Egypt unrest/revolution

[supertom]

If you haven't heard, with it possibly happening across North Africa
BBC News - Egypt unrest: Alert as mass protests loom

Apparently the internets there has been cut off


I hope all the members from that area are safe and well. (coolbee)

[NDN Scholar]

Yeah, crazy things have been going on there for a while, eh? I hope the Coptic Christians are doing ok at the moment. But that aside, it would be wonderful to see the Egyptian authoritarian government cast aside in favour of a liberal democracy. I only hope that everyone involved in this whole episode will turn out to be safe when it comes to a close.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by supertom

If you haven't heard, with it possibly happening across North Africa
BBC News - Egypt unrest: Alert as mass protests loom

Apparently the internets there has been cut off


I hope all the members from that area are safe and well. (coolbee)

Thank you for posting this! I have been thinking about starting a thread about the revolting Arab world, but have been so caught up in following it in real time, I haven't had the time.

I was just going to finally post a thread about Egypt too, because today they are planning a mass protest and the government is imposing a total media blackout - not nearly just the Internet is cut off, mobile phones are also cut - every single means of contact with the outside world will be cut off today - which scares me, because I think that can only mean that they are going to massacre their people.

So I'm scared and worried for them. There have already been 7 or so deaths in Egypt since Tuesday, when it began.

I have some personal connections with several Arab countries, so I have been following this story since it began in Tunisia, where I have a friend.

Since it hasn't been mentioned, Tunisia has already overthrown its dictator and is now trying to put together a new government (protests concerning that are still ongoing BBC News - Tunisia announces major cabinet reshuffle after protest), and there were protests in Jordan. Protests in Yemen began yesterday to overthrow their government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/28/wo...rest.html?_r=1

Something disturbing is that, even though Tunisia has already overthrown the dictatorship, the United States is already sticking its nose in their business to try to manipulate the situation, I assume, to make sure they can control the new government that is put in place - which is one thing the Arabs already hate about their current governments, especially Egypt.

[Bliss Sage]

Good summary of what happened on Tuesday:

YouTube - Day of anger in Egypt

Some more background info for the revolt:

YouTube - Egypt:The Tunisian domino effect?

After "Day of Anger":

YouTube - Raw Video: Man Shot in Egypt Protest

The man speaking at the end of this video is Elbaradei, who is from an opposition party and had self-exiled himself from Egypt and has now returned to provide some leadership to the protesters. He is a promoter of democracy and won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2005.

YouTube - [EGYPT] Protesters Go Up Against Truck Mounted Water Cannon, Cairo Demonstrations 017, 25/01/2011

In the beginning, January 25th, the police greatly underestimated the size of the protest and primarily ended up letting the people protest. However, in the night, they got reinforcements and began beating and arresting the protesters and continue, now in this way.

Today, Friday, an unprecedentedly massive demonstration is being planned across Egypt and there will be a total media blackout, which is why I fear the government is going to massacre the people.

[Angela]

I'm concerned for our girl CoolBee in Cairo...

[st33med]

Originally Posted by Angela

I'm concerned for our girl CoolBee in Cairo...

Me too. I remember they blocked off Facebook and Twitter awhile back and she was using a proxy. I don't know if they blocked off the ENTIRE Internet.

But my hearts with her and I hope she will survive.

It's inevitable that the government will collapse soon.

[Bliss Sage]

They indeed shut down all four ISPs in Egypt, but people were using proxies, and, despite the governments best efforts and beatings and arrests of journalists, media coverage was great, with Al Jazeera showing a live stream of events in Cairo.

I was trying to remember who it was from the forum who was in Egypt. I'm concerned about them all and the future of the country.

[supertom]

Hopefully this spreads around to the other countries in north africa. Those young men are very brave. I would love to be there right now.

[Angela]

Hey, supertom, nice to see your supercute face!

[roxyruby]

coolbee!!!!!!!!!!!!

*tight tight hugs*

where does she live is she safe?????????????

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by Angela

Hey, supertom, nice to see your supercute face!

you're supercute Angela!

[Bliss Sage]

On the very off-chance that anyone else here is actually concerned about the country and the people, or the political future of the Middle East or the world, I think Al Jazeera (English) has very good live coverage at this link:

Al Jazeera English: Live Stream - Watch Now - Al Jazeera English

[Cochonette]

This is some scary, scary ****. Lucky me, the violent revolutions in my country happened centuries before I was born.

[danas]

Egypt is one of my favorite places in the world. I was just in Cairo last year. And just 3 months ago I was in another part of Egypt and stopped at the border and questioned bc they saw I took some photos from the taxi and wanted to know why I was taking pictures of non touristic things. They took my passport and put me in a locked room with a translator and deleted all my photos.
They didn't accept my explanation that this is art... They are a bit paranoid of the west over there. The authorities that is. Today I really said a prayer that something good will come out of this like peace in the middle east. Suddenly I thought It could happen!!

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by danas

Egypt is one of my favorite places in the world. I was just in Cairo last year. And just 3 months ago I was in another part of Egypt and stopped at the border and questioned bc they saw I took some photos from the taxi and wanted to know why I was taking pictures of non touristic things. They took my passport and put me in a locked room with a translator and deleted all my photos.
They didn't accept my explanation that this is art... They are a bit paranoid of the west over there. The authorities that is. Today I really said a prayer that something good will come out of this like peace in the middle east. Suddenly I thought It could happen!!

I hope it does. And we should support the Egyptian people if possible, but I hope foreign militaries stay out of it, because I know they're always up to no good, trying to profit their own countries.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by danas

Egypt is one of my favorite places in the world. I was just in Cairo last year. And just 3 months ago I was in another part of Egypt and stopped at the border and questioned bc they saw I took some photos from the taxi and wanted to know why I was taking pictures of non touristic things. They took my passport and put me in a locked room with a translator and deleted all my photos.

THAT is scary. What is happening now is not scary. What is happening now is encouraging and hope-giving and inspiring! Egyptians are not letting themselves be controlled by fear imposed on them by the dictator anymore.

[danas]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

THAT is scary. What is happening now is not scary. What is happening now is encouraging and hope-giving and inspiring! Egyptians are not letting themselves be controlled by fear imposed on them by the dictator anymore.

Yes. but now the movement "Muslim brotherhood" who are quite a fanatic group, want to take the leadership. That will be terrible.
But I hope you are right, and this will lead to something better.
Egyptian people are super friendly and open. But they are also scared of the government. Thats been my impression.

and yeah, it was a bit scary, they surely didnt like that I had 10 pictures of anthenas...(long story)
I offered to show him my website so he would see my other work, he just thought I was a bit nuts I guess...he kept saying "you call this art??? this is not art!" and I was like "it is...its contemporary art" ... but the translator didnt translate that I think...

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by danas

Yes. but now the movement "Muslim brotherhood" who are quite a fanatic group, want to take the leadership. That will be terrible.
But I hope you are right, and this will lead to something better.
Egyptian people are super friendly and open. But they are also scared of the government. Thats been my impression.

and yeah, it was a bit scary, they surely didnt like that I had 10 pictures of anthenas...(long story)

The Muslim Brotherhood had been repeating that they do not want any political party role in Egypt. That was what a representative of them said on Saturday, I think it was. I heard something different from them yesterday, I think. I don't know if they have entirely changed their minds, but El Baradei is on the scene now as well.

Besides, if the people have a democratic election, and they elect the Muslim Brotherhood, then that is good and has to be respected. We cannot say "We will only recognize your government and your democratic elections if you elect the party that we want you to elect."

We also don't know that it would be terrible if the Muslim Brotherhood were in the Egyptian government, especially if our only source of information on them is Western media. If their people elected them, then that is what should happen, and that's all I care about.

Everybody seems to be solely looking out for their own interests, even people who have no idea about the components of the situation or the impact they would really have, as opposed to the impact they imagine they would have. And if they imagine that the results will not be as they want, they withdraw or withhold support.

Aside from all that, though, I admit it would be scary and horrific if they began to open fire on the demonstrators - and that scene of a van driving around and running right over people was scary too.

[Anthony1973]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

The Muslim Brotherhood had been repeating that they do not want any political party role in Egypt. That was what a representative of them said on Saturday, I think it was. I heard something different from them yesterday, I think. I don't know if they have entirely changed their minds, but El Baradei is on the scene now as well.

Besides, if the people have a democratic election, and they elect the Muslim Brotherhood, then that is good and has to be respected. We cannot say "We will only recognize your government and your democratic elections if you elect the party that we want you to elect."

We also don't know that it would be terrible if the Muslim Brotherhood were in the Egyptian government, especially if our only source of information on them is Western media. If their people elected them, then that is what should happen, and that's all I care about.

Everybody seems to be solely looking out for their own interests, even people who have no idea about the components of the situation or the impact they would really have, as opposed to the impact they imagine they would have. And if they imagine that the results will not be as they want, they withdraw or withhold support.

Aside from all that, though, I admit it would be scary and horrific if they began to open fire on the demonstrators - and that scene of a van driving around and running right over people was scary too.

I totaly agree, if the Egyptian people have a truly democratic vote then whoever they elect must be seen as representing the will of the people. To often do we see western governments (esp USA and Britain) sticking their oar in where it is not wanted or needed... pushing all the capitalist greed driven ideoligies that run alongside western civilisation. After all isn't the busybody nature of western 'super powers', that our eastern cousins dislike so much.. along with sanctions that only really affect the poorest citizens?

Closer examination of the tear gas grenades hurled at protesters reads Made in USA.

enough said.

[Iceman]

Foriginers leaving daily by the thousands (News from The Associated Press) , food and water is running out (), Food staples starting to run out in Egypt - CNN.com, and major companies are shutting down their operations (http://http://blogs.wsj.com/dispatch/2011/01/31/coke-nestle-report-egypt-shutdowns/)...

Normally these things lead to a growing amount of anger, which tends to result in more violence... You remove jobs, tourism, education services, water and food, and instead add in unemployment, hunger, and looting... Not a good recipie...

Hopefully this whole thing takes a different path, but it's looking very bad right now.

[sebtanic]

Had a call with an Egyptian client today. He told me that the situation is horrible in his country. He is in Cairo. He says they can hear bullets every once in a while. The situation is very aggressive. They have to take turns with the neighbours to protect their homes, because there is no police. Lots of prisoners escaped from jail and the situatation is very insecure because of that. Ladies have been raped. The people have no money to get food, because the banks are closed, and the ATM machines are not working either. The internet is shut down, mobile phones were not working until yesterday. Only landline telephones are working. He says the Egyptian people did not deserve this, as they are very peaceful. He asked me to pray for them. I told him I wish there was something I could do for them, and that I hope for the best for the Egyptian people. May the situation change for the better soon!

(published also in my blog www.livinginthesun.net )

[Iceman]

I saw too that the government just shut down all train service... The idea being that it'll keep people out of harms way by keeping the crowds down... But that will also keep even more people trapped and keep more people from being able to get to to jobs, food, water, medical facilities, etc. Not good.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

I have been thinking about starting a thread about the revolting Arab world...

Awww, c'mon... the Arab world isn't that bad....

Seriously, though, I've been thinking the same thing.

As an American, I am truly torn on this issue.

I think back to 1979 when the U.S. totally failed to manage the situation in Iran.

Iran went from being a strong U.S. ally in the middle east, to now one of the most "difficult" nations on the globe; all because of a fundamental, populist revolt.

If the same thing were to happen in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia - all of whom are strong U.S. Allies - would likely find themselves in similar situations with increased pressure both internally and from their neighbors to disassociate themselves from the U.S.

As much as I would like for the Egyptian people to enjoy the freedoms we do as Americans, I do NOT want my country's government to weaken our position in the Middle East further by losing a currently strong ally to another fundamentalist islamic sect convinced that me and my family are Satan incarnate because we live in the U.S. and enjoy those aforementioned freedoms.

For me, it comes down to ideology vs. practicality.

Ideally, whoever takes over after Mubarak and his regime are removed will continue to maintain strong diplomatic allegience with the U.S. AND promote a truly free government "...of the people, by the people and FOR the people." However, recent events and trends would seem to indicate that is a very naive hope.

So, do we as a country, live by our own word and allow another desperately needed ally in the Middle East undergo a populist uprising and HOPE that it turns out our way, or do we throw hipocrisy to the wind and continue to support the tyrannical dictator who has supported U.S. initiatives in the region?

Blech... I hate politics....

[JSB]

It looks like Mubarak's days are numbered. Even if foreign governments throw idealist principles to the wind and embrace pure self-interest, it may be in their best interest not to been seen as supporting Mubarak too strongly. Mubarak's successor may not be a staunch ally of the US, but the two nations do have common strategic interests and it is to both their benefit to forge a working relationship of sorts.

Assuming Mubarak's successors are not Islamist radicals (and there's no current indication they will be), an understanding can be formed, but not if the US supports Mubarak, against popular Egyptian opinion, to the very end.

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Awww, c'mon... the Arab world isn't that bad....

Seriously, though, I've been thinking the same thing.

As an American, I am truly torn on this issue.

I think back to 1979 when the U.S. totally failed to manage the situation in Iran.

Iran went from being a strong U.S. ally in the middle east, to now one of the most "difficult" nations on the globe; all because of a fundamental, populist revolt.

If the same thing were to happen in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia - all of whom are strong U.S. Allies - would likely find themselves in similar situations with increased pressure both internally and from their neighbors to disassociate themselves from the U.S.

As much as I would like for the Egyptian people to enjoy the freedoms we do as Americans, I do NOT want my country's government to weaken our position in the Middle East further by losing a currently strong ally to another fundamentalist islamic sect convinced that me and my family are Satan incarnate because we live in the U.S. and enjoy those aforementioned freedoms.

For me, it comes down to ideology vs. practicality.

Ideally, whoever takes over after Mubarak and his regime are removed will continue to maintain strong diplomatic allegience with the U.S. AND promote a truly free government "...of the people, by the people and FOR the people." However, recent events and trends would seem to indicate that is a very naive hope.

So, do we as a country, live by our own word and allow another desperately needed ally in the Middle East undergo a populist uprising and HOPE that it turns out our way, or do we throw hipocrisy to the wind and continue to support the tyrannical dictator who has supported U.S. initiatives in the region?

Blech... I hate politics....

[st33med]

It is kind of a bind for the US. It could be that Egypt will turn into the new Iran with crazy leaders. Thankfully, the Muslim Brotherhood will not take over the government and make it a theocracy (there maybe some unknown element that may, but I don't believe so).


The one true thing I am worried about is if Egypt may turn into an state of anarchy, where the government that comes in has little control over it's population. Right now, that is the state it is in with no police control and the army refusing to do anything -- I mean they won't fire on anyone. Crime rates, such as rape and burglary, have skyrocketed and criminals have escaped many major cells. Pretty bleak right now for Egypt.

[danas]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Besides, if the people have a democratic election, and they elect the Muslim Brotherhood, then that is good and has to be respected. We cannot say "We will only recognize your government and your democratic elections if you elect the party that we want you to elect."

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

especially if our only source of information on them is Western media. If their people elected them, then that is what should happen, and that's all I care about.

I disagree. the Hamas were voted democratically in the west bank and they only brought more death and poverty to their ppl. they convince ppl that dying for this cause will elevate them spiritually in the next world and so life in this world doesnt really matter.
If the Muslim Brotherhood will lead that will be the end of peace with Israel most definitely. Israelis provide a large amount of tourism to Egypt, and the average Egyptian is interested in maintaining this peace...
Oh and my media sources are middle eastern...not western.

[danas]

Originally Posted by sebtanic

Had a call with an Egyptian client today. He told me that the situation is horrible in his country. He is in Cairo. He says they can hear bullets every once in a while. The situation is very aggressive. They have to take turns with the neighbours to protect their homes, because there is no police. Lots of prisoners escaped from jail and the situatation is very insecure because of that. Ladies have been raped. The people have no money to get food, because the banks are closed, and the ATM machines are not working either. The internet is shut down, mobile phones were not working until yesterday. Only landline telephones are working. He says the Egyptian people did not deserve this, as they are very peaceful. He asked me to pray for them. I told him I wish there was something I could do for them, and that I hope for the best for the Egyptian people. May the situation change for the better soon!

(published also in my blog www.livinginthesun.net )

thanks for this. I like getting info straight from the people. this sounds so terrible... its true they really are peaceful people and do not deserve this.
Ive been to Cairo 4 times and its really unbelievable. last few months Ive been editing a film I shot there and looking at the footage everyday for weeks and now suddenly that whole landscape has become a war zone

[sebtanic]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

So, do we as a country, live by our own word and allow another desperately needed ally in the Middle East undergo a populist uprising and HOPE that it turns out our way, or do we throw hipocrisy to the wind and continue to support the tyrannical dictator who has supported U.S. initiatives in the region?

If you country (or any other country, for that matter) needs to support dictatorships for its own security, does it still have the right to call itself a democracy?

[sebtanic]

Originally Posted by st33med

Right now, that is the state it is in with no police control and the army refusing to do anything -- I mean they won't fire on anyone.

Yes and it's a very good thing that the army won't shoot at their own citizens. That is what gives me hope.

There is a real chance for improvement now. If our governments support the appartent stability of the dictatorship, this will backfire in the future. The people will become more and more frustrated and in the future we will be back where we are today, but they will have lost any trust in us. Now is a good time to work with the Egyptian people and help them to install a modern and peaceful government which has the prosperity of the whole country in mind, not just of the upper class.

[danas]

Another thing Im really worried about is the Cairo Museum
One of the most amazing museums in the world IMO. If that stuff gets stolen or damaged that will be a huge loss to humanity