Egypt unrest/revolution

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by danas

Another thing Im really worried about is the Cairo Museum
One of the most amazing museums in the world IMO. If that stuff gets stolen or damaged that will be a huge loss to humanity

Already happened, unfortunately... Now the military is guarding and securing the place.

Looters in Cairo Museum Amid Egypt Protests

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by sebtanic

If you country (or any other country, for that matter) needs to support dictatorships for its own security, does it still have the right to call itself a democracy?

Of course it does.

A democracy is a government formed with the continued input of the citizens it represents.

Being a democracy has nothing to do with that government's foriegn policy.

But that's really not the point.

The point is, do we as a Nation, walk our own talk at the possible expense of our own power position?

The noble, altruistic part of me says, "Yes, of course we do."

The practical part of me says, "That's stupid. Never give your power to someone else."

So... that's my struggle with this whole thing.

[st33med]

Originally Posted by danas

Another thing Im really worried about is the Cairo Museum
One of the most amazing museums in the world IMO. If that stuff gets stolen or damaged that will be a huge loss to humanity

Mhm. Fortunately, the Army is guarding those museums. I'm not sure if they would fire on them, but I think the views of tanks and dozens of soldiers surrounding them is pretty good deterrence.

[Plays With Life]

Google set up a phone-to-tweet service for people in Egypt. There are some interesting messages from people in Egypt.

Official Google Blog: Some weekend work that will (hopefully) enable more Egyptians to be heard

Messages:
Saynow: Voice Message from Voice of Egypt
Saynow: Voice Message from Voice of Egypt

[Plays With Life]

I'm looking forward to hearing from CoolBee when she gets back online. Love you, CoolBee!

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

If the same thing were to happen in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia - all of whom are strong U.S. Allies - would likely find themselves in similar situations with increased pressure both internally and from their neighbors to disassociate themselves from the U.S.

As much as I would like for the Egyptian people to enjoy the freedoms we do as Americans, I do NOT want my country's government to weaken our position in the Middle East further by losing a currently strong ally to another fundamentalist islamic sect convinced that me and my family are Satan incarnate because we live in the U.S. and enjoy those aforementioned freedoms.

For me, it comes down to ideology vs. practicality.

Ideally, whoever takes over after Mubarak and his regime are removed will continue to maintain strong diplomatic allegience with the U.S. AND promote a truly free government "...of the people, by the people and FOR the people." However, recent events and trends would seem to indicate that is a very naive hope.

So, do we as a country, live by our own word and allow another desperately needed ally in the Middle East undergo a populist uprising and HOPE that it turns out our way, or do we throw hipocrisy to the wind and continue to support the tyrannical dictator who has supported U.S. initiatives in the region?

I find this type of self-centric, fear-based national mentality to be both annoying and offensive and uncompassionate/unhumanitarian, not to mention that I believe it in and of itself continues to perpetuate the very conditions which it fears.

As for Hamas, if the people elected them, and they did, respect it and just piss off out of the business of other countries. And don't pretend to care about a population of people, when all you are trying to do is manipulate them and their politics to ensure what you perceive to be your own security. Mark my words, your own fears of and meddling in what goes on there is perpetuating the conditions you fear, which you in turn use as justification to continue meddling. [By "you" in this post, I mean those people in power and those supporting them.]

As for Egypt, did it ever occur to anyone that Egyptians don't want to be an ally of Israel or the U.S.? At this point, all Western support for the Egyptian revolution and democracy will hypocritically break down - because they do not actually want democracy or freedom for Egyptians.

You want to impose your own will on Egyptians and in their lives just to ensure what you think is your own security (that Egyptians should sacrifice their own freedom and security so you can assuage your fears) and that is just wrong.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

I find this type of self-centric, fear-based national mentality to be both annoying and offensive and uncompassionate/unhumanitarian, not to mention that I believe it in and of itself continues to perpetuate the very conditions which it fears.

As for Hamas, if the people elected them, and they did, respect it and just piss off out of the business of other countries. And don't pretend to care about a population of people, when all you are trying to do is manipulate them and their politics to ensure what you perceive to be your own security. Mark my words, your own fears of and meddling in what goes on there is perpetuating the conditions you fear, which you in turn use as justification to continue meddling. [By "you" in this post, I mean those people in power and those supporting them.]

As for Egypt, did it ever occur to anyone that Egyptians don't want to be an ally of Israel or the U.S.? At this point, all Western support for the Egyptian revolution and democracy will hypocritically break down - because they do not actually want democracy or freedom for Egyptians.

You want to impose your own will on Egyptians and in their lives just to ensure what you think is your own security (that Egyptians should sacrifice their own freedom and security so you can assuage your fears) and that is just wrong.

This may seem like an off-topic question, but do you believe in limiting personal ownership of firearms?


History is full of examples where a laissez-faire or pasification attitude resulted in

[frajilthunder]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

I find this type of self-centric, fear-based national mentality to be both annoying and offensive and uncompassionate/unhumanitarian, not to mention that I believe it in and of itself continues to perpetuate the very conditions which it fears.

As for Hamas, if the people elected them, and they did, respect it and just piss off out of the business of other countries. And don't pretend to care about a population of people, when all you are trying to do is manipulate them and their politics to ensure what you perceive to be your own security. Mark my words, your own fears of and meddling in what goes on there is perpetuating the conditions you fear, which you in turn use as justification to continue meddling. [By "you" in this post, I mean those people in power and those supporting them.]

As for Egypt, did it ever occur to anyone that Egyptians don't want to be an ally of Israel or the U.S.? At this point, all Western support for the Egyptian revolution and democracy will hypocritically break down - because they do not actually want democracy or freedom for Egyptians.

You want to impose your own will on Egyptians and in their lives just to ensure what you think is your own security (that Egyptians should sacrifice their own freedom and security so you can assuage your fears) and that is just wrong.

Excellent post. Very well stated.

I'm hoping Obama will finally come out and ask for Mubarak's departure. I'm realizing he's not the idealist I once foolishly believed. I know he has legitimate concerns; the leaders of all US allies in the Middle East are waiting to see if Obama will throw Mubarak under the bus, realizing it could happen to them down the road, and that will affect any cooperation we hope for. Even so, Obama is risking the loss of credibility here. Bohner has already called for Mubarak to step down (which of course is all part of the game).

[danas]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

As for Hamas, if the people elected them, and they did, respect it and just piss off out of the business of other countries. And don't pretend to care about a population of people, when all you are trying to do is manipulate them and their politics to ensure what you perceive to be your own security. Mark my words, your own fears of and meddling in what goes on there is perpetuating the conditions you fear, which you in turn use as justification to continue meddling. [By "you" in this post, I mean those people in power and those supporting them..

It is my business and this is my country. I'm ( or my family and friends) are the ones who run to the shelters when the Hamas sends missiles. Not you.
Also I am the one who lives next door to Egypt which is only a bus ride away, and have crossed that border maybe 30 times in tge past 20 years, so I think I am entitled to my opinion as a resident of this region. I pray for peace bc this all effects my daily life. And besides I am half Egyptian. My father was born there... My family lived there for hundreds of years actually, until Israel was established.
The middle east is a complicated place and definitely not so simplistic as you put it...
Both the Israelis and Egyptians want peace with each other . The people that is. But it's a complicated relationship. For intance Israelis can go to Egypt freely but Egyptians can't come here bc their government won't allow them ( although legally they can )

[supertom]

Mubarak’s Allies and Foes Clash in Egypt
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/wo...t/04egypt.html

When they say allies i think it should be hired goons

[supertom]

Foreign journalists were beaten with sticks and fists by pro-government mobs on Thursday, and dozens were detained by security forces in Egypt

Journalists attacked, detained in Egypt - Yahoo!7

[CoolBee]

Hello everybody - thank you for your concern and messages above

I have been back online about 3 days but as you can imagine have spent mammoth amounts of time catching up emails, skyping folk, trying to do things with credit cards and fighting banks and credit card companies who think my activity is 'suspicious' etc.

I'm fine and well where I am in Cairo.

Our internets were cut almost completely on the Thursday night and were off for 5 days. No amount of proxies would work! One tiny ISP was on but very few people could access it. I even tried dialup. You could get a connection but I think they closed the DNS references, I tried a few random selections of the direct numbers but got nowhere.

All mobile phones were cut for 24 hours. Luckily, there was a rumour I picked up an hour or two before it happened and I got my landline number through to my mother and sister. My line won't do international dialling and in any case I believe they cut international access off. My mum and sister took turns at calling me every 12 hours and my sister posted on my Facebook wall so if anyone thought to look there who is on my friends they could see an update.

They restored mobile phone access after 24 hours BUT no text messages have been received by any Egyptian mobile phone for over a week now (with one exception - google vodafone egypt uk government intervenes if you're interested). Fortunately, my UK mobile has been able to send and receive texts but at quite a cost - luckily a friend topped me up from the UK! Phone credit (we use scratchcards in EGypt) has been very very difficult to come by so everyone has been saving their credit. Fortunately, I am rare in having a landline tariff that allows me to call mobiles.

Anyway, I won't say anything about what has happened this week (a) because I am all talked out - never had so many phone calls in one week before!!! It's been like Picadilly Circus somedays - none stop calls and (b) because the Egyptians need to work this out for themselves.

All I will say is that this is NOT a class struggle. People from the same social cluster - education/background/professional status - have widely different views on who they support and what should go on. Nor is it about religion.

Enough said!!!!!

I want to thank you all again for your messages - also it really hit some of us home how much time we normally spend on the net, how much we rely on it for communcations generally.

Big hugs and kisses alround - I am safe and well.

If you pray or intend or 'clean' - focus on a happy future for Egypt - focus on forgiveness.

[moonrambler]

I'm glad you updated us, CoolBee, I've been wondering about you!

[supertom]

Yay, Its good to know your safe and well !!!!

[Plays With Life]

I'm happy to hear from you, CoolBee.

I wonder if there will be some grassroots community networks set up. Wireless community network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've been curious about this kind of system. It would make a lot of sense in a place where internet access may be cut off. It would at least allow people to continue communicating on the local network. If there were a cross-border link with someone in another jurisdiction who had an active internet connection, it could also provide the possibility of continued access during an Egypt-wide outage.

[danas]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

focus on a happy future for Egypt - focus on forgiveness.

I will!

Good to hear from you!

[Brutha]

I wonder if there will be some grassroots community networks set up. Wireless community network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The events of the last one and a half year made open source people wake up. When they tried to shut the internet off in Iran the open source infrastructure did work with TOR. The Iranians were pretty incompetent and only blocked IPv4 traffic and IPv6 went through.
It however needed technological expertise to use the tools.

People are used to communication via central nodes such as twitter or facebook.
Diaspora might be a decentralized system that could replace facebook/twitter in a year. Diaspora could be made to work in a way that would allow it to continue to operate on a local network in case the central internet is cut off.

It's also my understanding that the "free" nets that exist can only exist because they contain a lot of nodes where the owner of the router doesn't know that the router participates in the network.

Our internets were cut almost completely on the Thursday night and were off for 5 days. No amount of proxies would work! One tiny ISP was on but very few people could access it. I even tried dialup. You could get a connection but I think they closed the DNS references, I tried a few random selections of the direct numbers but got nowhere.

Look at Google Public DNS for an alternative DNS provider.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by Brutha

The Iranians were pretty incompetent and only blocked IPv4 traffic and IPv6 went through.

lol.

Originally Posted by Brutha

It however needed technological expertise to use the tools.

People are used to communication via central nodes such as twitter or facebook.

Agreed. A community network / community networks around the country wouldn't provide widespread, user-friendly access. But at least there would be a few points of access here and there. People with access could take messages and pass them on. Someone with the right equipment could set up a wifi network for their local neighborhood to connect to, and all of those people would then be points of access for everyone they know.

Originally Posted by Brutha

Diaspora might be a decentralized system that could replace facebook/twitter in a year. Diaspora could be made to work in a way that would allow it to continue to operate on a local network in case the central internet is cut off.

Nice. I remember we were talking about just this idea here on the forum.

[Brutha]

Someone with the right equipment could set up a wifi network for their local neighborhood to connect to, and all of those people would then be points of access for everyone they know.

The distance that a wifi signal can travel isn't that big.

If Berlin would be cut of from the internet then we have people who know how to build a network.
A while ago I was chatting to someone from the Berlin community network project Freifunk and we didn't really had a WLan connection.
Unfortunately there was no Freifunk node in the neighborhood. Maybe we should create a node? After all you might need a zero day to hack a computer and install the software. At the moment he had no zero day, but he said that he might organise one.

At the end we created no Freifunk node.

Given that experience I think that the network needs a lot of involuntary nodes to function. WEP is broken, WPA just got broken as well. A lot of people leave the standard password on their routers.

You have people in a few Western cities like Berlin who think that they need to prepare a fall back internet. We have local people who try to create their own currency.
It's however not easy to push all those nice resilient communities ideas on some developing country.

On Twitter EFF cofounder John Perry Barlow wrote today:
#Wikileaks is the first battleground of the Great Infowar. The Arab Awakening is the second. There will be more.
Creating a way for local communities in states like Egypt to avoid getting censored by the government is certainly on the agenda but at the moment the technology isn't there.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by Brutha

The distance that a wifi signal can travel isn't that big.

Well, if you're thinking that it couldn't replace the country's internet service, I agree. I wouldn't be trying to replace the country-wide internet service with community networks.

But it only takes one person in a community with access to the internet to provide the whole community with an access point. People in the community could just swing by that person's house and ask them to send a message. It wouldn't be ideal, admittedly, but in a situation like this you take what you can get. It would be better than nothing.

The few people who maintain access points could also establish relationships with independent reporters who want to get their message out. I think the large media outlets must have their own communications tech, since news was coming out. But some people prefer these more "grassroots" news organizations. Those orgs probably don't have devoted communications technology. They would probably appreciate having a relay person available who could get messages out to the world.

[CoolBee]

Re the using an alternative DNS thing - my broadband is a USB dongle - and I tried before using OpenDNS (when I first lived here, the net useage wasn't so savvy so the provider's DNS had problems with UK based sites for example). BUT as soon as I connect, it deletes any settings I put in and reverts to its own.
Can I set them in the browser (Mozilla)?

[CoolBee]

I do think it's time for folk to take this seriously though - see this article:

Obama 'Internet kill switch' plan approved by US Senate panel

so much depends on internet activity nowadays, time to distribute the arrays somehow.

Last time I looked (a while ago, I admit) every piece of internet traffic in the world passed through 1 or more of just 13 global nodes. Maybe it's a few more now, but worth noting.

One cable was cut (accidentally) in the Mediterranean Sea a couple of years ago and large parts of Africa, The Middle East and India were cut off completely.

@PWL - a lot of the large news organisations have satellite telephones and internet connections I think. I did look a year ago into that and having a satellite internet connection was not only quite slow but phenomenally expensive for an individual - something like $1500 per MONTH

[Brutha]

But it only takes one person in a community with access to the internet to provide the whole community with an access point.

I don't think you get the idea of a community network.
On single access point won't have internet when it can't connect to other access points.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by danas

It is my business and this is my country. I'm ( or my family and friends) are the ones who run to the shelters when the Hamas sends missiles. Not you.
Also I am the one who lives next door to Egypt which is only a bus ride away, and have crossed that border maybe 30 times in tge past 20 years, so I think I am entitled to my opinion as a resident of this region. I pray for peace bc this all effects my daily life. And besides I am half Egyptian. My father was born there... My family lived there for hundreds of years actually, until Israel was established.
The middle east is a complicated place and definitely not so simplistic as you put it...
Both the Israelis and Egyptians want peace with each other . The people that is. But it's a complicated relationship. For intance Israelis can go to Egypt freely but Egyptians can't come here bc their government won't allow them ( although legally they can )

I wholeheartedly disagree. Geography does not entitle anyone to dictate to another country who should lead their country. Moreover, I have little sympathy for a nation which is carrying out genocide on a people whose land it has invaded and continues to occupy and settle on against international law and countless UN resolutions. Never mind the fact that precious few of those missiles actually do any harm. They are a joke, especially when pitted against Israel's tanks, F16's and white phosphorous bombs and all other U.S.-funded weaponry, legal as well as illegal, which Israel with global acceptance and impunity uses against trapped and impoverished Palestinian civilians.

Moreover, what does Hamas have to do with Egypt? Nothing. This is about Egypt. It's quite likely that Egyptians don't like the idea of their government participating in the murder and on-going suffering of their Palestinian neighbors, which Mubarak has been doing.

P.S. Hamas won the vote in Gaza, not in the West Bank.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

This may seem like an off-topic question, but do you believe in limiting personal ownership of firearms?

Yes, it seems off-topic.
I don't know, I've never thought about it. I don't think I care about that issue.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by Brutha

I don't think you get the idea of a community network.
On single access point won't have internet when it can't connect to other access points.

I don't think you get what I'm envisioning. If someone on the community network had an active internet connection, it could be made available to everyone on the network. The "single access point" I'm talking about is a single access point *to the community network*. The community network itself has multiple nodes, not all of which are access points for community members, and at least one of which has an active an internet connection.

The internet connection would be on a node outside of Egypt. As I said in my post above -

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

If there were a cross-border link with someone in another jurisdiction who had an active internet connection, it could also provide the possibility of continued access during an Egypt-wide outage.

Once that system exists - which wouldn't take a whole lot of nodes - then you only need one person in a community who has access to the community network to provide the whole community with a single access point to the internet.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Yes, it seems off-topic.
I don't know, I've never thought about it. I don't think I care about that issue.

I think in similies and anaolgies. To me, this is similar to the concept of "gun control".

In the U.S. we have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. And yet the proliferation of firearms causes some of us to question the practicality of such a policy.

So, as a nation, a people and a culture we must decide between our own perception of security, and the right to act freely that is enshrined in our constitution.

We continue to struggle to stike a balance between the idealism of freedom (in one case to own a firearm and in the other to allow an allied country to oust the regime which made us an ally) and a perceived security (in one case the belief that limiting personal ownership of firearms will reduce the number of guns in the general populace and thus make everyone "safer" and in the other case, backing a regime which disregards the foundational ideology that our nation was founded on in order to possibly maintain both a strategic and tactical political advantage in a desparately destabilizing but economically important region).

I suppose that in the end, we will find some middle ground somewhere. But what I described above is the foundation of my personal conflict.

So, if you are offended by that, then I guess that's your issue, not mine.

[Brutha]

I don't think you get what I'm envisioning. If someone on the community network had an active internet connection, it could be made available to everyone on the network.

There's no network unless you have a high node density in the first place.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by Brutha

There's no network unless you have a high node density in the first place.

Two devices connected by a networking technology makes a network.

[Brutha]

Two devices connected by a networking technology makes a network.

Being able to communicate over a few hundred meters (or less) isn't very useful.