Caution: There Are Children Reading This

[James81]

I saw this on another website (in reference to language) and it made me realize how often the idea of not swearing is supported by that statement.

Interesting enough, I've noticed that in my dealings with kids that they don't know that a certain word is a "bad word" unless we teach them that it is bad. And a bad word is only taught as bad because we all were taught that it was bad. And it's also a very cultural thing. You go out in America and call someone a "tosser" and they'll look at you like you have three heads. (Also notice that the word filter isn't sensoring that word. ) But if you go to England and call someone that, you better be prepared to fight (from what I understand from an English friend of mine from yesteryear ).

It made me wonder...if we stopped teaching our kids that certain words were bad, would there be any bad words in the future? Let's say that everybody agreed as one that no matter how hard it is to hear our children say those words, decided not to inform them that the word was bad...would there ever be words that needed sensoring?

It seems that we teach our children our gunk. And that to not teach them our gunk, we'd have to allow them to do things that we feel are uncomfortable without trying to "correct" them.

It seems our society is increasingly inefficient for making massive social change on any effective level. Surely there is a better way to evolve than "slowly over hundreds of generations"?

[Velorien]

I think words that "need" censoring will exist while they serve a purpose. We don't just swear as a mechanical reflex, like blinking. We swear as a communicative or expressive act, to indicate an emotion, for example. If you drop a heavy iron on your foot, you may find a swearword just the thing to say to express how you feel at that moment. Its taboo quality will be part of what makes it effective, as will your associations with similar contexts in which other people have used it.

That said, there are plenty of alternatives. One of my partners, when particularly pressed, uses the names of small, obscure English villages and the like. Another of my friends used to co-opt everyday words like "shirt" and use them as substitute swearwords. I very rarely swear myself, and never in others' earshot. But for most people, it is easier to use swearwords that already exist for that purpose within our culture, especially when the goal of swearing is more communicative (such as an insult).

(and, of course, which words function as swearwords is completely arbitrary and can be reshaped within a single generation - you're right there)

[LostMyMap]

Nobody, but nobody had a better routine on this than George Carlin:

YouTube - George Carlin--Incomplete List of Inpolite Words

I suppose I should warn you, that link is NOT SAFE FOR WORK or your children, your grandma, the Pope, or John Ashcroft.

[AlmostGodess]

What if exclude some words forever from the vocabulary? Like the words "bad words"?

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by James81

It made me wonder...if we stopped teaching our kids that certain words were bad, would there be any bad words in the future? Let's say that everybody agreed as one that no matter how hard it is to hear our children say those words, decided not to inform them that the word was bad...would there ever be words that needed sensoring?

I think that our language reflects our values and our material circumstances. I am trying to envision such a society (where kids are not taught that some words are 'bad'), but I can't really see one that would be realistic. We would have to live in a society without morals and I don't think that is possible. The word 'gay' is seen by many people in Canada today as being a 'bad word' (as in, we don't want our children using it as a pejorative word). This reflects our changing values towards homosexuality and the material conditions that made those changing values possible (urbanization, the entrenchment of our Charter into the constitution). I think there will always be conflict over language and I don't think that is a bad thing. Debating our use of words teaches us who we are within the context of our society.

Having said that, I do have a problem with people who refuse to look at their use of language and interrogate it. I don't understand why people have a problem with the word 'f-uck' or 's-it'. Most people will tell me that it is 'vulgar', but if I want to be 'vulgar' I have every right to be so.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I like your "tosser" reference. I've been reading a few Nick Hornby books and that word turns up quite a few times, and I have come to realize it is a bad word in England. I'd have to say that your right about good and bad words, and there is often a consensus on what is a good and bad word in certain cultures. Using the F word is usually the penultimate, or the C word for that matter. They are bad-sounding words, but no one word should ever be banned, not even the N word. It has to do with our right to free speech.

We should know which words offend which people and be careful not to say them in front of those people. A lot of these words have history that is very hurtful, and others are just plain offensive, although not to everyone. I try my best not to use offensive language because it is a sign of unsophistication, meaning I could not think of a better word to properly enunciate how I feel. But sometimes there in no other way to express ourselves than "******************************************!"

[Velorien]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I don't understand why people have a problem with the word 'f-uck' or 's-it'. Most people will tell me that it is 'vulgar', but if I want to be 'vulgar' I have every right to be so.

Presumably, they have a problem with these words because, within the English language, they are words mostly used to express anger and hostility, and to insult others. Look at it this way: suppose I said "**** the Jews; we should kill them all" in an environment where there are no Jews around. Even if you personally are not the target of this statement, you will still likely be offended by this expression of blind hatred, and if you are particularly sensitive, the very energy of hatred emanating from the statement may make you feel bad.

Maybe you have the right to be vulgar because you live in a country that legislates free speech. This doesn't mean you should be surprised when people have a problem with you using that right in what they consider an irresponsible way.

That aside, you make some interesting points. Thank you.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Velorien

suppose I said "**** the Jews; we should kill them all"

Now imagine that I'm doing a comedy set, and that I am doing a Mickey Mouse impression and I say that.

Totally different context, totally different tone, totally different energy. I use the same exact words you do, except I'm more like to garner laughter and and good energy vibe.

It's not the words themselves that make such a difference, but how they are used.

[Velorien]

Originally Posted by James81

Now imagine that I'm doing a comedy set, and that I am doing a Mickey Mouse impression and I say that.

Totally different context, totally different tone, totally different energy. I use the same exact words you do, except I'm more like to garner laughter and and good energy vibe.

It's not the words themselves that make such a difference, but how they are used.

Granted, but the effectiveness of your comedy set comes precisely from playing on the conventional way in which those words are used. It wouldn't be funny without the contrast between Mickey Mouse and racist hatred.

In other words, you're not attributing a new meaning to the words that cleanses them of their negative energy - you're using the fact that they have that negative energy for a positive purpose (and, like most such jokes, it would only work the once).

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

I like your "tosser" reference. I've been reading a few Nick Hornby books and that word turns up quite a few times, and I have come to realize it is a bad word in England.

Yeah if you go up to someone and call them a tosser, that highly aggressive. I think it basically means the same as 'wanker', as in, to toss yourself off, or to toss one out. It is often accompanied with an appropriate hand motion.

I'd have to say that your right about good and bad words, and there is often a consensus on what is a good and bad word in certain cultures. Using the F word is usually the penultimate, or the C word for that matter. They are bad-sounding words, but no one word should ever be banned, not even the N word. It has to do with our right to free speech.

Was it George Carlin who said you shouldn't say the N word, because it immediately puts the offensive word 'n****r' into the other person's head, so it's pretty much as if you did say it?

[ZephyrusX]

Most people I know don't swear in order to convey blind hatred. They use it is casual speech. I would be taken aback by your particular use of the word though. But then, if there is that much hatred in a person's speech, may be we ought to speak about it. I think it is largely a class issue. But I don't have time to make a indepth post at the moment. I'll do so after work.

Originally Posted by Velorien

Presumably, they have a problem with these words because, within the English language, they are words mostly used to express anger and hostility, and to insult others. Look at it this way: suppose I said "**** the Jews; we should kill them all" in an environment where there are no Jews around. Even if you personally are not the target of this statement, you will still likely be offended by this expression of blind hatred, and if you are particularly sensitive, the very energy of hatred emanating from the statement may make you feel bad.

Maybe you have the right to be vulgar because you live in a country that legislates free speech. This doesn't mean you should be surprised when people have a problem with you using that right in what they consider an irresponsible way.

That aside, you make some interesting points. Thank you.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by James81

It's not the words themselves that make such a difference, but how they are used.

I basically agree with this, although I would put more emphasis on ones cultual milieux and material circumstances more so than the physical act it self. Swearing in Aboriginal gangs is different then lets say swearing in University culture. In the one group, swearing is often just used casually (though I suspect it is used to convey other ideas ie 'blind hatred). In university (at least in my experience), you are looked down upon if you swear. It is 'vulgar' aka 'common' speak.

[Velorien]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Most people I know don't swear in order to convey blind hatred. They use it is casual speech. I would be taken aback by your particular use of the word though. But then, if there is that much hatred in a person's speech, may be we ought to speak about it. I think it is largely a class issue. But I don't have time to make a indepth post at the moment. I'll do so after work.

I actually think casual swearing is worse. Words have power, and swearwords are meant to have raw emotional power. Casual swearing drains that power from them and takes away their purpose, like using a katana to cut wood until it is too blunt to be used in battle.

I look forward to reading your in-depth post.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Velorien

I actually think casual swearing is worse. Words have power, and swearwords are meant to have raw emotional power. Casual swearing drains that power from them and takes away their purpose, like using a katana to cut wood until it is too blunt to be used in battle.

I look forward to reading your in-depth post.

Maybe in other languages, but I assure you, this doesn't happen to our superior English swear words.

Have you ever heard a Spanish-speaker or French speaker swear? Just sounds like their excited. In German you can't tell a swear word from a normal one. Conversely, Russians sounds like they're swearing even when they are not. But English, with its mongrel mix of words, has the best swear words. Including the best one of all - F***.

YouTube - Origin Of The Word "♥♥♥♥" (Parental advisory: NOT safe for work or children)

[Velorien]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Conversely, Russians sounds like they're swearing even when they are not.

Actually, the Russian language of swearing ("mat") is so complex and elaborate that my Russian sociologist mother tells a tale of listening to two homeless men prepare tea while speaking exclusively in swearwords, and achieving an intelligible conversation. Seriously, Russian swearing blows English attempts at same out of the water.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by velorien

two homeless men prepare tea while speaking exclusively in swearwords, and achieving an intelligible conversation.

i knew it!!!!

[starlequin]

Originally Posted by James81

It made me wonder...if we stopped teaching our kids that certain words were bad, would there be any bad words in the future?

Words are just representations of the intent you put behind them. They would have different words to communicate the same intent as the curse words we commonly use now. I guess teaching children to never feel enraged or say something in response to getting their finger smashed unexpectedly would be a start. Teaching calming and relaxation techniques might work.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by Velorien

I actually think casual swearing is worse. Words have power, and swearwords are meant to have raw emotional power. Casual swearing drains that power from them and takes away their purpose, like using a katana to cut wood until it is too blunt to be used in battle.

I look forward to reading your in-depth post.

So, you are saying swearing causally drains swearwords of their power because we become so desensitized to them? May be. At first glance though, I wouldn't agree with this. Words do not exist in a vacuum. They are contextualized by their sentence structure, our body language, our intonation, the emotional state of the interpreter, the physical setting of the conversation... so many things really... If I really wanted to, I could still convey raw emotional power by swearing. But this is just getting back to James' original point. Words do not have any inherent meaning onto themselves. The meaning of a word will change when it's context changes. The word 'F***' would be meaningless onto it self.

As for causal swearing, I'm not sure how much I can add to this now that I have thought about it. In my own experience, certain sub-populations (I.E Aboriginal gangs) tend to swear more than other sub-populations (university students). For no other reason other than their upbringing. If you are rised by people who swear a lot, chances are, you are going to model the same behaviour. And the type of language that one models will vary over the course of his/her life. When I went to university, I swore a lot less just because of the change in my environment.

When someone turns around and says that my use of swear words is 'bad', I suspect they are really telling me 'we don't use this language'. As in, language creates barriers between 'us' and 'them'. I haven't really heard a good reason why f*** is a bad word (though I am open to suggestions). I have heard many times that inarticulate people resort to swearing because they are unable to come up with a more sophiscated means of communicating how they feel. But, quite frankly, I think this is a load of ****. I have no trouble understanding people who swear. I am myself swear fairly often (not every sentence, but still, fairly often) and I generally receive praise for my level of communication if I receive any feedback at all.

[LostMyMap]

Thought this was a rather funny headline today, considering this coversation:

Justin Bieber Egg Tosser Arrested | News | VH1.com

[carenkh]

I never taught my kids that there were "bad" words. I don't cuss a lot, but they certainly have heard curse words over the years. I have told them that some people are offended by certain words, so not to use them around those people. ("don't say f*** around grammy!") I have told them certain words are insulting ("gay" used as an insult) or can be hurtful, but they are free to say what they want. I am not normally offended by curse words (depends on context), so they have been free to say what they want at home.

My oldest son cusses sometimes when he's gaming and gets frustrated. My youngest NEVER cusses, and he's easily offended when others do. He stopped hanging out with a friend of his, because his friend used curse words so much. Neither of them feel the need to use curse words to shock others.