AZ. 1070 bill update

[desertrat]

A federal judge tossed out parts of Arizona s 1070 immigration law Brewer to appeal judge's immigration ruling Thursday Arpaio's 'Operation 1070' coincides with law taking effect . Tucson lawmaker withdraws call for Arizona boycott what that is left will go into effect thursday . desert rat

[russianrocket]

I never understood one thing. If they are here legally, would they not have a license? A license should be plenty to show who they are, as long as their license is real, and can be found in their system with a matching photo of them in the computer. If they don't have a license, well then you can check to see if they are legal. If they don't have a license, they shouldn't be driving, and there for don't have a right to liberty in that instance. And how is banning illegals from congregating in public areas looking for jobs, against the constitution?

[mityno]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

And how is banning illegals from congregating in public areas looking for jobs, against the constitution?

Because illegals seem have more rights here than American citizens.

[velvet1]

Originally Posted by mityno

Because illegals seem have more rights here than American citizens.

Its funny because in other countries its not allowed, its only in the USA. Illegals think people that are not on their side, are being prejudicing. The government allows it because its cheaper labor, and its all about the money.

I remember one new story were they fired 100+ people in this Mexican super market because the company had been found for having illegals. A bunch of citizens and legal people went to apply because they needed the job. One of the reasons I moved out of AZ because its hard to find a simple job. Moved out of that state and found a job in less than a month. In AZ I had been looking for a job for a simple job for a year and nothing.

[Brutha]

The link seem to miss the justification for the ruling.

If they don't have a license, well then you can check to see if they are legal.

If I read the linked articles right the law requires them to have a license. If you argue that their status can also be checked through the computer data base than that's a valid reason to strike down the section that requires them to carry the license around.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Brutha

The link seem to miss the justification for the ruling.
If I read the linked articles right the law requires them to have a license. If you argue that their status can also be checked through the computer data base than that's a valid reason to strike down the section that requires them to carry the license around.

In my opinion, I just can't seem to see the justification of some parts of the law. Mainly, because I believe we NEED this law, but I also feel that you shouldn't be pissing off the legals either. To many laws don't fix anything. In my state, to get a license, you need to show your legality. And when you get your license, you get a digital photo of you put into the system, which is also put on the license. Am I missing anything in what I'm saying, or wouldn't carrying around your drivers license be enough of a way to check someones status, as well as not having one on you, being something that no one can argue against?

Personally, I do not like the whole " pull everyone over for every little infraction" thing, because over here, they use that as justification to essentially tax you for driving. Every little things gives you a ticket, and their reason is always that they some times pull over a murderer or someone with drugs . So I CAN see why legal Hispanics would get a little pissed off at this, and in my case, I'm not having my legal status questioned. I think there are many ways to use the law to arrest and deport illegals, but I also think they went at this the wrong way. They are just pissing too many people off. It's just not subtle enough. Then again, I don't live in an area that has that bad of an illegal problem, so I don't think I'm allowed to have an opinion, as my opinion won't technically effect my life.

On another note, I was listening to the radio, and an ad for a politician came on, and he said how when he's elected, he plans to bring the Arizona bill to our state. First thing I thought was " oh man, political suicide". It will be interesting to see if enough people are effected by illegals, to counteract the huge population of Hispanics here, who have voting status.

[desertrat]

To drive in the state of Arizona or any where in the U.S.A. you need a valid drivers lic. People visiting from Mexico can drive here if they have a valid drivers lic. Some here illegally have some one create fake papers and ids. Many just come here and drive with no drivers lic. and no insurance. Arizona and many American states require insurance . The agrument I would make with any one disagreeing with laws like the ones in 1070 , lets say your car gets hit from from some that has no id no insurance , is illegal , the nice police man says " there is nothing I can do ". Even in Mexico if they catch some one from other parts of central or south America they kick them out . Many of the people that come here are decent hard working people , and I wish there was a beter way . desert rat

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by desertrat

To drive in the state of Arizona or any where in the U.S.A. you need a valid drivers lic. People visiting from Mexico can drive here if they have a valid drivers lic. Some here illegally have some one create fake papers and ids. Many just come here and drive with no drivers lic. and no insurance. Arizona and many American states require insurance . The agrument I would make with any one disagreeing with laws like the ones in 1070 , lets say your car gets hit from from some that has no id no insurance , is illegal , the nice police man says " there is nothing I can do ". Even in Mexico if they catch some one from other parts of central or south America they kick them out . Many of the people that come here are decent hard working people , and I wish there was a beter way . desert rat

I don't know about Arizona, but here, we have uninsured motorist coverage. So in your scenario, there really would be no difference. So, what I suggested will still work.

If their photo ID drivers license is from out of this country because they are visiting, then they also should be required to show proof of legality. If they have fake papers, then what difference does that make to the cop? If the fake is good enough to fool the cop, then congrats to him. If it's not good enough to fool the cop, then he'll be arrested, right along with the person with no drivers license and no papers. Someone who is here legally, with a legal license, should not need to provide paperwork AS LONG AS their in the system. There are MORE then enough illegals out there to catch, with out having to really go deep into the search. Just make the law more resident friendly, while still allowing police to arrest illegals.

[desertrat]

I might not of used the best of examples , you can buy full coverage insurance. Libabily is all that is state required. People do get arested for making fake ids and papers . The current US law requires any one visiting from a foreign country to have a passport . desert rat

[codenamesmiley]

This poet here, speaks volumes about that ACTUAL problem, here.

YouTube - Apollo Poetry - Fear vs Love

[Brutha]

In my opinion, I just can't seem to see the justification of some parts of the law. Mainly, because I believe we NEED this law, but I also feel that you shouldn't be pissing off the legals either.

The question whether you believe you need this law or don't doesn't have much bearing to whether a court should rule it unconstitutional or shouldn't.
At least when you want to live in a state with the rule of law.

[AaronB]

Originally Posted by codenamesmiley

This poet here, speaks volumes about that ACTUAL problem, here.

YouTube - Apollo Poetry - Fear vs Love

Wow thanks codenamesmiley! I didn't expect to see something so beautiful in this thread. I love Mexicans soooo much it's crazy. The one time I was in Arizona meeting some people and every one was late. I had no food for the night at my camp site. And then an illegal Mexican immigrant invites me over, and gives me all the chicken I want. He starts sharing everything he has with everyone around him. Everyone else turned him down. He was such a beautiful loving person.

And economies and governments keep running around trying to control the effects of fear, which can never really be controlled. They can only be let go. Why do people want to judge them. What makes one person illegal? Isn't it only a government? The idea that we need to be controlled? Throw away the government, and then no one is illegal anymore. If there was a movement to get rid of the government in a peaceful way, to get rid of all the borders we draw on the map, one based on love and acceptance, that's a movement I would join.

I burned all my identification, in recognition that there is no organization on this planet that has any say over me or any other human being. They have power like a bully has power, but they have no relationship with me. I'm grateful for anyone who has ever done anything to dismantle any organization that attempts to dominate people.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by AaronB

Wow thanks codenamesmiley! I didn't expect to see something so beautiful in this thread. I love Mexicans soooo much it's crazy. The one time I was in Arizona meeting some people and every one was late. I had no food for the night at my camp site. And then an illegal Mexican immigrant invites me over, and gives me all the chicken I want. He starts sharing everything he has with everyone around him. Everyone else turned him down. He was such a beautiful loving person.

And economies and governments keep running around trying to control the effects of fear, which can never really be controlled. They can only be let go. Why do people want to judge them. What makes one person illegal? Isn't it only a government? The idea that we need to be controlled? Throw away the government, and then no one is illegal anymore. If there was a movement to get rid of the government in a peaceful way, to get rid of all the borders we draw on the map, one based on love and acceptance, that's a movement I would join.

I burned all my identification, in recognition that there is no organization on this planet that has any say over me or any other human being. They have power like a bully has power, but they have no relationship with me. I'm grateful for anyone who has ever done anything to dismantle any organization that attempts to dominate people.

You had one good experience with an illegal alien. Good for you. This is still a country, and there are still rules and money and peoples lives involved. This isn't about FEAR. This about REAL events. Terrorism is about fear. What we are seeing happening now, is real. Try getting into Mexico illegally, and lets see how they treat you. If we had no borders, then the economy would collapse. Illegals are illegal, because they came here illegally. My family worked very hard and waited years and did tons of paperwork to get here legally. Why don't you go look up prison population and crime rates for illegal aliens? Or how many car accidents have been caused by them? I can go on and on about why you are wrong, and your way of dealing with things would never work in our modern society but I see that your emotions have taken over, and there is no getting through to someone who's turned off their logic centers.

[AaronB]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

You had one good experience with an illegal alien. Good for you. This is still a country, and there are still rules and money and peoples lives involved. This isn't about FEAR. This about REAL events. Terrorism is about fear. What we are seeing happening now, is real. Try getting into Mexico illegally, and lets see how they treat you. If we had no borders, then the economy would collapse. Illegals are illegal, because they came here illegally. My family worked very hard and waited years and did tons of paperwork to get here legally. Why don't you go look up prison population and crime rates for illegal aliens? Or how many car accidents have been caused by them? I can go on and on about why you are wrong, and your way of dealing with things would never work in our modern society but I see that your emotions have taken over, and there is no getting through to someone who's turned off their logic centers.

My emotions have taken over. Which emotion is that? Really really liking Mexicans? Really liking everyone? Really liking everything about the world I live in? It just sort of took over. But hey, why not? What emotion took you over? It looks like a less fun one to me.

Fear is always logical. It always comes with reasons. There's a million different degrees of fear. From fearless, to the conspiracy theorist. One trusts everyone, one trusts no one.

Somewhere along this line, there's you! And the point that you pick feels perfectly appropriate to you. It feels like you have the reasonable amount of trust, and the reasonable amount of fear.

FEAR is always about REAL events. Terrorism certainly is about fear. Though you might say more appropriately terrorism is something that YOU are afraid of. I'm not. For me terrorism is not about fear. It's about relationship. It's a form of communication. It's a really abrupt one, but hey we gotta start somewhere. I prefer terrorism to a complete lack of communication. Things could be worse, at least SOMETHING is getting expressed here, and something is always better than nothing.

In the end I believe all paths lead to everyone becoming really good friends, even if it means someone has to kill my whole family just to get to know me. I love people. They are all really beautiful to watch if you give them a chance.

When you say my emotions are taking over, and suggest that I have turned off my logic centers, there is something true about that. I have turned off my fear center. What on earth is there to be afraid of? Nothing. Nothing bad has happened yet, should I really fear that something bad is going to happen for the first time in all eternity tomorrow? That would require more faith than I am able to muster.

[floslib]

The problem with the Arizona law, before parts of it were struck down by the courts, was that it required police officers to conduct unwarranted (and unconstitutional) searches of people in the country. Before the search, they had no way of knowing if the person was here legally or illegally, or citizen or not a citizen. Which means that, if you make such a distinction, the police would be legally obligated to violate the rights of law abiding citizens in order to enforce the law. See a problem here? I do.

The Constitution was written specifically to protect the rights of people who are law-abiding, and even those who have been convicted are supposed to retain minimal rights in case they are later found to be innocent so they can be released as undamaged as possible. When you understand that this is the purpose behind the document, it makes sense. It's better to let the guilty go free than to punish the innocent.

[russianrocket]

You must be proud of those mexicans you love so much.

YouTube - Anti White, Anti American, Anti Arizona SB 1070 protesters desecrate American Flag

[floslib]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

You must be proud of those mexicans you love so much.

YouTube - Anti White, Anti American, Anti Arizona SB 1070 protesters desecrate American Flag

As you said above, we are a country with rules and laws, and we must follow them. The highest of those sets of rules and laws is the Constitution. The Arizona law was designed to deal with a real problem, but it did so in a way that violates the laws of our land. We can't have that. We've already had too much of that in things like the Patriot Act.

If Arizona wants to create a law to allow them to deal with the illegal immigration problem, power to them to do so. But it absolutely must be Constitutional.

Also, I would like to point out that, assuming they were here legally, what those Mexican protesters were doing is protected under the first amendment. Though I disagree with what they were doing, they have every right to do it. Sometimes, people feel to make a point they have to react with malice. That's part of why we have this problem. We, as a country, have reacted with malice towards illegal immigration, and some of those who feel they are slighted by that reaction (including some legal immigrants and other Latino citizens who may feel connected to their brethren) are responding in kind.

We won't get anywhere by pretending we're right, they're wrong, end of story. You have to learn to understand them, what motivates them, and work with them to come up with a good solution for all involved.

[Brutha]

If Arizona wants to create a law to allow them to deal with the illegal immigration problem, power to them to do so. But it absolutely must be Constitutional.

A very simple way is to increase the punishments for businesses that hire illegal immigrants.

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

If they are here legally, would they not have a license? ... If they don't have a license, well then you can check to see if they are legal. If they don't have a license, they shouldn't be driving, and there for don't have a right to liberty in that instance.

If they're driving without a license, they can be detained. If they cannot be ID'd, they can be passed over to ICE for removal proceedings. No new law needed.
If they aren't driving, they must identify themselves to a police officer who is conducting a valid investigatory stop based on reasonable suspicion of some other crime being committed. The new law would modify it to allow police to stop individuals when they have reasonable suspicion that they are an illegal alien. It is a mystery to me how a police officer can get reasonable suspicion of any status crime...

And how is banning illegals from congregating in public areas looking for jobs, against the constitution?

Well, to ban illegal aliens, we'd have to figure out who is who. That's a bit difficult since current Supreme Court precedent doesn't require a person to show ID or even give their name absent an articulable suspicion of criminality. Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada (2004). Unless we say that being brown and speaking Spanish give rise to an articulable suspicion, then we can't very well screen people out.

As to what freedoms protect congregating in public: freedom of assembly, freedom of association, freedom of travel.



What are the justifications for the law? I hear two usually. One, that illegal aliens are taking jobs that Americans need. Two, that illegal immigration is illegal, and illegal things should not be done. Are there others that I'm missing?

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by ThoughtAddict

If they're driving without a license, they can be detained. If they cannot be ID'd, they can be passed over to ICE for removal proceedings. No new law needed.
If they aren't driving, they must identify themselves to a police officer who is conducting a valid investigatory stop based on reasonable suspicion of some other crime being committed. The new law would modify it to allow police to stop individuals when they have reasonable suspicion that they are an illegal alien. It is a mystery to me how a police officer can get reasonable suspicion of any status crime...



Well, to ban illegal aliens, we'd have to figure out who is who. That's a bit difficult since current Supreme Court precedent doesn't require a person to show ID or even give their name absent an articulable suspicion of criminality. Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada (2004). Unless we say that being brown and speaking Spanish give rise to an articulable suspicion, then we can't very well screen people out.

As to what freedoms protect congregating in public: freedom of assembly, freedom of association, freedom of travel.



What are the justifications for the law? I hear two usually. One, that illegal aliens are taking jobs that Americans need. Two, that illegal immigration is illegal, and illegal things should not be done. Are there others that I'm missing?

3, crime

[Brutha]

Two, that illegal immigration is illegal, and illegal things should not be done.

If you are a state than you should either prevent illegal things from happening or legalize them.
Otherwise people who break the law have an advantage over people who stay within the law. You don't want that those immigrants who go through the official procedure are worse off than the immigrants who simply ignore the laws.

[desertrat]

It has been illegal to hire some one that is not in the USA legally in the state of Arizona for a few years. Employers can be fined and loose there lic. A part of the 1070 law that did go in to effect makes in illegal to hire day labor. These guys will hang around Home Depot hard ware stores and ask for temp. work, it is illegal to hire them. In the past they have had what is called a guest worker program , mostly farm labor . The guys that bring them in to the country are called coyote es . They hold them in what is called drop houses , untel they pay a bunch of money . One of the biggest problems is all the drug/gang vilance on the bordor . desert rat

[Brutha]

It has been illegal to hire some one that is not in the USA legally in the state of Arizona for a few years. Employers can be fined and loose there lic

You do have fines but they are not high enough to deter employers from hiring illegals.

[desertrat]

These people come from very poor parts of Latin America they are willing to work cheeper , get paid under the table( no tax with held) , and no health incurance . A big incentive for some employers willing to take the risk. Some take tough farm or dairy jobs that most people would not do. desert rat

[floslib]

I don't have the information on hand, but there was actually a union of immigrant workers (I think these immigrants are legal, but I'm not sure), and they offered to let any citizen who wants their job to take it. Every citizen hired is an immigrant fired. They made this offer because their job doesn't pay well, offers no benefits, and is hard labor on a farm, and they don't expect many people to take them up on the offer. As far as I know, most or all of them still have their jobs.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by floslib

I don't have the information on hand, but there was actually a union of immigrant workers (I think these immigrants are legal, but I'm not sure), and they offered to let any citizen who wants their job to take it. Every citizen hired is an immigrant fired. They made this offer because their job doesn't pay well, offers no benefits, and is hard labor on a farm, and they don't expect many people to take them up on the offer. As far as I know, most or all of them still have their jobs.

Yes, I'm sure no one would take a job at a market.
300 Illegals at Super Market in Phoenix Fired - Topix

Sure, the hard labor on farms aren't being taken, but good job using the worse possible job example. There are PLENTY of jobs that an employer would rather hire an illegal for, that there are plenty of people who want the jobs and willing to work, who ARE legal.

oh look, to prove my point, and disprove your point even more.

Hundreds seek to fill vacant positions at Pro's Ranch Market | Phoenix News | Arizona News | azfamily.com | Arizona News

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

3, crime

Ah, yes. Secondary crime.

None of the three arguments resonate with me. The first, jobs being taken by illegal immigrants, seems based on a scarcity mindset. A set amount of work (x) and a set amount of manpower (y). X=Y, but when you start getting to Y+1, Y+2, etc., there are no longer jobs available for those folks in the Y.
Thing is, I just don't see it that way. The world doesn't appear to me to have a set amount of work. In fact, the more I am willing to work, it seems the more work there is to be done...

The second, Brutha already addressed. It's a sort of circular argument. It is wrong because it is illegal. It is illegal because it is wrong...

The third, secondary crime, is a real concern if it coincides with reality. That said, I haven't seen much in the way of convincing statistics on the rates of crime by illegal immigrants vs. the rates of crime by citizens and LPRs. Much of what Brewer used to justify the bill has been firmly debunked. There is no evidence that I have seen that immigrants commit crime more often than citizens.

[desertrat]

Most of the serious, violent crime is being comited by the drug dealers, some of it here in the U.S. , but most of it in Mexico . Most of the illegal aliens come here to work and a beter life. They and there family can starve to death at home or come to the U.S. and maby find work . Cezar Chavez started the farm workers labor union in the 60s. They got higher wages , what that rely did was open the door to any one wanting to work cheper . desert rat