They are a necessity in the horrid conditions so that the animals don't die before they can be slaughtered.

You make good points as well, although there are a lot of people who "don't buy" that animal cruelty is a valid concept or that the environmental impact is significant. And simple poor quality meat is often considered just an issue for the free market (of all the quips, I happen to think this is the most valid, but there are other thing render this issue moot imo).

2. Making organic farms more popular.

There are two main problems:

- People are not aware what's happening in meat factories, therefore they don't see the difference between organic meat and the one from factory. There should be campaign of raising awareness of the differences or something like that.

- People can't afford to buy organic food. There should be a way to make organic meat at least a little bit cheaper, as well as other organic products.

I think it should be possible to make such change over the course of few decades, especially if education system would be involved and campaigns about factory meat vs. organic meat would reach kids.

That's just my quick thoughts, I didn't really think that through, I wanted to share this idea and ask for your opinions on that

If the first objective was to be achieved with a measure of success, alternatives would become more popular (and cheaper) inherently. The bureaucracy of getting an organic certification does drive up the price considerably (at least in my country), so that could be a point to work on.

Though if you got rid of factory farms, the organic label wouldn't be quite as necessary, because it all would be better.

I think there's already a lot of good awareness-raising work being done--but I'd like to see more being done by someone not-PETA --they put people off! And there really should be something done about our obsession with pushing cow's milk on kids, especially in schools.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

I think there's already a lot of good awareness-raising work being done--but I'd like to see more being done by someone not-PETA --they put people off!

The problem with PETA seems to be that they fanaticism blinds them and their actions put most people off. I think it's very possible to make meat factories illegal, since the reason it's legal is that most people are unaware of what's happening there. I believe that if approached strategically, this problem can be solved in few decades if not even faster, assuming people with different areas of expertise, such as laws, education, business and PR would unite in order to take factories down.

P.S. Very good point on antibiotic drugs

P.P.S. This is one of the reasons that I think that lightworkers should flush Lightworker's syndrome down the toilet and focus more on acummulating wealth. Projects like that need funding and the best way to get the money is to make it yourself and then put them into worthwhile causes. One billionaire who is a lightworker can do a lot, imagine if ten or twenty of them would unite for one cause, taking meat factories down for example. That would really speed things up.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Agota

The problem with PETA seems to be that they fanaticism blinds them and their actions put most people off. I think it's very possible to make meat factories illegal, since the reason it's legal is that most people are unaware of what's happening there. I believe that if approached strategically, this problem can be solved in few decades if not even faster, assuming people with different areas of expertise, such as laws, education, business and PR would unite in order to take factories down.

I agree about Peta, but I think one big reason this doesn't get talked about is not because people don't have access to the information, but because it's so unpleasant. It's chilling and gross, and many people get some food out of it. I definitely think a well done education campaign could do a lot though. But they'd have to be the opposite of Peta: instead of sensationalistic and dogmatic; they'd be factual and attempt to appeal to a wide audience.

P.S. Very good point on antibiotic drugs

I really think that could be a good angle of attack policy wise, because it's valid in and of itself; and well documented to cause effects that very few people think are good or neutral or unimportant.

P.P.S. This is one of the reasons that I think that lightworkers should flush Lightworker's syndrome down the toilet and focus more on acummulating wealth. Projects like that need funding and the best way to get the money is to make it yourself and then put them into worthwhile causes. One billionaire who is a lightworker can do a lot, imagine if ten or twenty of them would unite for one cause, taking meat factories down for example. That would really speed things up.

I've been thinking about this recently.

Though, in all seriousness, I think it's better to work for more meaningful democracy than focus on getting good people rich (and therefore putting them in power).

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Though, in all seriousness, I think it's better to work for more meaningful democracy than focus on getting good people rich (and therefore putting them in power).

I think it's a personal perspective that could make a big difference if more people would adopt it. Most light workers spend their time whining how evil are people in power or rich people, yet it would be more efficient to get in power yourself and sort things out. This is what I said in wealth re-distribution thread: wouldn't it be better to stop focusing on re-distributing wealth of rich people and start focusing on becoming rich yourself and re-distributing your own wealth in any way you want.

..we'll see how my plans will work out in 20 years time

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Agota

I think it's a personal perspective that could make a big difference if more people would adopt it. Most light workers spend their time whining how evil are people in power or rich people, yet it would be more efficient to get in power yourself and sort things out. This is what I said in wealth re-distribution thread: wouldn't it be better to stop focusing on re-distributing wealth of rich people and start focusing on becoming rich yourself and re-distributing your own wealth in any way you want.

I don't want to derail the thread to much, but even the wealth of your average self made rich person (say, a few million dollars) is very small compared to the wealth of a country or just the cost of living of a significant amount of people--structural changes have a deeper, broader, and longer lasting effect. Though being rich certainly doesn't hurt if you want to get those changes made!

..we'll see how my plans will work out in 20 years time

[garentee]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

H
If the first objective was to be achieved with a measure of success, alternatives would become more popular (and cheaper) inherently. The bureaucracy of getting an organic certification does drive up the price considerably (at least in my country), so that could be a point to work on.

Though if you got rid of factory farms, the organic label wouldn't be quite as necessary, because it all would be better.

I think there's already a lot of good awareness-raising work being done--but I'd like to see more being done by someone not-PETA --they put people off! And there really should be something done about our obsession with pushing cow's milk on kids, especially in schools.

Getting rid of the factory farms is a good idea though how to do it without a significant growth in non factory farms? We need more people to get into farming. As for why organic or just small scale agriculture is more expensive has to do with the fact that the price (sometimes) reflects the true cost of raising that food...Certification is not that expensive.. unless you account for the time spent getting all sorts of paperwork together... even so.. the factory model and the practices have gotten into some of the larger scale conventional farms.. If you want to be sure about what you are eating get to know your farmer..

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Agota

I think it's a personal perspective that could make a big difference if more people would adopt it. Most light workers spend their time whining how evil are people in power or rich people, yet it would be more efficient to get in power yourself and sort things out. This is what I said in wealth re-distribution thread: wouldn't it be better to stop focusing on re-distributing wealth of rich people and start focusing on becoming rich yourself and re-distributing your own wealth in any way you want.

..we'll see how my plans will work out in 20 years time

This is exactly what I say as a darkworker and it's part of why I say we ****ing need each other.

Power tactics prove difficult for lightworkers when they don't have someone to help them out, the same way we tend to go off balance if we try to integrate the light without a solid example. The specific hows depend on individual balance and circumstance, but there's one thing I know: lightworkers would be way more effective if they either took our power structures by the horns (meaning take it over themselves) or they chose which darkworkers they'd push to the top in their place. Even one that isn't particularly ethical in the general sense will get the job done as long as there's a strong code of honor in back of his actions. After all, you do not bite the hand that feeds.

That is not to say there's no worth in protest or argument, but you can't destroy power structures-indeed entire societal constructs-by focusing only on creation or change. Sometimes you need a lob a few sticks of dynamite, or set the whole thing on fire. That's what we do, but hell-we're only gonna **** it up if you guys aren't there. I'd rather work with than against ya. In fact that's a big part of remedying the imbalances that have caused all these problems in the first place.