Is rap degrading to women?

[CroMagna]

Please vote.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Some of it is, some of it isn't. There are some awesome female rappers, especially internationally. Anna Tijoux, Keny Arkana. Spoken word artists like Ursula Rucker blast that superficiality right out of the waters.

YouTube - Ursula Rucker - For Women

Depending on what you listen to, you could have entirely different views of rap.

[elucidate]

I agree with Laks. Some are, some aren't...it all depends on the person rapping.

I think these days there are more conscious, intelligent rappers who are interested in getting more positive messages out there via the spoken word, but there are still people of a lower energy density, who don't know any better and think they are being cool.

[arpee]

In general, no rap is not degrading to women. Rap is about like, rock in a way. They both are about being happy with yourself and saying "screw you" to people that don't like you.

The male rappers talk about how they get the cars, money, girls, how they are important rich and how you should feel that way too and make yourself happy. And the female rappers talk about how they can be independent and do stuff on they own because they don't have to be dependant on a man.

[NDN Scholar]

As others have said, it depends on the rappers. You can't just brush aside an entire genre of music in one broad stroke. It's similar to racism, except used against music. Like... like "musicism." Heh heh. But seriously, I listen to songs about single-parent mothers, fatherhood, struggles associated with poverty, racism, non-violence/redemption, etc. I also got a whole lot of awesome love songs, too. Sexism in music isn't something I'm fond of.

A lot of commercial rap nowadays is awful. If you're ever looking for any sort of meaningful songs in any genre, don't turn on the radio. You won't find any there.

Originally Posted by arpee

The male rappers talk about how they get the cars, money, girls, how they are important rich and how you should feel that way too and make yourself happy. And the female rappers talk about how they can be independent and do stuff on they own because they don't have to be dependant on a man.

That's a very big generalization you made towards male and female rappers. It is false.

[elucidate]

That's a very big generalization you made towards male and female rappers. It is false.

I thought so too.

Beyonce are the only ones I've heard who talk about being financially independant, and J Lo. There are heaps of themes rappers talk about besides these ones.

[James81]

You can't degrade someone without their permission.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

You can't degrade someone without their permission.

I think this is PD-talk. I read an article that made this argument, but it was written about black slavery in england in the 1700s.

You most certainly can degrade people without their permission, but don't expect to be taken seriously or listened-to.

[Velorien]

Curses, beaten to it.

But let's not confuse attacking someone's self-esteem with taking more practical steps. I could be a strong woman with a clear sense of self who will never allow herself to be degraded. However, if my boss listens to a lot of particularly sexist rap and decides (consciously or otherwise) that women are inferior as a result, and holds me back from promotion for being a woman, then I have still suffered from rap being degrading to women.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

I think this is PD-talk. I read an article that made this argument, but it was written about black slavery in england in the 1700s.

You most certainly can degrade people without their permission, but don't expect to be taken seriously or listened-to.

Originally Posted by Velorien

Curses, beaten to it.

But let's not confuse attacking someone's self-esteem with taking more practical steps. I could be a strong woman with a clear sense of self who will never allow herself to be degraded. However, if my boss listens to a lot of particularly sexist rap and decides (consciously or otherwise) that women are inferior as a result, and holds me back from promotion for being a woman, then I have still suffered from rap being degrading to women.

To continue working there (or to choose not to make use of the Equal Rights laws) is to allow him to degrade you.

Where you see degradation, I see an opportunity...either an opportunity to exercise your power as a woman or an opportunity to leave behind a crappy working condition and find a job where you have a boss who doesn't live in the Stone Age.

You can still validate the fact that what he did sucked hardcore, without choosing to degrade yourself over it.

[Velorien]

James, you're missing my point. As far as I can tell, you're saying that an environment in which the degradation of women is encouraged doesn't matter because an individual woman can always choose to allow herself not to be degraded. I am saying that this is not true for all environments.

Let's move from rap to religion for a second. In countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran, deviating from traditional gender roles (which assume the inferiority and degradation of women) does not get you held back from promotion. It gets you imprisoned or executed. Some women might have the opportunity to leave that environment by emigrating. Others, such as young girls in the power of their families, will not.

What is the opportunity here? To sacrifice everything you have, potentially up to and including your life, in order to stand up for your moral right not to be degraded? Some might make that choice. Some might not. But wouldn't it be better not to allow the creation of such a degrading environment in the first place, rather than force countless women to deal with the consequences of institutionalised misogyny? That is the issue we are dealing with when we consider whether rap is degrading to women.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Velorien

James, you're missing my point. As far as I can tell, you're saying that an environment in which the degradation of women is encouraged doesn't matter because an individual woman can always choose to allow herself not to be degraded. I am saying that this is not true for all environments.

Let's move from rap to religion for a second. In countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran, deviating from traditional gender roles (which assume the inferiority and degradation of women) does not get you held back from promotion. It gets you imprisoned or executed. Some women might have the opportunity to leave that environment by emigrating. Others, such as young girls in the power of their families, will not.

What is the opportunity here? To sacrifice everything you have, potentially up to and including your life, in order to stand up for your moral right not to be degraded? Some might make that choice. Some might not. But wouldn't it be better not to allow the creation of such a degrading environment in the first place, rather than force countless women to deal with the consequences of institutionalised misogyny? That is the issue we are dealing with when we consider whether rap is degrading to women.

Let me ask you something. The situation in those countries is what it is. That is, you can't STOP that environement from being created in those countries, because it's already been created. That's the "reality" (so to speak).

Do you think it's effective to focus on the injustice of the whole thing, to focus on how it should've never been created in the first place?

Or would it be more effective for the women in those countries to make their stand...to make their sacrifice...to band together as one and decide that they are not going to live like that anymore?

Look at what happened in America with the feminist movement. Do you think that was easy for those first women to rise up like they did? No, not at all. They had to overcome lots of resistance, they had to face dire consequences. But our generation of women get to enjoy the fruits of that.

All because a group of women banded together and decided that they wanted something more, even if they had to fight for it...even if they might not have gotten to enjoy it like our generation gets to enjoy it.

Take the work of Victor Frankl, a man who spent a few years in a Nazi concentration camp -- a place in which countless people were stripped of every possible piece of humanity that could be stripped from them. But Frankl observed, that even in the face of such inhumane circumstances, that those who survived did so because they recognize what he called the last human freedom: the ability to choose your response and your perspective on what is happening to you.

If we take it back up to the perspective of rap...that music exists...you don't have to expose yourself to it, but even if you ARE exposed to it, you don't *have* to believe it. You can believe something else.

I've even, personally, taken certain types of music that were designed to create a particular emotion and transformed the way that music occured to me. I mentioned country music in another thread and how, back when I was really into it, I found myself depressed.

Well, in recent years, I've taken certain country songs and have found ways to be inspired by it. There's a song by Toby Keith called She Never Cried in Front of Me that used to make me sob like a schoolgirl with regret because it reminded me of me and my ex-wife.

Now when I hear, I feel goosebumps. Because I associate that song with the times in the gym when i was on the treadmill and I'd hear that song, and I would push myself just a little harder. And I associate it with a daily dance challenge I did last year where I danced in inspiration to that song. Good stuff. Good stuff.

[Velorien]

Originally Posted by James81

Let me ask you something. The situation in those countries is what it is. That is, you can't STOP that environement from being created in those countries, because it's already been created. That's the "reality" (so to speak).

Do you think it's effective to focus on the injustice of the whole thing, to focus on how it should've never been created in the first place?

Or would it be more effective for the women in those countries to make their stand...to make their sacrifice...to band together as one and decide that they are not going to live like that anymore?

The effective step comes in preventing the creation of further such environments. Being aware of what does and does not promote women-degrading attitudes is an important part of this process. I would argue that it is more helpful to emphasise building an equal society than to force each individual woman to assert her equality when challenged.

As you say, it is ineffective to complain about what already is. However, in the context of rap, the degrading attitudes it may or may not promote aren't necessarily so embedded in our society that they can only be uprooted through battle and sacrifice. There is no need to place the burden of resistance solely on oppressed women when it is possible to catch the seeds of that oppression before they take root.

Originally Posted by James81

If we take it back up to the perspective of rap...that music exists...you don't have to expose yourself to it, but even if you ARE exposed to it, you don't *have* to believe it. You can believe something else.

Granted. But this is a slippery slope. Every single citizen of Nazi Germany didn't *have* to believe Nazi propaganda. Yet enough of them did to drastically change the world for the worse. The extent to which the Jews and other minority groups believed in their power to choose their identities, and the extent to which they stood up for their beliefs, could not fundamentally change the course of history at that point.

Today, Germany has exceedingly strict laws that prevent people from preaching racial hatred, precisely because its lawmakers have learned that having faith in human nature is not a sufficient safeguard.

I don't want to support censorship, because that is an epic can of worms of its own, but I want to emphasise that when you can, you have to take steps to stop human unconsciousness from reaching a critical mass, rather than letting it explode and hoping that everyone in harm's way will be enlightened enough to cope.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Velorien

The effective step comes in preventing the creation of further such environments. Being aware of what does and does not promote women-degrading attitudes is an important part of this process. I would argue that it is more helpful to emphasise building an equal society than to force each individual woman to assert her equality when challenged.

As you say, it is ineffective to complain about what already is. However, in the context of rap, the degrading attitudes it may or may not promote aren't necessarily so embedded in our society that they can only be uprooted through battle and sacrifice. There is no need to place the burden of resistance solely on oppressed women when it is possible to catch the seeds of that oppression before they take root.

Sure, dealing with the root of an issue is always more effective than overcoming the big ole tree that grows from it.

And the root of the issue is almost always internal. Everything starts with a thought. For something like rap music, outright banning that type of music is not effective. That just creates the seeds for other ugly things to sprout up (such as underground type of culture0. You're not going to stop people from producing and consuming this stuff.

But it's more useful to ask yourself *why* this stuff not only exists, but it's popular enough to be consumed on a mass level. (They wouldn't create that type of music if people weren't buying it, after all.)

In other words, the music is meeting a demand -- a very popular demand set by our culture. To go after the music itself is not going to fix the culture that spawned it.

It's more effective, I think, to ask why people are wanting to consume this music. It's obviously moving and/or touching them on some level or it wouldn't be popular. So what is the need, in society, that isn't being met that this music fulfills (or gives the illusion of fulfilling)? That's the pertinent question.

Originally Posted by Velorien

Granted. But this is a slippery slope. Every single citizen of Nazi Germany didn't *have* to believe Nazi propaganda. Yet enough of them did to drastically change the world for the worse. The extent to which the Jews and other minority groups believed in their power to choose their identities, and the extent to which they stood up for their beliefs, could not fundamentally change the course of history at that point.

Today, Germany has exceedingly strict laws that prevent people from preaching racial hatred, precisely because its lawmakers have learned that having faith in human nature is not a sufficient safeguard.

I don't want to support censorship, because that is an epic can of worms of its own, but I want to emphasise that when you can, you have to take steps to stop human unconsciousness from reaching a critical mass, rather than letting it explode and hoping that everyone in harm's way will be enlightened enough to cope.

I think the Nazi movement changed the world for the better. It was a short-term, ultra tragedy that so many people had to die for us to get these lessons, but ultimately, we live in a better society today. And there is so much GOOD that spawned out of that. On a personal level, for me, the Nazi movement created works like that of Victor Frankl. And Victor Frankl's reflections on his time in concentration camps has very literally changed my entire life. It's helped me (and countless others) find meaning and purpose. (Google "Logotherapy" for more on that and also check out the book A Man's Search for Meaning...notice also that Frankl was quoted in Stephen Covey's The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. These works have changed and influenced millions of people. MILLIONS.)

So, be aware that out of even the worst tragedy of our times, positive and inspiring things have be created that have shaped us into who we are today.

I think that, when you can, we need to take a look at the *why* these ideas reach cricial mass. Nazi-ism wasn't just beaten into people's heads. Millions of people accepted it. And it spawned out of a society that created hardships for Germany after the first world war, and the great depression, and all of that. We like to sit back and blame Hitler and Germany for what happened in World War II. But, at the end of the day, there was a REASON why things escalated to the point they did. The society they were born into all came together to create it.

And it taught us a great lesson.

But we, as a people, are so focused on what's in front of us that we fail, so many times, to see what is underneath it all. Censoring rap music won't fix the ideas that created it. To fix that, you gotta start digging into why these people create it and why SO MANY PEOPLE enjoy it or resonate with it. Something doesn't become popular unless people resonate with it.

[Velorien]

Curses, you have taken this debate to a level on which I agree with everything you've said. My hat is off to you, sir.

Oh, and thanks for the Logotherapy mention. Having looked at the Wikipedia entry, it looks like something I might be interested in investigating further.

[Elrond]

but a rap-song ain't one.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Velorien

Curses, you have taken this debate to a level on which I agree with everything you've said. My hat is off to you, sir.

Oh, and thanks for the Logotherapy mention. Having looked at the Wikipedia entry, it looks like something I might be interested in investigating further.

Thanks, Velorien.

Yeah, Logotherapy is very interesting to me. I honestly think that the cure for depression is to find a meaning/purpose to life that rocks your world.

[Cheese96]

I think any genre of music can be degrading to anyone. So the answer is yes, but again, it depends on what rappers. There are awesome clean rappers out there.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Cheese96

I think any genre of music can be degrading to anyone. So the answer is yes, but again, it depends on what rappers. There are awesome clean rappers out there.

You mean music with lyrics, I assume? Because when people talk about degrading music, they're usually talking about degrading poetry set to a rhythm or melody, not the music itself...

[Lamusa]

A lot of rap music that you hear on the radio (do those even exist anymore? lol, I mean commercial, mainstream rap) is mysoginistic and degrading to women, all women - but black women in particular, which is interesting because that's what gets the most attention and radioplay. However, rap music is a very wide and expansive form of music with all sorts of styles and themes just like any other art form. Nate Dogg just died. Now, I gotta admit I really liked Nate Doggs style. However, his lyrics were extremely demeaning to women. So there is a sort of disconnect there for me and for most people probably.

We might say that a lot of rap music comes from a place of anger and much of this anger is directed towards women - which is pretty much a worldwide phenomenon. The roots of this anger and why so many people of all cultures and backgrounds want to purchase lots of music that does not take a critical look at this anger and violence go very deep. Its complicated. Tupac Shakur struggled with his anger towards women and reconciling that with his love and understanding for the struggles of black women. What slows the conversation down are rap artists who say yay this is what sells so eff it.

But there are people who look at these things from a much wider perspective. Lots of underground rap is where you find much more nuance with the music. That stuff is underground because lots of people right now aren't interested in supporting more creative rap music that's much more dynamic and empowering. But it exists. 90's rap music had so much more diversity and creativity to it. But as lots of the creators of rap music began to give up control of their art to people with solely business interests on their minds the people doing more creative rap became less visible. Some even gave up. Money became the rap and if it came at the cost of degrading women or glorifying violence then that was it. And if you never had much money to begin with, if you came from poverty and several generations in your family came from poverty and you saw this as a way out then you found out what worked even if it didn't completly resonate with you.

Rap music which degrades women is merely a reflection of the pathology of a society that supports the degradation of women.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

lol does anyone involved in this debate actually listen to rap? James, I don't think you do from the way you characterize an entire genre as if it is the same...personally I think that even the most degrading rap music is just an overt expression of the thought forms that most people have.

YouTube - 2Pac - Do For Love

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

lol does anyone involved in this debate actually listen to rap? James, I don't think you do from the way you characterize an entire genre as if it is the same...personally I think that even the most degrading rap music is just an overt expression of the thought forms that most people have.

YouTube - 2Pac - Do For Love

LOL, this is the second time in two days that you've assumed things about me that just weren't true. Perhaps you might just ask me this stuff instead of assuming things about me. I'm a pretty open guy. If you ask me a question, I'll most likely answer it 9 times out of 10. (I mention this because I think you have made up an image of me in your head that is not consistent with who I really am.)

Is there a such thing as rap anymore? Not like it used to be when I was a kid/teenager. Back then we had 2LiveCrew, Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer, and the classic rappers (which I was really into).

In college, I was big on Snoop Dogg, Eminem, Dr. Dre, Jay-Z (<--I still like him a lot), and DMX.

I've always had an affinity for rap music, despite my geographic location being big time anti-rap (and a father who absolutely despised it).

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

LOL, this is the second time in two days that you've assumed things about me that just weren't true. Perhaps you might just ask me this stuff instead of assuming things about me. I'm a pretty open guy. If you ask me a question, I'll most likely answer it 9 times out of 10.

Is there a such thing as rap anymore? Not like it used to be when I was a kid/teenager. Back then we had 2LiveCrew, Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer, and the classic rappers (which I was really into).

In college, I was big on Snoop Dogg, Eminem, Dr. Dre, Jay-Z (<--I still like him a lot), and DMX.

I've always had an affinity for rap music, despite my geographic location being big time anti-rap (and a father who absolutely despised it).

Yeah, that's all mainstream rap. I'm talking about the entire genre, not what is on the radio, james. It's just that, the way you talk about rap - in such broad generalizations, indicates to me that you don't have exposure to the vast panoply available.

when you say something like "why these people create it" - what people? british rappers? south african? chilean? french? russian? japanese? american? white? black? hispanic? asian? I can offer you an artist from each of these countries...world wide, international hip hop.

don't touch my penis! I am not a gay!

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Yeah, that's all mainstream rap. I'm talking about the entire genre, not what is on the radio, james. It's just that, the way you talk about rap - in such broad generalizations, indicates to me that you don't have exposure to the vast panoply available.

Well, we didn't have a hip hop station in my area until about 3 years ago. Up until that point, the only stations we had were classic rock and country. In other words, in order to listen to this stuff, I had to buy the CDs. So, I'm not saying I liked all of those people because I heard a song or two on the radio and decided to like them. I had multiple CDs (before they were stolen that is) of all those groups (and others that I haven't mentioned).

I'm not sure at what point and what depth of that type of music passes your rigid standards of acceptibility for experiencing the genre. (Or what passes for an acceptable amount of knowledge about breastfeeding for that matter. )

But that's neither here nor there. I didn't hardly talk about rap at all in this thread, so I'm not sure where the broad generalizations part came from. I've been speaking from a stance of personal development and personal responsibility. And it's not because I've only listened to Disney-esque happy la-la stuff. I've heard some pretty screwed up rap music in my time. (2LiveCrew and Eminem were two that I've mentioned that had some pretty degrading lyrics)

My point in this thread has been about choosing to be degraded by degrading lyrics. There's no question that lyrics like are in Eminem's The Marshal Mathers LP are pretty degrading in nature (Hello? "Kim"???). And 2LiveCrew was just raunchy.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

My point in this thread has been about choosing to be degraded by degrading lyrics. There's no question that lyrics like are in Eminem's The Marshal Mathers LP are pretty degrading in nature (Hello? "Kim"???). And 2LiveCrew was just raunchy.

Originally Posted by LL

when you say something like "why these people create it" - what people? british rappers? south african? chilean? french? russian? japanese? american? white? black? hispanic? asian? I can offer you an artist from each of these countries...world wide, international hip hop.

And my point is that there is rap that is not American, there is rap all over the world, and not all of these rap artists have the same agenda as...."these people."

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

And my point is that there is rap that is not American, there is rap all over the world, and not all of these rap artists have the same agenda as...."these people."

What agenda do they have?

[Johnny Metal]

"Oh noes, the mechanical wave that is an oscillation of pressure transmitted through air is degrading and victimizing me! "

It's not the music and lyrics, it's your own meaning that you've assigned to the music and lyrics what degrades you.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by James81

Look at what happened in America with the feminist movement. Do you think that was easy for those first women to rise up like they did? No, not at all. They had to overcome lots of resistance, they had to face dire consequences. But our generation of women get to enjoy the fruits of that.

All because a group of women banded together and decided that they wanted something more, even if they had to fight for it...even if they might not have gotten to enjoy it like our generation gets to enjoy it.

I would have thought standing up and saying, "Hey, certain types of rap music is degrading to women, and it needs to stop," actually IS part of asking for something more and pushing for change.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I would have thought standing up and saying, "Hey, certain types of rap music is degrading to women, and it needs to stop," actually IS part of asking for something more and pushing for change.

That's different, because you ultimately always have a choice as to what music you listen to. In order to listen to the degrading, foul rap music, you literally have to buy the CD/mp3/whatever and choose to play it. Or you have to physically choose the company of people who choose to listen to that type of music in your presence. Or you have to choose to remain the presence of someone who is influenced by that music and allow them to affect your state of being. Loads of power right at your fingertips.

For other issues, inequality was being forced on people. Very different, IMO.

[Andrew Brunelle]

Certain rap artists are very degrading to women, but not all of them. I find rap music to be very funny in its own way, especially stuff that features the funniest rap artist ever, Lil Jon. But I've never been a big fan of rap, except for maybe Tupac. He had some real talent and he used it well. There are other artists that are not as degrading to women, but I can't say I'd listen to them on a daily basis.

I guess what a lot of these rappers are doing is just rapping about what they see, what kind of world they grew up in. I don't blame them for saying what they do in their songs, but I would say a good deal of them are degrading to women, but I guess some of them might not know any better. Or they just don't care...