Is the United States falling apart?

[BillyTheAdult]

Just what the title says.

[James81]

Yes.

Tectonic plates are constantly shifting on the west coast, and soon Los Angeles will be an island.

[BillyTheAdult]

YouTube - Tool - Ænema [uncut version - hq - fullscreen]

[LostMyMap]

I walk at Torrey Pines a lot where you can see the rocks on the beach, sometimes boulder size, that occasionally fall from the cliffs as the natural forces of erosion to their work. Other than that, no we are not falling apart.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

In my arrogant and paradoxically humble all the while probably completely mistaken and misinformed opinion, yes the U.S. is falling apart.

[Alstar]

Welcome to planet Earth, where the locals are convinced that the world/their tiny shard of the world is in a constant state of falling apart. "Just another 10 or 15 years and this place will have gone to hell..." they grumble, blissfully unaware that 15 years ago someone was saying the exact same thing.

[AlmostGodess]

I hope not.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by Alstar

Welcome to planet Earth, where the locals are convinced that the world/their tiny shard of the world is in a constant state of falling apart. "Just another 10 or 15 years and this place will have gone to hell..." they grumble, blissfully unaware that 15 years ago someone was saying the exact same thing.

People in ancient Rome were probably 'grumbling' about Rome falling apart while it was actually happening. People express discontent so that they might change it, not just for the sake of complaining.

[James81]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

People in ancient Rome were probably 'grumbling' about Rome falling apart while it was actually happening. People express discontent so that they might change it, not just for the sake of complaining.

Grumbling about the nation falling apart is not changing it. I figure the people of Rome realize that now.

If there are areas of our nation falling apart, that you are are discontent with that is, then be the person who spearheads the change in the area that you think is falling apart.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by James81

Grumbling about the nation falling apart is not changing it. I figure the people of Rome realize that now.

If there are areas of our nation falling apart, that you are are discontent with that is, then be the person who spearheads the change in the area that you think is falling apart.

Honestly James, I'm mulling over how I'd go about doing that right now. That is, before I end up like just another grumbling Roman

[Justin Mazza]

A house of cards will eventually crumble.

While most Americans have been busy with their careers, social networking, and general over-all apathy our Government has been doing back room deals affecting your health, well-being, and money.

Let's face it, most Americans don't have a clue what to do about it.

The last thing that you would want to do is violently protest because that would just lead to further tyrannical measures. We need to get creative here.

We didn't incarnate on planet earth to be oppressed, harassed , and have our money being parasited off at every turn.

I'm starting to feel like a host to some type of energetic vampirism here.

[Brutha]

People in ancient Rome were probably 'grumbling' about Rome falling apart while it was actually happening. People express discontent so that they might change it, not just for the sake of complaining.

I don't think that's a very good description of the thought in ancient Rome.
They don't had the notion of history that progress in a way where their state might wane.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by Brutha

I don't think that's a very good description of the thought in ancient Rome.
They don't had the notion of history that progress in a way where their state might wane.

Good point, nowadays where everyone is communicating so fast, most of us have access to the internet so we're aware of potential instability.

[GeorgeMagister]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

Good point, nowadays where everyone is communicating so fast, most of us have access to the internet so we're aware of potential instability.

I think that access to global communication helps, but it doesn't help everyone. Historical and regional provincialism exists, in spite of the person being able to know better, in spite of access to historical hindsight, simply because they refuse to believe that it's possible that their sovereignty may fall or become something else one day. I'll wager that many haven't even seriously considered that their nation won't be around forever.

It's the same kind of single-mindedness that manifests in the opposite manner, when it comes to members of every generation thinking that:

1. A cataclysm will change life as we know it.
2. Jesus is coming in their lifetime.

[Alstar]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

People in ancient Rome were probably 'grumbling' about Rome falling apart while it was actually happening. People express discontent so that they might change it, not just for the sake of complaining.

People complain about things falling apart so often that once every so often, they statistically have to be right sometimes.

And yes, 99% of the time it is for the sake of complaining. People aren't made unhappy by circumstances beyond their control; they look for reasons to justify their unhappiness and then paint the whole "it's out of my control, woe is me" helpless victim picture. And really, the reasons people come up with in this age as to why things are "falling apart" are pretty weak, considering we just emerged from a century with 100+ wars in it, two of them being the largest in human history.

I've come to the conclusion that people just want to believe things are "falling apart" because it adds an element of uncertain excitement to their otherwise stable, boring lives. It sounds crude, but I don't see any evidence to the contrary.

In other words, things are fine. The world sucks, but it's not in any immediate major threat.

[mrthejazz]

Originally Posted by Alstar

Welcome to planet Earth, where the locals are convinced that the world/their tiny shard of the world is in a constant state of falling apart. "Just another 10 or 15 years and this place will have gone to hell..." they grumble, blissfully unaware that 15 years ago someone was saying the exact same thing.

And they were right.

[LostMyMap]

Questions like these are really good at sorting the 'glass half empty' and 'glass half full' people isn't it?

[Le Roi]

I think it is possible to adopt a certain belief system about how things should be, and then look at the US and feel that it is falling apart. The evidence will clearly support that.

The opposite is just as possible -adopt a different belief system and you'll see so much evidence the US is doing awesome.

I've spent years in one camp and then the other.

Now, I don't know. It doesn't really matter. The US is so complicated, our lives so short to really get to experience countries falling apart that we don't have much predicting capabilities. Sure you can point at history books-but you yourself wasn't there. It's not like you've personally experienced a country falling apart regularly that you can recognize which factors to pay attention and which not to pay attention to.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

Just what the title says.

Socrates pointed out thousands of years ago that a Democracy was an inherently flawed form of government, because it gives an equal vote to both good and bad-natured people.

Unfortunately I would have to agree with him. I don't think our Democracy will last. It does seem like the US is eroding slowly as time goes on. I just wonder what the world will be like after it fades in power.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Questions like these are really good at sorting the 'glass half empty' and 'glass half full' people isn't it?

I can too be a happy cynic!

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

Socrates pointed out thousands of years ago that a Democracy was an inherently flawed form of government, because it gives an equal vote to both good and bad-natured people.

Unfortunately I would have to agree with him. I don't think our Democracy will last. It does seem like the US is eroding slowly as time goes on. I just wonder what the world will be like after it fades in power.

This is where I see the glass as 'half full'. Though I'm totally cynical about the US falling apart I am fascinated with the possibility that void leaves.

[WarrenG]

Big debt, printing lots of money, weak exports, economy crashing again, economies in the east growing, possibility that (due to the influence of aforementioned easterners) the dollar will lose place as world currency/reserve, huge dependence on foreign oil, oil slowly running out/increasing in price, social system that is hugely dependent on oil generally (little renewable energy, people unprepared to live without it, things spread far apart), climate change, pissing off the world.

Stock up on your supplies, learn to grow and forage food, get to know your neighbours, learn a martial art, get a gun (sorry you already have one), get some solar panels (or preferably a bicycle hooked to a generator - solar panels are visible and will make you a target), get to know your neighbours even better, learn to meditate, be ready and able to get out of the 'burbs and head for the hills at a moment's notice.

Good luck!

[Brutha]

It's the same kind of single-mindedness that manifests in the opposite manner, when it comes to members of every generation thinking that:
A cataclysm will change life as we know it.

Given the amount of time I spend on the internet my life is radically different than the life of someone who lived three decades ago.

Good point, nowadays where everyone is communicating so fast, most of us have access to the internet so we're aware of potential instability.

It's not only about communication. It's also about a certain idea of history that Hegel basically invented.
If you think about how people of another culture and time would react you have to understand their world view. If you assume that they share your basic understanding of the world you are in for trouble.

Socrates pointed out thousands of years ago that a Democracy was an inherently flawed form of government, because it gives an equal vote to both good and bad-natured people.

The political system of modern Western states is very different than the Democracy of Socrates time.
We have a lot of players in our society. We have publically traded corporations, NGO's, political parties, airplanes, independent judges, the printing press, TV and the internet.
All of those effect the way our democracy works.

An understanding that ignores these factors is shallow. Our system is a lot more complex than letting people vote in their self interest for specific issues.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by Brutha

It's not only about communication. It's also about a certain idea of history that Hegel basically invented.
If you think about how people of another culture and time would react you have to understand their world view. If you assume that they share your basic understanding of the world you are in for trouble.

Come on Brutha, I don't think that way. I didn't say the only thing separating me from ancient Romans is my internet access. I just didn't mention all the things that mentally separate me from an ancient Roman because 1) that would be impossible because I don't know all the things mentally separating me from an ancient Roman and 2) it would just be unnecessary to do so.

[JDuff]

Unrestrained greed and free-markets are what is ruining the US. The former led to the banking crises, all the debt for which has been loaded onto YOU, the taxpayer. Perhaps the banks should pay back their fair share for what they caused?

Regarding the latter, how can anyone promote free trade and then complain about high unemployment and poor working conditions, and loss of jobs to developing countries? That is exactly what Capitalism entails.

Perhaps if the wealth was distributed a little fairer, people wouldn't need to rely on debt to keep a roof over their heads. Money should go to the wealth creators (Average Joe slaving 50 hour weeks) rather than multi-mansion champagne sipping Donald, who gets rich off the hard work of everyone else in some giant pyramid scheme. Mr Trump couldn't even handle a month doing 12 hour shifts in a burger joint. The more wealth you concentrate in the hands of fewer and fewer people, the worse it will get.

The wealth creators are not the super rich - they don't even have to work, and for them to sit around plotting to lower their taxes, in bed with the banks and the oil companies, whilst millions (most ordinary Americans) are living poorly, is disgusting.

[LostMyMap]

Now here's someone who's glass is darned near empty!

Originally Posted by JDuff

Unrestrained greed and free-markets are what is ruining the US. The former led to the banking crises, all the debt for which has been loaded onto YOU, the taxpayer. Perhaps the banks should pay back their fair share for what they caused?

Regarding the latter, how can anyone promote free trade and then complain about high unemployment and poor working conditions, and loss of jobs to developing countries? That is exactly what Capitalism entails.

Perhaps if the wealth was distributed a little fairer, people wouldn't need to rely on debt to keep a roof over their heads. Money should go to the wealth creators (Average Joe slaving 50 hour weeks) rather than multi-mansion champagne sipping Donald, who gets rich off the hard work of everyone else in some giant pyramid scheme. Mr Trump couldn't even handle a month doing 12 hour shifts in a burger joint. The more wealth you concentrate in the hands of fewer and fewer people, the worse it will get.

The wealth creators are not the super rich - they don't even have to work, and for them to sit around plotting to lower their taxes, in bed with the banks and the oil companies, whilst millions (most ordinary Americans) are living poorly, is disgusting.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Now here's someone who's glass is darned near empty!

Hey, optimism isn't always the appropriate response.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by JDuff

Unrestrained greed and free-markets are what is ruining the US. The former led to the banking crises, all the debt for which has been loaded onto YOU, the taxpayer. Perhaps the banks should pay back their fair share for what they caused?

Regarding the latter, how can anyone promote free trade and then complain about high unemployment and poor working conditions, and loss of jobs to developing countries? That is exactly what Capitalism entails.

Perhaps if the wealth was distributed a little fairer, people wouldn't need to rely on debt to keep a roof over their heads. Money should go to the wealth creators (Average Joe slaving 50 hour weeks) rather than multi-mansion champagne sipping Donald, who gets rich off the hard work of everyone else in some giant pyramid scheme. Mr Trump couldn't even handle a month doing 12 hour shifts in a burger joint. The more wealth you concentrate in the hands of fewer and fewer people, the worse it will get.

The wealth creators are not the super rich - they don't even have to work, and for them to sit around plotting to lower their taxes, in bed with the banks and the oil companies, whilst millions (most ordinary Americans) are living poorly, is disgusting.

That's not inherent to capitalism. In fact the U.S. doesn't have capitalism, it has socialism for the wealthy. This is a major corruption of the intended system and it turns one of the most functional and fair economic models into a tool of oppression.

You talk of redistributing wealth but I don't see that as the great savior. There's a reason socialism and communism both failed and a big part of that is human nature. It stifles creativity and ambition, and any economic model which flat-out rejects greed will never work. We get further working with our lesser impulses than we do by merely curbing them.

I'd blame that for a lot of our current problems, in fact. People have no idea what they're worth and they won't demand it. As long as there are those who will not stand up for themselves you'll have tyrants whether they're dictators or corporations or bureaucracies.

I don't doubt that capitalism is an imperfect system and there's some way to improve upon it but I think whatever replaces it will have to draw a lot from capitalistic thinking. For all its flaws (and despite how broken it's become) it is the only system to my knowledge which enables people to ascend the slums by their own efforts if they have the wit and will to do so. It's not been often in our history that such an opportunity has been available to so many.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Hey, optimism isn't always the appropriate response.

I completely disagree. I think the only way important issues get solved is with optimism. I also think that unbridled negativity is never helpful, and if you break it down ( as in the jduff post) it's usually based on some really out-there assertions on 'the truth'.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Stock up on your supplies, learn to grow and forage food, get to know your neighbours, learn a martial art, get a gun (sorry you already have one), get some solar panels (or preferably a bicycle hooked to a generator - solar panels are visible and will make you a target), get to know your neighbours even better, learn to meditate, be ready and able to get out of the 'burbs and head for the hills at a moment's notice.

Good luck!

Hmmm... I knew it... the zombies are coming...