OKCupid - Race Matters

[Cochonette]

As if the Arizona shooting doesn't tell you...

here is a report by OKCupid from 2009:

How Your Race Affects The Messages You Get OkTrends

White men get more responses. Whatever it is, white males just get more replies from almost every group. We were careful to preselect our data pool so that physical attractiveness (as measured by our site picture-rating utility) was roughly even across all the race/gender slices. For guys, we did likewise with height.

Men don’t write black women back. Or rather, they write them back far less often than they should. Black women reply the most, yet get by far the fewest replies. Essentially every race—including other blacks—singles them out for the cold shoulder.

Doesn't that just brighten up your day?

[scorpio1980]

Ok.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Doesn't that just brighten up your day?

Yes, thank you very much

[supertom]

That doesn't surprise me at all, lightness has been seen beauty and good, whereas darkness is always ugly and evil. White people dont even like having brown eyes

Even within races its like that, epically indian cutlure try finding a brown main actor in a bollywood movie.

whats really gonna freak you out is watching hollywood tv series and movies the white main cast all have have green/blue/grey eyes while the support actors all have brown/black eyes.


Its just one of those things

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by supertom

That doesn't surprise me at all, lightness has been seen beauty and good, whereas darkness is always ugly and evil. White people dont even like having brown eyes

Even within races its like that, epically indian cutlure try finding a brown main actor in a bollywood movie.

whats really gonna freak you out is watching hollywood tv series and movies the white main cast all have have green/blue/grey eyes while the support actors all have brown/black eyes.


Its just one of those things

D-d-d-damn! I knew that brown-eyes= less attractive (irrational belief, imposed on myself) came from somewhere...

[elucidate]

Yeah it's weird. People associate the color brown with ♥♥♥♥♥ or something...and therefore it is inferior?

White is associated with purity, and is therefore superior?

The funny thing is, that if you put a dark skinned person and a light skinned person in the desert...the dark skinned person would survive better, due to the pigment in their skin, which is why it is there in the first place, to cope with the climate of the persons origin.

So really, dark skinned people are superior to us in that way!(;

[Brutha]

It's the nature of online dating the first impression is formed through all sorts of stereotypes.
Tall man get more replies.
Poor men get less replies.
Beautiful women get a lot of replies.
Tall women get less replies.

If you wanted to get judged by something more substantial than maybe online dating isn't the right thing for you.

The funny thing is, that if you put a dark skinned person and a light skinned person in the desert...the dark skinned person would survive better, due to the pigment in their skin, which is why it is there in the first place, to cope with the climate of the persons origin.

So really, dark skinned people are superior to us in that way!(;

If you live in a desert. If you don't and don't get as much sunlight than white skin lets more sunlight through and you can produce more vitamin D.
Being adapted to living in open areas Africa doesn't help you when you live modern city life outside of Africa.

[James81]

I'm not physically attracted to black women. Does that make me racist?

[Lionman]

This stuff just means that a person of the hardest ethnic minority has to work say 10% harder in the dating game. That equates to just a few more conversations and a barely noticeable increase in effort to find someone suitable.

The statistics are very interesting though to see what's going on in the collective unconsciousness. Particularly interesting to see how middle eastern women get the most replies from white guys... it might have something to do with Dubai being the new cool place to live for the affluent and ambitious.

Originally Posted by James81

I'm not physically attracted to black women. Does that make me racist?

What about Rhianna?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lionman

What about Rhianna?

She's attractive. She just doesn't do much for me. My preference is really fair skin and blonde, straight hair. Even darker white people (tan) aren't as attractive to me as fair-skinned women are.

Not that these people are ugly or anything. Actually, now that I think about it, I remember thinking Vanessa Williams was extremely attractive at one time.

I think my arching point is that I wonder if it's really a matter of "because they are black" as the first post suggests or if it's really just a matter of personal preference?

[Lionman]

Yeah, I'd say it's personal preference across the board and nothing to do with racism.

Ah, the bittersweet taste of brutal honesty... I also find that certain races have less women on average that do it for me physically, although there's always exceptions, they just tend to be rarer.

My top 5 are Italian, German, Swedish, Brazilian, Russian (in that order)

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by James81

She's attractive. She just doesn't do much for me. My preference is really fair skin and blonde, straight hair. Even darker white people (tan) aren't as attractive to me as fair-skinned women are.

Not that these people are ugly or anything. Actually, now that I think about it, I remember thinking Vanessa Williams was extremely attractive at one time.

I think my arching point is that I wonder if it's really a matter of "because they are black" as the first post suggests or if it's really just a matter of personal preference?

This is the same problem in the feminist discussion. You try to reduce it to a personal issue. Though, to be fair, that article does, too. But, yes, it's because they are black. You said yourself you don't find black women attractive because they're dark rather than fair-skinned. I'm not saying it's necessarily racist, that a personal preference is somehow hateful, but I have no doubt that there's some sort of systemic racism that results in such preferences. Why do you prefer fair skin? It might have to do with the fact that fair skin is valued as more aesthetically pleasing in our society, due to centuries of racism. It's true that in the U.S. a lot of white women like to tan, but still lighter-skinned black people are seen as less black and more white, racially speaking, than darker-skinner black people. That gets you farther in this world.

Of course there are also lots and lots of black people who have racial preferences. But again, ultimately, the preferences come to be skewed in favor of white people more so than other races. Some of it might be explained in terms of ethnic connection (since whites are a majority, more people would be familiar with their culture), but obviously not all of it - you could explain that for the power of white men, but not for the reason black women are found so unattractive across the board, even by black men.

Racism is not always a conscious thing.

Like... I was standing in line yesterday and noticed two people wearing a purple winter hat. One of them was female and the other male. Both wore black for the rest of their clothing. My intuitive reaction was to think that the male looked weird and less aesthetically pleasing in the purple hat while the female did not. In reality? I think that's just because we're taught that purple is feminine, and so men don't wear it as often as women do. There was nothing else weird about it. This was entirely an unconscious reaction that I would have to make a conscious effort to change.

Likewise, I suspect that if you wanted to, you could change your preference for fair skin, but you seem satisfied with it. I think having a preference is fine in and of itself, but you can't deny that aesthetics is shaped by racism.

[jasmineY]

I thought racism was a solved issue especially in The States.

[Lionman]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

... but I have no doubt that there's some sort of systemic racism that results in such preferences.

Hrmm, well in the mainstream clubbing scene, women often go for black guys for at least a one night stand... and oriental guys for example don't seem to get much either longterm or shorterm.

It's fairly well known that the groups with the hardest time in the dating scene are black women and oriental men. So if we're talking about racism why single out black women and oriental men? What systemic racism would do that in your opinion?

If I were to hazard a guess it would be a view that black women are more masculine and oriental men are less so, as a whole. Apparently oriental men have a harder time putting on muscle than other races due to some biological configuration for instance.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by Lionman

Hrmm, well in the mainstream clubbing scene, women often go for black guys for at least a one night stand... and oriental guys for example don't seem to get much either longterm or shorterm.

It's fairly well known that the groups with the hardest time in the dating scene are black women and oriental men. So if we're talking about racism why single out black women and oriental men? What systemic racism would do that in your opinion?

If I were to hazard a guess it would be a view that black women are more masculine and oriental men are less so, as a whole. Apparently oriental men have a harder time putting on muscle than other races due to some biological configuration for instance.

Nope, black women are not more masculine and oriental men are not more feminine. They are just perceived so in the West, in part because black women are generally bigger and have deeper voices and Asian men are generally smaller and have lighter voices, and you are totally buying into these stereotypes.

I thought racism was a solved issue especially in The States.

Certainly not.

[Brutha]

Of course there are also lots and lots of black people who have racial preferences.

According to the OkCupid data black men have similar preferences against black women as white men.

But again, ultimately, the preferences come to be skewed in favor of white people more so than other races.

According to the article that you linked to above white women have it worse than Asians, Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, Indians, Middle Eastern women and "others".

It seems that you yourself have a strong biases about what the data should look like.

If this is completely about racism (hatred of a race) than why do woman prefer white men over all other races while men don't prefer white women over all other races?

[Lionman]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Nope, black women are not more masculine and oriental men are not more feminine. They are just perceived so in the West, in part because black women are generally bigger and have deeper voices and Asian men are generally smaller and have lighter voices, and you are totally buying into these stereotypes.

Well testosterone does cause everyone to get a deeper voice during puberty. Men get deeper voices due to much higher testosterone being secreted during puberty. I'm not saying this means anything though.

If you're interested there's an article called Race Genetics and Human Reproductive Strategies... it goes into racial differences in testosterone etc.

*edit* The above article is probably very controversial. I don't necessarily endorse the findings or anything but I like to have a broad scope of views to hold an opinion on something. I'd like to also emphasize that any stereotype or research into large scale group patterns isn't fair to the individual because everyone's different but this is not the nature of the discussion, it's about large scale group patterns.

[scorpio1980]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Yeah it's weird. People associate the color brown with ♥♥♥♥♥ or something...and therefore it is inferior?

White is associated with purity, and is therefore superior?

The funny thing is, that if you put a dark skinned person and a light skinned person in the desert...the dark skinned person would survive better, due to the pigment in their skin, which is why it is there in the first place, to cope with the climate of the persons origin.

So really, dark skinned people are superior to us in that way!(;

We could also go as far to say that if you put the same 2 people in a colder climate that the light skinned person would survive better. The light skinned person will naturally produce more vitamin d through sunlight exposure than the dark skinned person. Seeing how important vitamin d is to your health, this is very important. So actually neither is superior, because of skin color they both have advantages in different parts of the world.

[Brutha]

and you are totally buying into these stereotypes.

Then provide a better explanation why Indian women have better chances than white women while at the same time Indian men have worse chances.

[BillyTheAdult]

While the data may be true, I'm not about to date according to what is perceived as politically correct instead of what I'm attracted to. I know it's not what the data suggest but all of children of friends of mine are mixed race. Mostly, like over 50%, parented by black women and white men. This is no coincidence as I know a few men who have preferences for black women. I actually decided a while back to give up caring about this issue. I felt very at affect by the fact that so many black men were so open about their preference for white women. But I myself have a preference for white and Asian women (I'm white)and I certainly wouldn't want to be judged for it. I do prefer lighter women even amongst white women but I think this is because I perceive more olive women as having been to tanning beds, and therefore being very "fake" people. That's not necessarily true so I maybe I should be more aware of it, but thats just how it seems to me.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by supertom

whats really gonna freak you out is watching hollywood tv series and movies the white main cast all have have green/blue/grey eyes while the support actors all have brown/black eyes.

Check out LOTR. All the good characters (except the dwarf, who is not meant to be pretty because he's a dwarf) have light eyes. All the bad characters have dark eyes.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Then provide a better explanation why Indian women have better chances than white women while at the same time Indian men have worse chances.

Because a lot of people are buying into those stereotypes. Physical traits, in my experience, signal something to the unconscious about abstract ideas. What those things mean are largely a result of cultural/environmental passive programming, and in rare cases deliberate self programming. In my experience, that can influence attraction a lot.

History backs me up on this one: pale and plump at one time signaled rich and dainty in women. These days thin and tan signals fun and quasi-athletic, while pale and thin tend to signal waifish (submissive) and classy.

That's not to say that there isn't individual variation or broad-scale biological factors, but that cultural whispers have something to say about our attraction as well.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Check out LOTR. All the good characters (except the dwarf, who is not meant to be pretty because he's a dwarf) have light eyes. All the bad characters have dark eyes.

WTF

Dwarfs are beautiful

Originally Posted by Billy

While the data may be true, I'm not about to date according to what is perceived as politically correct instead of what I'm attracted to. I know it's not what the data suggest but all of children of friends of mine are mixed race. Mostly, like over 50%, parented by black women and white men. This is no coincidence as I know a few men who have preferences for black women. I actually decided a while back to give up caring about this issue. I felt very at affect by the fact that so many black men were so open about their preference for white women. But I myself have a preference for white and Asian women (I'm white)and I certainly wouldn't want to be judged for it.

I'm not sure the point is to tell us that 'we are bad people' due to our preferences. Its not meant to tell us to date other people we are not actually attracted to. The point is for us to consider the possibility that our culture shapes our sexual attraction at a subconscious level and to discuss that possibility.

To be honest, I read the study and I wasn't overly impressed by the methodology and the conclusions made by those methods. The sample is biased. That doesn't mean the conclusions are wrong. It just means that this study does not provide adequate evidence for the conclusions.

[Brutha]

History backs me up on this one: pale and plump at one time signaled rich and dainty in women. These days thin and tan signals fun and quasi-athletic, while pale and thin tend to signal waifish (submissive) and classy.

I don't think it makes much sense to claim racism as the issue of males finding women with a deep voice less attractive.

It actually truthfully signaled being rich.
When we talk about unfair racism I think we are mainly talking about signals that aren't truthful.

Males have a deeper voice than woman. More testosterone deepens the voice. I don't see how using a deep voice as a signal for masculinity equals racism.
I understand deconstructivism a bit but that's still quite a stretch.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Brutha

If you live in a desert. If you don't and don't get as much sunlight than white skin lets more sunlight through and you can produce more vitamin D.
Being adapted to living in open areas Africa doesn't help you when you live modern city life outside of Africa.

Well yeah...it was a hypothetical you know

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by scorpio1980

We could also go as far to say that if you put the same 2 people in a colder climate that the light skinned person would survive better. The light skinned person will naturally produce more vitamin d through sunlight exposure than the dark skinned person. Seeing how important vitamin d is to your health, this is very important. So actually neither is superior, because of skin color they both have advantages in different parts of the world.

True.

[BillyTheAdult]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I'm not sure the point is to tell us that 'we are bad people' due to our preferences. Its not meant to tell us to date other people we are not actually attracted to. The point is for us to consider the possibility that our culture shapes our sexual attraction at a subconscious level and to discuss that possibility.

If it is not to at least subtly imply that things should be different than they are then why bring it up at all? If there is no problem then why do I need notice these subconscious patterns. I think it depends how you mean culture specifically. Do you mean images presented to me through the media, or more like the experience of being out and about in America (or where ever?)

[Marth]

I don't like this study at all or any race to dating fact sheet. And I lost a lot of respect for okcupid.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Marth

I don't like this study at all or any race to dating fact sheet. And I lost a lot of respect for okcupid.

Why?

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

If it is not to at least subtly imply that things should be different than they are then why bring it up at all? If there is no problem then why do I need notice these subconscious patterns. I think it depends how you mean culture specifically. Do you mean images presented to me through the media, or more like the experience of being out and about in America (or where ever?)

So we can explore who we are as human beings within the context of culture and society. So we can be open to choice. So to use SOS’s example: is her belief that brown eyes are unattractive an internal belief that she shaped on her own or did she pick it up from her external environment? If she can trace the origins of that belief, will that empower her to think otherwise and to be open to choice? (Sorry for speaking about you in the third person SOS - what you said just seems like the easiest way to convey my point ).

Culture can include popular media, but it can also include shared values and beliefs expressed through traditions, rituals and institutions.

That idea is to enable choice. It is not to impose a new standard upon the old. Otherwise, it would be just as probematic.