U.S Soldiers wide Awake...and mad as Hell!

[elucidate]

A friend posted this on my facebook page, so I just wanted to share as it is quite powerful...YouTube - American Soldiers Are WAKING UP!! SUPPORT OF TAKING AMERICA BACK!!! (StopTheRobbery2)

[Sfumato]

have you looked at the profiles of some of these people who are becoming famous for their hyperbolic tantrums?

For example. Anderson: on his profile it says he "joined the military to get money for college" SO from the first day, he was not in the military to serve his fellow citizen, he was there for some college money. In other words he is a mercenary. Any person who joins the military with money as the main motivation is a mercenary plain and simple really.

More to the point, if this guy would join the military for college money instead of the desire to serve the people and "protect them from all enemies foreign and domestic" it demonstrates that he would likely do any number of things for money, like TV appearances, or go to congress on George Soros's dime.

My brother and I were there, although he did much more time than I as I retired. I have hundreds of pictures of guys doing the best they could to help out these people. I hate this war and the fact that we had to be there, but damn, this over dramatized crap is so unrealistic that it is practically Hollywood level farce.

[elucidate]

Well, that's your perception of course.

I don't see it as "hyperbolic tantrums" at all, nor do I see their dissident as being "Hollywood level farce" (apart from one soldier who did sound like he was just acting the part half way through), and no I didn't read their profiles, but even if one persons motivations were to make money, and I don't see it as "mercenary" to want to pay for college tuition...that **** is expensive and many of these boys were quite young when they enlisted.

It doesn't mean they didn't also want to fight for their country, it just means they were also thinking of paying for their college fees (which is what the recruiters wave in front of their faces come drafting time). I don't see why you are being so harshly judgemental towards them, or jumping to conclusions about their character because they succumbed to military drafting tactics?

Did you have someone pay for your college tuition?

It does not account for the other 1,200 soldiers who have also chosen to defy their government and can see that the war was about much more than what they were told it was about.

There was one guy who used to frequent this forum who served as well, and he spoke of the same thing and was very angry at feeling used by the government, but I didn't get the impression that he joined for the money, in fact he still lives back in arkansas with his mother. I don't know for sure though what his motivations were, but I found him to be a pretty straight up kinda character.

We will have to agree to disagree on this I think, though I don't discount that you have had first hand experience of this and I have not.

Originally Posted by Sfumato

have you looked at the profiles of some of these people who are becoming famous for their hyperbolic tantrums?

For example. Anderson: on his profile it says he "joined the military to get money for college" SO from the first day, he was not in the military to serve his fellow citizen, he was there for some college money. In other words he is a mercenary. Any person who joins the military with money as the main motivation is a mercenary plain and simple really.

More to the point, if this guy would join the military for college money instead of the desire to serve the people and "protect them from all enemies foreign and domestic" it demonstrates that he would likely do any number of things for money, like TV appearances, or go to congress on George Soros's dime.

My brother and I were there, although he did much more time than I as I retired. I have hundreds of pictures of guys doing the best they could to help out these people. I hate this war and the fact that we had to be there, but damn, this over dramatized crap is so unrealistic that it is practically Hollywood level farce.

[Sfumato]

i respect your reply.

I do have a sensitive area in my mental makeup for the military and the way it was used by our dear prick of president (Bush that is)

I joined specifically because I was a young believer in defending our country. I was in Kosovo and saw first hand what a monster can do to people when unchecked. Majority, I would go so far as to say 99.5 % of American soldiers would never dream of kicking in a door, killing the adults and raping the teenage girls. We saw the aftermath of this kind of ethic cleansing on multiple occasions in Kosovo. Iraq was not at war when we went in, yet these people suffered so much under Saddam. My brother and I have pictures that we managed to sneak out on flash drives of the hundreds and hundreds of bodies that were extracted from the "pools" (they were actually large man made ponds) at Uday and Qusay "palaces". Uday in particular delighted in picking a girl at random, ordering her to have sex with him and than having her shot if she was lucky, but from what some of the locals told me, Uday had a penchant for torture and took special pleasure in torturing women. This not a media propaganda story, these are stories we heard right from the servants and locals we questioned near the compounds.

I still hate the war and yes innocent people got killed in the crossfire although i am pretty sure we killed less civilian people in the last ten years than we did in WWII. i some like to say "Millions and Millions" but that is silly. We would have had to been shooting civilians every day 5 times a day to get a number in the "millions and millions" scale. I think in all my tours I had to engage a target 16 or 17 times. It not as if you go out of the wire and start fighting all day everyday until you get back in the wire at night. Honestly I say between 65,000 and 150,000 "non-combatants" have been outright killed either by us or by the enemy during engagements. That is a alot of people who didn't deserve it.

[elucidate]

Thankyou.

I lay awake last night considering what you said, and I think you may be right in some regards.

Obviously I was not there, so I cannot know what really went on, and I'm sure there were people like you who did help out a lot. Are you sure there weren't people who behaved the way these guys in the link behaved though? I can't imagine anyone willingly going on the internet saying they did those things and consider themselves to be the real terrorists, if it didn't happen...can you?

I appreciate that you shared some of your experiences here with us. I'm sure it was not easy to remember the things you have seen. War is an ugly thing, and no man should have to witness it first hand.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Sfumato

More to the point, if this guy would join the military for college money instead of the desire to serve the people and "protect them from all enemies foreign and domestic" it demonstrates that he would likely do any number of things for money, like TV appearances, or go to congress on George Soros's dime.

That seems to be what recruiters want. When they gave me a call a decade ago and offered money for college if I joined I told them I already had a full scholarship. They quickly ended the conversation with little else to say.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by openeyes

That seems to be what recruiters want. When they gave me a call a decade ago and offered money for college if I joined I told them I already had a full scholarship. They quickly ended the conversation with little else to say.

It's an easy carrot to wave in front of kids who come from poor families...they get to play the hero AND their parents don't have to struggle to pay for their tuition. Brainwashing them becomes even easier once they've bit on the snag.

[DANDUNGAN]

I know Humans will learn to stop killing themselves. . .one day soon. I can see it coming!

[Sfumato]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Thankyou.

I lay awake last night considering what you said, and I think you may be right in some regards.

Obviously I was not there, so I cannot know what really went on, and I'm sure there were people like you who did help out a lot. Are you sure there weren't people who behaved the way these guys in the link behaved though? I can't imagine anyone willingly going on the internet saying they did those things and consider themselves to be the real terrorists, if it didn't happen...can you?

I appreciate that you shared some of your experiences here with us. I'm sure it was not easy to remember the things you have seen. War is an ugly thing, and no man should have to witness it first hand.

Sorry it took me so long to reply,

I think in fairness and by logic I have to agree that some people did do very wrong things, but I believe the percentage of guys and gals who committed evil acts while in on deployment would have to be very low. I know some bad stuff happened, like when on of our Gunships fired on a camera crew because he believed they had an RPG, that incident was made worse when a van pulled up (before the ground forces could get there) seemingly to help the wounded news crew and the gunship opened fire on it as well... and the two kids inside. Ok he had no idea that kids were in the van, but his reaction was...unholy. When the ground unit arrived they immediately ordered the air support to back off that they had just fired into a van with kids in it. The medic Sargent grabbed the little girl and ran to his HMMWV were he was able to save her life with some fast battlefield medic magic. I was stunned later to hear the voice of the pilot on the playback of the camera feed and audio he said "Oh well shouldn't have brought kids to a war" (paraphrase).

So ya, bad JUJU happens in war and some people are there because they love to be monsters and flex power over life and death to what they consider not people, not even human.

In defense of some, the military trains us not to make to think of the enemy as humans, so in a war like Iraq even the civilians become less human. It was a daily struggle for some to remember that these are human beings and not just Sand-N******, rag heads, Goat herders, targets etc etc.

[Sfumato]

Originally Posted by DANDUNGAN

I know Humans will learn to stop killing themselves. . .one day soon. I can see it coming!

Sorry Dan what you see coming is the flash from the atomic bombs. i am pretty sure that is the only way we will stop killing each other, cause none of us will be left.

[Alstar]

Originally Posted by Sfumato

I know some bad stuff happened, like when on of our Gunships fired on a camera crew because he believed they had an RPG, that incident was made worse when a van pulled up (before the ground forces could get there) seemingly to help the wounded news crew and the gunship opened fire on it as well... and the two kids inside. Ok he had no idea that kids were in the van, but his reaction was...unholy. When the ground unit arrived they immediately ordered the air support to back off that they had just fired into a van with kids in it. The medic Sargent grabbed the little girl and ran to his HMMWV were he was able to save her life with some fast battlefield medic magic. I was stunned later to hear the voice of the pilot on the playback of the camera feed and audio he said "Oh well shouldn't have brought kids to a war" (paraphrase).

Were they charged with anything or just kicked out of the military?

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by Sfumato

have you looked at the profiles of some of these people who are becoming famous for their hyperbolic tantrums?

For example. Anderson: on his profile it says he "joined the military to get money for college" SO from the first day, he was not in the military to serve his fellow citizen, he was there for some college money. In other words he is a mercenary. Any person who joins the military with money as the main motivation is a mercenary plain and simple really.

More to the point, if this guy would join the military for college money instead of the desire to serve the people and "protect them from all enemies foreign and domestic" it demonstrates that he would likely do any number of things for money, like TV appearances, or go to congress on George Soros's dime.

My brother and I were there, although he did much more time than I as I retired. I have hundreds of pictures of guys doing the best they could to help out these people. I hate this war and the fact that we had to be there, but damn, this over dramatized crap is so unrealistic that it is practically Hollywood level farce.

I don't think anyone really looks down on people for having jobs "for the money", as that is often the chief reason why they are doing it. I guess soldiers are put to a higher standard though, as if it wasn't enough to risk life and limb in an (IMO) miserable job, in what is the most horryfing theater invented by man (not that I have been in it, thankfully), because you also have to have the best intentions and be a martyr to boot. While civillians can be as self-serving and petty as they want when it comes to complaining about their jobs and lives.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by DANDUNGAN

I know Humans will learn to stop killing themselves. . .one day soon. I can see it coming!

It's nice to hope, but...can't see it happening. Not in my lifetime anyway. War and conflict are a part of being human. There is no escape from that.

People would have to learn how to communicate more effectively...the people in charge anyway, and there is no profit to be had by learning to resolve conflict peacefully.

[elucidate]

Thanks, I appreciate your honesty.

The person I spoke to who used to come here a lot but has since abandoned the forums, said that there was also a lot of dirty dealings going on in the military in the way of shutting people up to what goes on.

He implied that some sort of backlash was imminent though he and his buddies were gonna do their best to keep it as peaceful as possible? Do you have anything to say about this?

Originally Posted by Sfumato

Sorry it took me so long to reply,

I think in fairness and by logic I have to agree that some people did do very wrong things, but I believe the percentage of guys and gals who committed evil acts while in on deployment would have to be very low. I know some bad stuff happened, like when on of our Gunships fired on a camera crew because he believed they had an RPG, that incident was made worse when a van pulled up (before the ground forces could get there) seemingly to help the wounded news crew and the gunship opened fire on it as well... and the two kids inside. Ok he had no idea that kids were in the van, but his reaction was...unholy. When the ground unit arrived they immediately ordered the air support to back off that they had just fired into a van with kids in it. The medic Sargent grabbed the little girl and ran to his HMMWV were he was able to save her life with some fast battlefield medic magic. I was stunned later to hear the voice of the pilot on the playback of the camera feed and audio he said "Oh well shouldn't have brought kids to a war" (paraphrase).

So ya, bad JUJU happens in war and some people are there because they love to be monsters and flex power over life and death to what they consider not people, not even human.

In defense of some, the military trains us not to make to think of the enemy as humans, so in a war like Iraq even the civilians become less human. It was a daily struggle for some to remember that these are human beings and not just Sand-N******, rag heads, Goat herders, targets etc etc.

[DANDUNGAN]

Originally Posted by Sfumato

Sorry Dan what you see coming is the flash from the atomic bombs. i am pretty sure that is the only way we will stop killing each other, cause none of us will be left.

Now that was funny!

You know, that's what makes humans so lovable, and that's what got us as far as we've come.

That instinct to face conflict is one of human nature's greatest assets. When we refrain from killing; however, and direct that energy to understanding and creating, Humans will bring the changes that nurture life and make great leaps forward. And I imagine the first step is to be able to see--in our minds' eye--that day when there are creative alternatives to killing.

[DANDUNGAN]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It's nice to hope, but...can't see it happening. Not in my lifetime anyway. War and conflict are a part of being human. There is no escape from that.

First of all, for me, it's not a hope. I see it--with strong intent.

People would have to learn how to communicate more effectively...the people in charge anyway, and there is no profit to be had by learning to resolve conflict peacefully.

I agree that people need to learn to communicate more effectively, but I differ with that it needs to be the people "in charge". We are all individually "in charge" of our behavior, and we can learn to communicate more effectively. Workshops such as Steve's or Jean Houston's have been instrumental in my communicative improvement. I used to be afraid to look other people in the eyes--to make eye contact. Jean Houston brought me to a new level, and now I am compelled to make eye contact, especially with those with whom I have conflict.

Lastly, I disagree that there's no profit to be had by learning to resolve conflict. Well maybe resolving conflict produces no profit, but managing conflict can produce profit for all parties.

Conflict is the great engine of creativity. I steer myself towards conflict in order to learn and grow.

[Sfumato]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Thanks, I appreciate your honesty.

The person I spoke to who used to come here a lot but has since abandoned the forums, said that there was also a lot of dirty dealings going on in the military in the way of shutting people up to what goes on.

He implied that some sort of backlash was imminent though he and his buddies were gonna do their best to keep it as peaceful as possible? Do you have anything to say about this?

I wish I could speak on this, I am not sure what the backlash he was referring to maybe.

For my own part, when i left the military I had to sign documentation stating that I would not reveal any classified information and I had to sign it my dates. For instance, i could talk about operation "lovable bunny" in 5 years, I could not talk about information on person XYZ for 10 years and I am forbidden to reveal AB or C indefinably (or at least till congress declassifies it)

All in all I have only 1 of those letters till over my head and in 2012 that one will expire as well. As for any military methods of shutting up soldiers, I have never encountered any clandestine means. If the powers that be need to shut someone up they often just get in trouble under the UCMJ or the secrets act. Although I have heard it rumored that the sometimes high ranking officials that don't want to play ball with the commands idea of the truth,will occasionally be found with kiddie-porn on their computers......odd haw that keeps happening to anyone willing to oppose the war in an official capacity.

[Sfumato]

Originally Posted by DANDUNGAN

Now that was funny!

You know, that's what makes humans so lovable, and that's what got us as far as we've come.

That instinct to face conflict is one of human nature's greatest assets. When we refrain from killing; however, and direct that energy to understanding and creating, Humans will bring the changes that nurture life and make great leaps forward. And I imagine the first step is to be able to see--in our minds' eye--that day when there are creative alternatives to killing.

Sad part is Dan, that we the poor through the middle class seem the ones who do the killing and the dieing. Our species had one chance to end war forever on time in history. Read up on the Christmas truce of WWI.
Christmas truce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was the one time in history were the "enemies" met each other and then refused to kill each other just to comply with the plutocratic masters desires. We came so close to ending war...

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by DANDUNGAN

I agree that people need to learn to communicate more effectively, but I differ with that it needs to be the people "in charge".

They are the ones that make the decision to go to war though, so in the context of war, they are the ones who could use some effective communication skills...AS WELL as the rest of us. I wasn't saying it needs to be JUST them...but so far as war goes, they are the ones in charge of whether we go to war or not, right?

Lastly, I disagree that there's no profit to be had by learning to resolve conflict. Well maybe resolving conflict produces no profit, but managing conflict can produce profit for all parties.

I'm talking about WAR here(Capitals used for emphasis, not yelling.), not individual conflict resolution. War is about profit these days, so, to them, there is no profit to be made in peace.

Conflict is the great engine of creativity. I steer myself towards conflict in order to learn and grow.

i agree with this, and do not shy away from conflict either.

[DANDUNGAN]

Originally Posted by Sfumato

Sad part is Dan, that we the poor through the middle class seem the ones who do the killing and the dieing. Our species had one chance to end war forever on time in history. Read up on the Christmas truce of WWI.
Christmas truce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was the one time in history were the "enemies" met each other and then refused to kill each other just to comply with the plutocratic masters desires. We came so close to ending war...

Since it almost happened once, it can happen again--with better results.

[DANDUNGAN]

Originally Posted by elucidate

They are the ones that make the decision to go to war though, so in the context of war, they are the ones who could use some effective communication skills...AS WELL as the rest of us.


>Those that start wars do have effective communication skills. They manage to sell the wars to the young people who go fight them.

>Maybe I'm not clear what you mean by effective communications skills. I'm wondering if you could be more specific about the skills they would they need?


I wasn't saying it needs to be JUST them...but so far as war goes, they are the ones in charge of whether we go to war or not, right?


>Well, as I understand what the soldiers in the clip are saying, each individual decides whether to go to war or not.


I'm talking about WAR here(Capitals used for emphasis, not yelling.), not individual conflict resolution. War is about profit these days, so, to them, there is no profit to be made in peace.


>That's why I say each individual need more effective communication skills, >so we can convince them there are other ways to profit.


i agree with this, and do not shy away from conflict either.

>Thank you for responding to my comments. With interactions like these, we may find better ways to communicate with those in power.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by DANDUNGAN

>Thank you for responding to my comments. With interactions like these, we may find better ways to communicate with those in power.

I would like to think so too...however, I'm not sure that knowing how to manipulate young minds is really the same as effectively communicating though?

I was speaking more about our "leaders" using conflict resolution skills to come to amicable agreements about their individual issues actually...thus negating the need to go to war...but, as I said, war these days is more about the profit and patriotism it can generate, so I don't see peace as an option they are all that interested in, despite what they may tell the people of the world.

I do feel like we are both not on the same page here, in spite of our individual efforts. That's ok. Hopefully we will get there?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Sfumato

I wish I could speak on this, I am not sure what the backlash he was referring to maybe.

For my own part, when i left the military I had to sign documentation stating that I would not reveal any classified information and I had to sign it my dates. For instance, i could talk about operation "lovable bunny" in 5 years, I could not talk about information on person XYZ for 10 years and I am forbidden to reveal AB or C indefinably (or at least till congress declassifies it)

I understand. I don't think I really expected you to divulge anything even if you wanted to, but I thought I'd try anyway. No harm in that is there?

All in all I have only 1 of those letters till over my head and in 2012 that one will expire as well. As for any military methods of shutting up soldiers, I have never encountered any clandestine means. If the powers that be need to shut someone up they often just get in trouble under the UCMJ or the secrets act. Although I have heard it rumored that the sometimes high ranking officials that don't want to play ball with the commands idea of the truth,will occasionally be found with kiddie-porn on their computers......odd haw that keeps happening to anyone willing to oppose the war in an official capacity.

It's interesting what different people in their own realities will say isn't it.

It's also interesting how people are "just found" with kiddie porn in their computer, discrediting them before they can do any sort of damage. Then again, it's also perfectly possible that those men were just perverts!

I appreciate your input, thanks.

[DANDUNGAN]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I would like to think so too...however, I'm not sure that knowing how to manipulate young minds is really the same as effectively communicating though?

I was speaking more about our "leaders" using conflict resolution skills to come to amicable agreements about their individual issues actually...thus negating the need to go to war...but, as I said, war these days is more about the profit and patriotism it can generate, so I don't see peace as an option they are all that interested in, despite what they may tell the people of the world.

I do feel like we are both not on the same page here, in spite of our individual efforts. That's ok. Hopefully we will get there?

I agree that those supposed leaders want to keep the conflict. I think that's how they stay in power. Then they have something to lead.

But when the leaders are taking one in an undesirable direction, they cease to be leaders and start becoming tyrants. Maybe you are looking for ways to get them to change, but you don't see that happening.

Is that closer?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by DANDUNGAN

I agree that those supposed leaders want to keep the conflict. I think that's how they stay in power. Then they have something to lead.

But when the leaders are taking one in an undesirable direction, they cease to be leaders and start becoming tyrants. Maybe you are looking for ways to get them to change, but you don't see that happening.

Is that closer?

Well, I wasn't trying to get them to change,no. It would be nice if they evolved to want to change...but I don't see that happening.

It's all well and good to talk about how effective communication can be a plus in the context of war, but unless those in charge are listening, it's all pretty much just talk, isn't it?

[Excellent Lodestar]

Originally Posted by elucidate

A friend posted this on my facebook page, so I just wanted to share as it is quite powerful...YouTube - American Soldiers Are WAKING UP!! SUPPORT OF TAKING AMERICA BACK!!! (StopTheRobbery2)

Thanks for the vid
I thought of the Pat Tillman story.YouTube - Pat Tillman story pt.1

Pat was an NFL Superstar who gave it all up-- just wanted to hunt bin laden... believing there was honor in that pursuit...he became quickly disillusioned. It's so tragic and disgusting, not that he was patriotic, but that he was lied to.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Excellent Lodestar

Thanks for the vid
I thought of the Pat Tillman story.YouTube - Pat Tillman story pt.1

Pat was an NFL Superstar who gave it all up-- just wanted to hunt bin laden... believing there was honor in that pursuit...he became quickly disillusioned. It's so tragic and disgusting, not that he was patriotic, but that he was lied to.

The way I see it, and this may inflame some americans...but, Bin Laden was a person who reacted to seeing his people and agriculture being royally screwed by america.

Yes, it was an extreme reaction, but 911 was NOT an unwarranted attack on the U.S as people think. It was a retaliative response to being screwed for years by the american military and government.

He was human and he was doing what he thought he needed to do to defend his country and his people, and he gave into revenge. Learning the history of these battles and taking in BOTH sides of the story is important. People do not instigate revenge for no reason...there is always a reason for it, and usually a good reason.

I'm not saying that his actions were right or rational...they weren't, but they were understandable given what was happening in his country to his people.

I just find it disgusting the way the U.S military lies to their soldiers and rope them in to go and fight a war that THEY STARTED, and then have the nerve to call the "enemy" the terrorists.