Dutch girl, 12, gives birth on school trip

[gigij]

This story is unbelievable.

A 12 year old Dutch girl gave birth while on a school trip. She has refused to name the father, and police are investigating.

The most shocking part of the story however is that she is living with her father, who was granted custody after a divorce, despite the fact that he had previously served two years in jail for sexually assaulting an older daughter.

What authority would ever give custody of a young girl to a convicted sex offender? Although nothing has been proven if things are the way they look (to me anyway) shouldn’t whoever made that decision also be held accountable? I just hope there is some mechanism for charging them with child abuse as well.

[SimpleSky]

wow. if what i am implying from that is true.....ew that is so wrong! :/

[gigij]

... and in 'related' news:

Abercrombie is marketing a new "push up triangle" padded bikini top. In their spring KIDS line. Just in case your 7 - 12 year old isn't sexy enough the way she is.

My stomach is churning today.

[James81]

Where's the link to these stories? Not that I don't believe you, I just like to read stuff at it's source (or the highest source available, that is). (Ask bullard, I'm constantly hounding him for chapter and verses on scriptures. )

[gigij]

Originally Posted by James81

Where's the link to these stories? Not that I don't believe you, I just like to read stuff at it's source (or the highest source available, that is). (Ask bullard, I'm constantly hounding him for chapter and verses on scriptures. )

sorry - technology challenged here - i have no idea how to link stories

you can easily google it though. and if you would like to link it to this thread feel free.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

Where's the link to these stories? Not that I don't believe you, I just like to read stuff at it's source (or the highest source available, that is). (Ask bullard, I'm constantly hounding him for chapter and verses on scriptures. )

Dutch Girl, 12, Gives Birth To Baby Girl

Abercrombie & Fitch sells push-up bikini tops for eight-year-olds - Kevin Marshall's America - timesunion.com - Albany NY

googled while listening to a booooooring lecture on cultural psychology's origins...lol

[ssandra]

After checking Dutch news sources (this is one : Nog geen aanhoudingen in zaak bevalling 12-jarige :: nrc.nl)


it seems that the rumor that the dad has been in jail for abuse are just that, rumors.

They don't know yet if the dad (of the new born baby) was another child and it was just experimentation or if there was abuse.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

In any case I feel for that 12 year old girl. Can you imagine how terrified she must have been? I hope she is alright.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by ssandra

it seems that the rumor that the dad has been in jail for abuse are just that, rumors.

They don't know yet if the dad (of the new born baby) was another child and it was just experimentation or if there was abuse.

The account I read quoted the sister, who is now 30.

And as I said nothing has been proven at this point.

The account I read also said the age of consent was 12 there, but as she was pregnant at 11 a crime had been committed regardless. Do you know if that is accurate Sandra? That the Dutch age of consent is 12?

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

In any case I feel for that 12 year old girl. Can you imagine how terrified she must have been? I hope she is alright.

Well, I'm glad that people here are empathetic enough to care. When one of my co-workers (16) got pregnant, all I heard from other coworkers was 'how stupid' she was, how she 'has' to get an abortion etc. Though in this scenario, it was a case of pregnancy due to unprotected sex.

WTH: Anyone, not just someone that young, ought to have love and support after getting pregnant. Especially if they choose to keep the baby.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by gigij

The account I read quoted the sister, who is now 30.

And as I said nothing has been proven at this point.

The account I read also said the age of consent was 12 there, but as she was pregnant at 11 a crime had been committed regardless. Do you know if that is accurate Sandra? That the Dutch age of consent is 12?

EDIT:

Ok, the age of legal consent is 16, under that it is automatically harassment. Even if it is a boy of 16 with his girlfriend of 15. Under 14 however it is automatically rape, even if they are 2 13 year old children.

I do believe the Dutch law (as far as I know) allows for some flexibility in who the want to prosecute for these facts and who not.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by ssandra

EDIT:
Under 14 however it is automatically rape, even if they are 2 13 year old children.

...they rape each other? O.o

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Elrond

...they rape each other? O.o

Actually... yes It's silly, but true.

I believe in the US it is the same, only under 16. And I believe actually most countries have similar laws...

You are from somewhere in Scandinavia right? What is the law there?

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Actually... yes It's silly, but true.

I believe in the US it is the same, only under 16. And I believe actually most countries have similar laws...

Yes that's US law, too.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Elrond

...they rape each other? O.o

Yeah, the technical definition of rape is when one party does not give consent. Since neither party has the power to give consent according to the law, neither party gave consent. Thus, it's technically rape.

It does feel silly, but I personally consider that set of laws to be the kind that ought to exist to give authorities legal power in gray areas, and to be cheerfully ignored in the areas that are actually okay.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Well, I'm glad that people here are empathetic enough to care. When one of my co-workers (16) got pregnant, all I heard from other coworkers was 'how stupid' she was, how she 'has' to get an abortion etc. Though in this scenario, it was a case of pregnancy due to unprotected sex.

WTH: Anyone, not just someone that young, ought to have love and support after getting pregnant. Especially if they choose to keep the baby.

Really? People saying a 12 year old is stupid for getting pregnant. My god, I wouldn't have even known what sex was at that age. That's a pretty stupid thing for grown adults to say...not to mention devoid of compassion.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Really? People saying a 12 year old is stupid for getting pregnant. My god, I wouldn't have even known what sex was at that age. That's a pretty stupid thing for grown adults to say...not to mention devoid of compassion.

Yah, the person I was talking about was 16 though. It was still pretty horrible. I was more thrown off by the fact that my other coworkers thought that they had the right to presume whether or not she ought to keep the baby. The underlying assumption was that she didn't understand the consequences of keeping her baby. If she did, she would not think twice about having an abortion. I'm sure she made her decision in full knowlege of the consequences (both positive and negative).

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by ssandra

You are from somewhere in Scandinavia right? What is the law there?

16. Around here it is not illegal for two underaged persons to have sex. It isn't illegal either if they are around the same age ooor same development. So say 15 and 17 could maybe be ok.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Elrond

16. Around here it is not illegal for two underaged persons to have sex. It isn't illegal either if they are around the same age ooor same development. So say 15 and 17 could maybe be ok.

Not even under a certain age, say 12 or so?

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by Elrond

16. Around here it is not illegal for two underaged persons to have sex. It isn't illegal either if they are around the same age ooor same development. So say 15 and 17 could maybe be ok.

In Canada, it is the same except there is a lower limit in age I believe. So anyone under 12 (I think) cannot have sex even if it is with someone around the same age. I think there may be some restrictions on what the courts will consider 'similar age' as well, which I don't know the exact details on. So, a 12 year old can have sex with someone who is 2 to 3 years older, but not someone who is 17 even though they are considered under aged.

Wait that is wrong... I think 16 is the consenting age. May be it is 12 year olds can consent with anyone who is 14, but not over?

[1by1]

... and in 'related' news:

Abercrombie is marketing a new "push up triangle" padded bikini top. In their spring KIDS line. Just in case your 7 - 12 year old isn't sexy enough the way she is.

There was something similar to this in the UK a few weeks/months ago, where there was a big public outcry and the new range was dropped. Now I believe the government is considering banning selling such things to children under a certain age. It may be that the situation is worse in the US, with more children shown sexualised imagery on the TV and in cinemas and adverts and things.

The thing to do is to complain and try to put pressure on state and federal governments, as well as stores, if you find it as disgusting as I do.

[AlmostGodess]

I have serious reservations to calling such acts rape because rape involves the lack of consent of one person, not of the both parties involved. I guess that in most jurisdictions such an act would be qualified as sexual perversity. I also guess that, at the time when the criminal codes were drafted (sometimes in the 1800s), drafters could not imagine that 11 years old children could have sex with each other. Or maybe they imagined that children could have sex, but made it a law that they should not.

Another strong guess I have on this issue is that there is not enough or clear legislation in this field. For example, even if two children were found guilty of perversity, they do not have criminal responsibility at that age to be really punished. Except of the qualification of sexual acts performed by children, children's rights activists argue against certain content in advertisement for example. It is a classic debate between economic rights vs. human rights.

As to the custody, I find it difficult to believe that the relevant authority would grant a person accused of sexual assault custody of a small girl. In Europe at least, these authorities do their job extremely well.

[Alstar]

As "icky" as this sort of thing is, it IS perfectly legal and within the bounds of the morality of personal choice and freedom. I think these laws are based solely on what feels "icky", rather than logical appraisals of age boundaries. I used to think this sort of thing was "icky" too, but after seeing just how common pre-teen pregnancy, underage sex and statutory "rape" is, I fail to see the "icky" anymore and don't see anything morally questionable.

[AlmostGodess]

Originally Posted by Alstar

As "icky" as this sort of thing is, it IS perfectly legal and within the bounds of the morality of personal choice and freedom. I think these laws are based solely on what feels "icky", rather than logical appraisals of age boundaries. I used to think this sort of thing was "icky" too, but after seeing just how common pre-teen pregnancy, underage sex and statutory "rape" is, I fail to see the "icky" anymore and don't see anything morally questionable.

What about murder? Is killing part of the person's freedom of choice too?

I guess you expected these questions

[Alstar]

Originally Posted by AlmostGodess

What about murder? Is killing part of the person's freedom of choice too?

I guess you expected these questions

The two scenarios are not even comparable. Murder is someone imposing their will onto someone who doesn't want to die. Two 12-year-olds having sex is two people choosing to have sex, regardless of the factors of peer pressure or whatever. If they want to do it then nobody should stop them, not even their parents. Similarly, an 18+-year-old and a 14-year-old having sex is two people making a personal choice. The law should not have a say in it because it's two people making a choice. The moral implications are complicated for each case and outside of the scope of the law.

There is just nothing there legally which constitutes the law being involved.

[ssandra]

a big difference between a 16 or 17 year old and a 12 year old is the maturity to oversee long term consequences to decisions.

I don't think that the sexual nature of most 12 year old is natural (there will be exceptions of course!).

I think it is in a large way influenced by tv, news, movies, people they look up to. Thinking "this is how it is supposed to be" instead of really feeling it.

After all, most reproductive organs are only barely developing at that age... girls only just start to menstruate, boys only just start to get testosterone and other stuff....

I don't think that just because it happens (way too) often, it means that it is natural, or a good thing.

[AlmostGodess]

Originally Posted by Alstar

I used to think this sort of thing was "icky" too, but after seeing just how common pre-teen pregnancy, underage sex and statutory "rape" is, I fail to see the "icky" anymore and don't see anything morally questionable.

My main issue here was with rape and I was just wondering how come the fact that rape is an often offense can be a justification for it.

Originally Posted by Alstar

The two scenarios are not even comparable. Murder is someone imposing their will onto someone who doesn't want to die. Two 12-year-olds having sex is two people choosing to have sex, regardless of the factors of peer pressure or whatever. If they want to do it then nobody should stop them, not even their parents. Similarly, an 18+-year-old and a 14-year-old having sex is two people making a personal choice. The law should not have a say in it because it's two people making a choice. The moral implications are complicated for each case and outside of the scope of the law.

There is just nothing there legally which constitutes the law being involved.

Protecting somebody's life is just as important to as protecting their physical and psychological integrity or sexuality, isn't it?

[Anthoneee]

I hope they're happy

[Alstar]

Originally Posted by ssandra

a big difference between a 16 or 17 year old and a 12 year old is the maturity to oversee long term consequences to decisions.

I don't think that the sexual nature of most 12 year old is natural (there will be exceptions of course!).

I think it is in a large way influenced by tv, news, movies, people they look up to. Thinking "this is how it is supposed to be" instead of really feeling it.

After all, most reproductive organs are only barely developing at that age... girls only just start to menstruate, boys only just start to get testosterone and other stuff....

I don't think that just because it happens (way too) often, it means that it is natural, or a good thing.

That's correct, the vast majority of 12-year-olds are incapable of seeing the long-term implications of their actions. That doesn't mean the decision should be made for them. Barring actions that carry with them life-threatening consequences, the law has no right to dictate what other people do with their bodies. At 12 I couldn't see the long-term implications of eating so much unhealthy food - should the law then prevent me from making the choice to eat bad food?

The fact that it happens so often proves that it's natural. In fact humans are hardwired to have sex as soon as they are able. It's natural, no doubt about it, but within a social structure it is unnecessary and a very poor course of action. What the law is doing here is punishing people for giving in to their natural urges. It's preferable they don't give in to those urges, but that is an entirely personal matter which is best dealt with between family and friends.

Originally Posted by AlmostGodess

My main issue here was with rape and I was just wondering how come the fact that rape is an often offense can be a justification for it.

Statutory rape is a sham and is not rape at all.

Originally Posted by AlmostGodess

Protecting somebody's life is just as important to as protecting their physical and psychological integrity or sexuality, isn't it?

Yes, but protecting someones life is straight-forward. How do you go about devising a system of protecting someone's psychological and sexual integrity and working within the boundaries of freedom and personal choice? If a 14-year-old has sex with a 20-something because he/she "loves" them, by what authority can you step in and tell them that their feelings are false and what they're doing is immoral and illegal? I'm not by any stretch saying it's right to encourage this kind of behaviour, but outlawing it is a poor knee-jerk reaction to the "icky" factor and doesn't solve anything. The law here isn't just a violation of personal freedom, it's also just blatantly ineffective.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I'm sure this happens millions of times in third world countries and nobody hears about it. I don't think a 12 year old giving birth is a good thing, but it's been happening since the beginning of time. Sure, it's illegal today, but ranting about it on this forum is not going to change anything. These things are going to continue to happen until the world as a whole gets to the point that these things simply go away, through some kind of consciousness revolution, which is slowly underway, although not quite where it needs to be yet.

Give it another 100 years or less, and I pray that these things just don't happen anymore. It's wrong, but if the person who impregnated her was her age as well, it is simply ignorance or carelessness that led to this, or even the fact that most kids that age don't know the consequences of their actions. I hope things end up okay for everyone involved, and bet of luck to them.