UK approves sex under false pretenses for intelligence gathering

[secrets0stolen]

Undercover police cleared 'to have sex with activists' | UK news | guardian.co.uk

One of the spooks had a four year relationship undercover!

[beast]

It's slimey, but I'm not sure it should be illegal any more than this should be illegal: Israel Jails Arab for Bedding Jew Under False Pretenses | The Atlantic Wire

Criminalizing lying for sex seems like a pretty dangerous slippery slope.

[Canadian]

"...whose undercover deployment infiltrating anti-racist groups lasted from 1993 to 1997."

Wouldn't it have been better to inflitrate racist groups?

[beast]

Originally Posted by Canadian

"...whose undercover deployment infiltrating anti-racist groups lasted from 1993 to 1997."

Wouldn't it have been better to inflitrate racist groups?

Yeah, and I wonder what they got on the environmental activists, too.

I may have to revise my opinion after thinking about this more.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Canadian

"...whose undercover deployment infiltrating anti-racist groups lasted from 1993 to 1997."

Wouldn't it have been better to inflitrate racist groups?

Yeah, that's what I thought. That's even slimy than I thought they would go...

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by beast

Yeah, and I wonder what they got on the environmental activists, too.

I may have to revise my opinion after thinking about this more.

Yeah, it was a activist board I'm on that led me to this article. They were pretty pissed over there.

(That particular board happens to have a very feminist slant as well.)

[beast]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

Yeah, it was a activist board I'm on that led me to this article. They were pretty pissed over there.

(That particular board happens to have a very feminist slant as well.)

It's a tricky one. I don't believe that lying for sex should be a crime (I'm not even sure if it should be a crime to lie about your STD status, though forging documents related to STD testing maybe ought to be). I am not sure if that opinion can hold up with regards to undercover cops, though. I'll have to think about this and read more.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by beast

It's a tricky one. I don't believe that lying for sex should be a crime (I'm not even sure if it should be a crime to lie about your STD status, though forging documents related to STD testing maybe ought to be). I am not sure if that opinion can hold up with regards to undercover cops, though. I'll have to think about this and read more.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Emotionally, it's skeevier to me that they're undercover cops, but we let cops do incredible amount more than we let normal people do, and give them more leeway when they do break the rules. So, making this a crime would not be at all consistent with cultural values as a whole.


I hate cops that infiltrate activist circles period.

[BillyTheAdult]

My opinion. I don't think lying for sex should be illegal, it's pretty sleazy but it's an issue for the people involved. Lying about STD status, definitely should be illegal. Where I live has one of the highest incidence of STD's in the country. Just sitting here right now I can think of nine people I know with genital warts that all originated from one source, that's just the ones who didn't manage to keep it a secret so there's probably more. It's not like those people stopped having sex so they are all spreading it now too So there can be potentially hundreds or thousands or of cases of an STD from just one origination point. It effects you for the rest of your life and all because someone didn't have the balls to lose a little face in front of someone, although removing the stigma attached to them would probably do a lot to help.

As for it being legal for an undercover to use sex, i am completely against it. I think it was probably happening anyway, so they just went ahead and said it was officially okay. But think of the implications involved, what if a cop gets an STD from this? What if they give someone one, what is the liability involved? So then your boss starts asking you about you STD status, well that's an invasion of privacy to the cop. It also brings up the question of it being sanctioned to have sex as a profession. So are we going to legalize prostitution because it's okay for cops, professionally? (not to start debate on the ethics of prostitution, just to bring up the point.) It is just a huge can of worms that doesn't need to get opened.

[mikej]

Don't you think the title of your thread is a little misleading?

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by mikej

Don't you think the title of your thread is a little misleading?

In what way?

[Brutha]

Wouldn't it have been better to inflitrate racist groups?

Infiltrating right wing groups is generally easier than infiltrating left wing groups.
Left wing people are idealistic which makes it harder to bribe them to become informants.

There also the additional problem that's mentioned in the article that it would be suspicious in some left wing groups to refuse to have sex with other members of the group.

[faithsdaddy]

On the one han.....

Nah screw it. Gonna go for the jugular-

Uk law really is as bad as you read it is. It's all about the letter of the law. There is no spirit of the law anymore. My wife got 6 points and a big fine because an administrational error on her insurance said she wasn't insured. She proved she was, but the filth (that's one of their nicknames) didn't care. There are many cases of people driving recklessly and killing people who get off more easily.

But as bad as the police are, the PC brigade are FAR worse. It's getting so that schools aren't taking kids for trips anymore, because they are worried about getting sued. The fire brigade were forced to let someone drown because their supervisor was worried they would get blamed if anything went wrong.

People are becoming more and more selfish and I don't like to see it.

I'm not proud of my country. The only mitigation I can offer is that I'm not like this.

[mikej]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

In what way?

It makes it sound like we passed a law sanctioning this sort of behaviour.

On second thoughts, I'm being pedantic so please disregard my comments

[BillyTheAdult]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

In what way?

Because although one undercover agent claims in was sanctioned, it was officially denied. The phrase lack of guidelines was also used which implies some kind of ambiguity.

This is just a clarification of what I believe Mikej was getting at and not any kind of commentary.

[beast]

BillyTheAdult, do you think it should be a crime to not disclose your STD status, even if it has not come up in conversation with your partner?

[BillyTheAdult]

Yes.

[beast]

I think that would really prevent a lot of people from getting tested about their status, and only intensify the stigma against STDs.

[Cochonette]

Having sex with them is not the crime; infiltrating peaceful activist groups for obnoxious reasons when you are being paid with their tax money is a better candidate for the crime.

[BillyTheAdult]

Originally Posted by beast

I think that would really prevent a lot of people from getting tested about their status, and only intensify the stigma against STDs.

Well we can only speak in speculation and vagaries here but I don't it will keep a socially responsible person from getting themselves tested. I think the kind of person who is so unconcerned as to not be tested is likely not reveal their status to partner anyway. But once again this is all based on generalization and not facts. It is already specifically illegal in at least 34 states and the ones it isn't against a specific law still prosecute it under other preexisting laws who's scope have been widened to deal with this problem. Criminal transmission of HIV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

[BillyTheAdult]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Having sex with them is not the crime; infiltrating peaceful activist groups for obnoxious reasons when you are being paid with their tax money is a better candidate for the crime.

Both these things seem pretty criminal to me. But there is more to it than that. These groups (some of whom stand for issues I personally believe in) are not all nonviolent.

[beast]

I am not decided on whether I support laws criminalizing the transmission of STDs, though. I can see both sides of the issues, but I do not like the idea of criminalizing illness.

I doubt most people get tested after every single sexual encounter.

But, I digress.

[BillyTheAdult]

The illness would not be criminalized. The intentional spreading of it would. When it comes to the preventable spread of deadly disease the first persons right to privacy is trumped by the second persons right to, uh....be alive.

[NSS]

If "sex under false pretenses" was a crime more than half of those aged 18-25 would be in jail.

[Servina]

Secrets, that's funny you should bring the Mark Whatisname farrago up. I was reading about it last night because he actually infiltrated them in The Sumac Centre in Nottingham. It's a vegan place if you're interested.

How dare those police officers say "Uh yeah, they were promiscuous (what on earth does that mean anyway? It's like something you'd hear from a Victorian judge) and that makes it ok to lie to them." for that, read "Uh yeah, they thought differently to us, so they're just a bit of meat, not someone's daughter/mother/sister. Who cares? Let's shag 'em anyways and lie through our teeth, because we just can't keep it in our pocket and as professional police officers, we think social control through the power of our wangs is a really great idea."

The thing I really.....really love about that article though, is the tone from the officers of "Yeah, we sleep with the activists, but we don't enjoy it Guv'nor. It's work." It's a bit like saying "yeah, we work in a hospital and seduce the patients through lies. But hey, it's good for them." Seedy seedy seedy.

It's the most unprofessional thing I've ever heard. How can the police possibly keep credibility with duffers like that working for them? I mean.. are they having some sort of weird Mata Hari fantasy about spying?

Maybe they could take those giant boobies off their heads for five minutes. Then they might be able to stop thinking about them. Idiots.

I don't think the UK government approves of the activities of said officers, but it certainly makes you shudder to think about it.

[elucidate]

As slimey as it is though, if you really think about it from their point of view, it makes sense to do this...and spies have always done this...female spies especially.

Seducing someone and then talking with them after sex is the best way to get them to let their guard down and speak about stuff they ordinarily wouldn't.

It's sneaky but that's their job!

[votoshka]

Couple of things I don't like... errm saying that "if you're not promiscious you don't fit in" when I'm sure not EVERY member of the group is promiscious (some must surely be in monogamous relationships??)... it's sort of like making an excuse...

It's also sucky to think of getting into a relationship with a person, thinking there was something "real" there, and then discovering it was all a lie! I mean, yeah I guess it happens all the time... but these are police and are supposed to be professionals, not jerks!

[NewSimon]

Originally Posted by faithsdaddy

...the PC brigade are FAR worse. It's getting so that schools aren't taking kids for trips anymore, because they are worried about getting sued.

I think you're confusing political correctness with health and safety legislation.

[faithsdaddy]

Originally Posted by NewSimon

I think you're confusing political correctness with health and safety legislation.

No. I was saying that although H&S is bad, political correctness is worse.

It really is too. I could see this country collapsing within 10 years.

[aelle]

I'm surprised that so many people oppose "sex under false pretenses" to be criminalized. In many legal systems, it's already the case - deception implies an absence of consent, and deceiving someone in order to have sex is rape. As you can imagine it's not nearly as often considered for prosecution as other forms of absence of consent, but the letter of the law is there.

As for this particular story, I'm not sure which I find more sleazy - that intelligence officers deceived their sexual and romantic partners, or that it was part of their job. Can you imagine being expected to sleep around for your job?