Bin Laden photos will NOT be released...

[James81]

Obama will not release photo of bin Laden - Yahoo! News

I'm sure there'll be more in depth coverage of this as it becomes older news, but how does it make you feel to know that in order to believe that this happened, you have to trust explicitly what your government has told you happened without a shred of proof besides word of mouth?

[beast]

I doubt pictures would make any non-believers start to believe.

Anyways, I'm not sure how I feel about all this, but I think releasing pictures would be tacky.

[James81]

Originally Posted by beast

I doubt pictures would make any non-believers start to believe, anyways.

Anyways, I'm not sure how I feel about all this, but I think releasing pictures would be tacky.

It would make me believe.

I need something beyond the media telling me that it happened. I mean, we don't even have a current picture of Obama right now. Nothing to go on besides someone telling us "Ok, this happened."

I'm not saying that it *didn't* happen, but there is lingering doubt there for me that photos would make go away.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by beast

I doubt pictures would make any non-believers start to believe, anyways.

Anyways, I'm not sure how I feel about all this, but I think releasing pictures would be tacky.

Most of the world is already calling ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, yet you think that releasing them would be 'tacky' with billions of people already demanding proof?

We can handle brains on the sand. Maybe you can't, but some of us in the real world want to see proof that bloody and cruel occupations of two different countries and gross violations of privacy rights and violations of the American constitution had at least some justification to them.

That said if this doesn't cause a revolution in the U.S. the people pulling these strings might as well tag all our ears and start using us as slaves, just to see if we go along with that too.

[Le Roi]

Originally Posted by James81

Obama will not release photo of bin Laden - Yahoo! News

I'm sure there'll be more in depth coverage of this as it becomes older news, but how does it make you feel to know that in order to believe that this happened, you have to trust explicitly what your government has told you happened without a shred of proof besides word of mouth?

I don't mind.

First, the US Goverment, if it wished to produce a fake dead picture of a guy they would claim to be Osama, I'm sure they easily could with all the dead Arabs they produce in Iraq and Afganistan. Therefore, if the Government wanted to pretend to have killed Osama, they easily could produce all the fake evidence to prove it. Releasing or not a real picture wouldn't change things.

Second, it would be against the US government''s interest to lie about killing Osama. If Osama didn't really die, but is still out there, then it would prove fatally (election-wise) embarrassing to the Obama administration if a recent video of him surfaced.

If the US Government is holding him captive while declaring him dead, then it would likewise prove to be embarrassing if/when word of this gets out. I don't see it to the US Government's interest to hold him secretly alive while claiming he is dead. It's better in the US Government's interest to shoot him even if he wasn't a danger to those capturing him (as it seems to be what happened).

So, I don't really have any reason to believe the US government would lie on this one issue, even though they lie about many other issues. So, doesn't bother me not to see his dead picture with bullet holes. Might be better that way anyway.

[Le Roi]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

Most of the world is already calling ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, yet you think that releasing them would be 'tacky' with billions of people already demanding proof?

Saying "Most of the world is already calling it ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥" is highly exagerated. Maybe most of your world is calling it a lie. But most of the world out there believe the US Government when they say Osama was killed. Probably 97%.

[beast]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

Most of the world is already calling ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, yet you think that releasing them would be 'tacky' with billions of people already demanding proof?

We can handle brains on the sand. Maybe you can't, but some of us in the real world want to see proof that bloody and cruel occupations of two different countries and gross violations of privacy rights and violations of the American constitution had at least some justification to them.

That said if this doesn't cause a revolution in the U.S. the people pulling these strings might as well tag all our ears and start using us as slaves, just to see if we go along with that too.

Your condescension is repulsive, and I am tempted to not respond to you at all. I have no idea how someone can simultaneously be so uninformed about so much and so arrogant about those same things.

Yes, I think it would be tacky - largely because a photo would not prove anything. You said yourself that a photo would not make you a believer.

For the record, I can handle seeing pictures of corpses, thank you. And Osama's death doesn't justify either war for me.

[Le Roi]

Originally Posted by James81

I'm not saying that it *didn't* happen, but there is lingering doubt there for me that photos would make go away.

Why, did you know him personally in life, so you'd recognize a body and face of him with bullets in it?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Le Roi

Why, did you know him personally in life, so you'd recognize a body and face of him with bullets in it?

Well, the rabbit holes go deeper, but that's outside the scope of this thread.

I am also open to the possibility that Bin Laden is just some guy in a costume and isn't *really* a real anybody. I don't put a LOT of faith in that theory, but knowing the lies the government feeds us, I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility either.

Given what he did, I think we should put his spattered head on a stick and drive it down the middle of New York city in one of the biggest parties that city has ever seen.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by beast

Your condescension is repulsive, and I am tempted to not respond to you at all. I have no idea how someone can simultaneously be so uninformed about so much and so arrogant about those same things.

Yes, I think it would be tacky - largely because a photo would not prove anything. You said yourself that a photo would not make you a believer.

For the record, I can handle seeing pictures of corpses, thank you. And Osama's death doesn't justify either war for me.

I am not being condescending, I am simply stating the truth. If it bothers you to hear it then you need to reassess how you view this issue. Millions of people died over this occupation, beast. The civilian casualties alone are enough to make decent human beings sick to their stomachs. THE LEAST THEY COULD DO IS GIVE US PROOF THAT THIS OCCUPATION WAS NOT BASED ON A ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ PREMISE.

YouTube - AMAZING SPEECH BY WAR VETERAN

Many US soldiers are already appalled at what they've done or seen being done in Iraq. Even if Osama's death is real, which I don't think it is (I think he died much earlier and the whole chasing of Osama was a false premise to invade a foreign country to corner the market), there are still two countries being put through hell by the US military. We're already invading a third, Libya. When do you think this will end?

I am not being condescending, I am pissed off. Incredibly pissed off. The actions of the US in recent times are outrageous and despicable. That you see that as arrogance is mind boggling to me.

[LostMyMap]

I agree with this assessment. If Bush didn't take an opportunity to lie about it, I don't really see why Obama would.

I was going back and forth about the value of releasing a photo or not. I guess the White House was too. I agree it would have been tacky, but I also probably would have looked.

Originally Posted by Le Roi

I don't mind.

First, the US Goverment, if it wished to produce a fake dead picture of a guy they would claim to be Osama, I'm sure they easily could with all the dead Arabs they produce in Iraq and Afganistan. Therefore, if the Government wanted to pretend to have killed Osama, they easily could produce all the fake evidence to prove it. Releasing or not a real picture wouldn't change things.

Second, it would be against the US government''s interest to lie about killing Osama. If Osama didn't really die, but is still out there, then it would prove fatally (election-wise) embarrassing to the Obama administration if a recent video of him surfaced.

If the US Government is holding him captive while declaring him dead, then it would likewise prove to be embarrassing if/when word of this gets out. I don't see it to the US Government's interest to hold him secretly alive while claiming he is dead. It's better in the US Government's interest to shoot him even if he wasn't a danger to those capturing him (as it seems to be what happened).

So, I don't really have any reason to believe the US government would lie on this one issue, even though they lie about many other issues. So, doesn't bother me not to see his dead picture with bullet holes. Might be better that way anyway.

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by Le Roi

Second, it would be against the US government''s interest to lie about killing Osama. If Osama didn't really die, but is still out there, then it would prove fatally (election-wise) embarrassing to the Obama administration if a recent video of him surfaced.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Le Roi

I don't see it to the US Government's interest to hold him secretly alive while claiming he is dead. It's better in the US Government's interest to shoot him even if he wasn't a danger to those capturing him (as it seems to be what happened).

Well, it all went too fast for my taste. I am surprised with the US government. I expected they would put him into something like Abu Ghraib for 20 years...

Originally Posted by Le Roi

Saying "Most of the world is already calling it ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥" is highly exagerated. Maybe most of your world is calling it a lie. But most of the world out there believe the US Government when they say Osama was killed. Probably 97%.

If he is dead or not is pretty irrelevant. It remains a publicity stunt IMO....

Originally Posted by James81

Given what he did, I think we should put his spattered head on a stick and drive it down the middle of New York city in one of the biggest parties that city has ever seen.

Didn't that happen??? Well, a 21st century version of it, I mean.

[Sfumato]

Well 400 million people watched the Iraq Government Hang Saddam Hussein, so ya on lousy picture of him even without all the blood and goo, would probably have curtailed much of the debate.

[beast]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

I am not being condescending, I am simply stating the truth. If it bothers you to hear it then you need to reassess how you view this issue. Millions of people died over this occupation, beast. The civilian casualties alone are enough to make decent human beings sick to their stomachs. THE LEAST THEY COULD DO IS GIVE US PROOF THAT THIS OCCUPATION WAS NOT BASED ON A ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ PREMISE.

YouTube - AMAZING SPEECH BY WAR VETERAN

I am against both wars, and have been since the beginning. They were both based on ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ premises, and no photo of Osama will change that. Can we get back on topic now?

[Le Roi]

Originally Posted by beast

I am against both wars, and have been since the beginning. They were both based on ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ premises, and no photo of Osama will change that. Can we get back on topic now?

Yeah, same here. I was against both wars from the beginning, and I don't see how the question of Bin Laden being dead or not justify both wars.

[Le Roi]

The op of this thread has requested that this thread stay on topic in regard to Osama, and not go into the birther stuff. So, please respect that wish.

The thread has being split, and all the birth certificate stuff has being moved here: Birth Certificate Issue (Split from the Bin Laden Photo thread). You can feel free to continue the birth certificate discussion there.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by Le Roi

Yeah, same here. I was against both wars from the beginning, and I don't see how the question of Bin Laden being dead or not justify both wars.

It doesn't matter if we think that Bin Laden's death doesn't justify the two wars when asking for proof of his death, the fact of the matter is the US government used that premise to justify both wars thus we want proof that they were operating under a premise they at least believed was just. They must be held accountable for any potential deception.

[AlmostGodess]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

It doesn't matter if we think that Bin Laden's death doesn't justify the two wars when asking for proof of his death, the fact of the matter is the US government used that premise to justify both wars thus we want proof that they were operating under a premise they at least believed was just. They must be held accountable for any potential deception.

You know, this reminds me of times in history when decapitation was necessary as a proof of someone's death. Such practices speak not only about how much people trusted each other in those times, but also about the morals of those times.

What does making a show about a person's death say about us, as generation? Do you think we can define the notion of "respect" is going beyond death?

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by AlmostGodess

You know, this reminds me of times in history when decapitation was necessary as a proof of someone's death. Such practices speak not only about how much people trusted each other in those times, but also about the morals of those times.

What does making a show about a person's death say about us, as generation? Do you think we can define the notion of "respect" is going beyond death?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, other than "trust our government when they say they killed someone because it's immoral to do otherwise". There are perfectly legitimate reasons to not trust the statements made by the US government.

Asking for definitive proof to the end of a manhunt which involved us in a massive foreign occupation is by no means morally unsound. You want to talk about having no respect for death? Let's prove that the actions of the US government which killed millions of Iraqis and Afghan citizens didn't happen for nothing but corporate profits and conquest. I still won't agree with their way of dealing with it, but there's a massive difference between "we ****ed up really bad" and "we started a war under false pretenses to make tons of money".

[beast]

KV, you already stated in another thread that you don't believe in definitive proof. So I gotta ask - what, in your opinion, would be the benefit of them releasing these photos?

[AlmostGodess]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

there's a massive difference between "we ****ed up really bad" and "we started a war under false pretenses to make tons of money".

What is the relationship between this and the release of the picture?

[Justin Mazza]

My understanding is that Bin Laden has been dead for at least five years. He was diabetic or something like that. They (shadow government) have been saving the "we killed bin laden" card for a special occasion like now.

Obama's approval ratings are down and now they have this "fake" birth certificate that is being called out.

To get your focus off of one thing is to create an even bigger illusion to focus on.

Your all being lied to and duped. Wake up and smell the freaking coffee.

[AlmostGodess]

Originally Posted by Justin Mazza

To get your focus off of one thing is to create an even bigger illusion to focus on.

I think this is called a tit-for-tat in political science terms. I think Obama ranked pretty high before the release. Even if it is tit-for-tat, must be for another reason then popularity because it is too big a card to play it now.

[beast]

Nah, Obama's approval rating wasn't very good - but snopes is inconclusive re: Osama's alleged kidney failure.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by AlmostGodess

What is the relationship between this and the release of the picture?

Well to some people (not me, as beast pointed out, because I am of the opinion that 9/11 was a false flag operation) if Osama is proven to be dead and 9/11 was actually carried out by Al Qaeda etc etc then the US government simply took a really extreme and poorly thought out decision toward finding the purported criminal responsible for 9/11. If they won't even bother to justify their actions, which had seriously gruesome consequences, then they're disrespecting the millions of dead Iraqi citizens and living ones who have suffered under the occupation as well as all the American soldiers and civilians who suffered from this war.

[Brutha]

If the US Government is holding him captive while declaring him dead, then it would likewise prove to be embarrassing if/when word of this gets out. I don't see it to the US Government's interest to hold him secretly alive while claiming he is dead. It's better in the US Government's interest to shoot him even if he wasn't a danger to those capturing him (as it seems to be what happened).

Actually they do have an interest to hold him to get information from him about the way Al-Qaida is organised.

If they won't even bother to justify their actions, which had seriously gruesome consequences, then they're disrespecting the millions of dead Iraqi citizens and living ones who have suffered under the occupation as well as all the American soldiers and civilians who suffered from this war.

Confusion of countries? The stated reason to go to war with Iraq wasn't about Osama.

[Justin Mazza]

Killing Bin Laden during your term as President pretty much guarantees your re-election.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by beast

KV, you already stated in another thread that you don't believe in definitive proof. So I gotta ask - what, in your opinion, would be the benefit of them releasing these photos?

To justify their actions, basically. To show that they're willing to be held accountable for their invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq in order to find this one man. To me, there is no benefit. I don't benefit from seeing the dead pictures because I still want the people who chose to send us to war with Afghanistan and Iraq to be held accountable. The least they could do for the dead and suffering would be to try and explain themselves (even if it's possibly based on false premises), but they won't even do so much as prove that they've finished the deed. It just shows incredible arrogance on their part

[Le Roi]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Actually they do have an interest to hold him to get information from him about the way Al-Qaida is organised.

They can get a lot of information from all his computers and files they found in his house. I doubt they'd be able to get much out of him by interrogating him and all that torture stuff is not a possibility anymore.

However, even if that was the case, it doesn't outweight the disadvantage of lying about him being dead instead of alive and captured.

[Le Roi]

KV, If they released a picture of Osama, wouldn't you immediately claimed it was photoshopped and thus false?

Wouldn't you would go "If you knew anything about photoshopping, you'd realize this picture was photoshoped!"