Yale Study: Obesity stigma is a social justice issue

[Cochonette]

Obesity stigma is a social justice issue

At first I thought the first comment was calling the person in the photo "grotesque," but then I realized it was about the fact that it's talking about a "double-chin." But the other comments...

[Thanatopsis]

There are practical reasons for obesity discrimination, public and private.

Anti-obesity discrimination legislation would be irrational.

*Braces for impact*

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by Thanatopsis

There are practical reasons for obesity discrimination, public and private.

Anti-obesity discrimination legislation would be irrational.

Well, thanks for sharing those reasons. Oh, wait - you didn't.

[Thanatopsis]

Here are a few instances where obesity discrimination is rational.

- in the hiring of employees, reason: efficiency. A fit person may be healthier, and healthier people are generally more reliable and able to handle a wider variety of tasks.

- by health insurance companies, reason: self-interest. Obese people are more prone to deabilitating illness that will empty their pockets.

- as motivation for SOME people to take better care of themselves, for many reasons.

- in health care, reason: Some physicians will not perform certain treatments if the patient is obese. I'm not in a position to question their authority.

I'm struggling to think of examples of rational discrimination of obesity in the public sector. So I'll withdraw the "public" part of my previous statement. Touche.

For me, it would be a sad day to see that kind of legislature touch the private sector.

[ar81]

Lazy obese workers face office discrimination | Reuters

Overweight people miss out on jobs and are overlooked for promotion because employers think they are lazy, according to a weight-loss organisation.

Weight discrimination common, U.S. survey finds | Reuters

5 percent of men and 10 percent of women said they had faced discrimination because of their weight -- ranging from job refusals to rude treatment in everyday life.

Obesity becoming U.S. civil rights issue for some | Reuters

Kate Harding has spent most of her life on one diet or another, losing weight but always gaining it back. Determined to improve her quality of life, she joined a fast-growing group of anti-dieting activists promoting overweight people's civil rights.

The problem is that overeating is an ADDICTION.
Why not discriminating alcoholics, addicted to internet, addicted to telephones, addicted to sex, addicted to anything...

Obesity is a health problem that must be treated like an addiction. Here is the support group. Hurting obese people only makes their problem worse as eating comes from anxiety. I wonder how is that obese people have not sued those who mistreat and discriminate them for worsening their condition with their mistreatment.

Overeaters Anonymous - Welcome to Overeaters Anonymous

[funchy]

Originally Posted by Thanatopsis

Here are a few instances where obesity discrimination is rational.

If you want to rationalize discrimination, why not legalize discrimination based on sexual orientation or religion? I'm sure I can find a study that showed AIDS infection rates are higher in homosexual men, so therefore by your logic they shouldn't be hired because they might drive up the cost of group health insurance?

- in the hiring of employees, reason: efficiency. A fit person may be healthier, and healthier people are generally more reliable and able to handle a wider variety of tasks.

Prove it. You are assuming overweight is the same as unfit. I know some "normal" weight people who can't get their lazy butt off a couch. I know some women turn to anorexia & bulimia because they're never thin enough. I personally lost a friend (who was never overweight) to long-term complications of her bulimia.

You are assuming the weight charts are right for everyone. Let me prove you wrong: take the weight and BMI of major league football players. By the standard charts, they're "overweight". Yet they'd kick your ass if you engaged them.

I've always been considered overweight based on the government chart. Even know I've never had any "obesity" diseases such as cardio problems or diabetes. I work on my small farm in my spare time, and I challenge you to put up more bales of hay in a day than I do. I'm a big girl and you know what... I am not apologizing for it.

- by health insurance companies, reason: self-interest. Obese people are more prone to deabilitating illness that will empty their pockets.

By your logic, insurance companies should discriminate against anyone who eats meat or lots of sugary food -- both are strongly linked to major diseases such as DM, cancer, and cardiovascular disease. Would you be ok if you were denied health insurance because you liked big burgers on white rolls with extra cheese?

- as motivation for SOME people to take better care of themselves, for many reasons.

Discrimination SHUTS doors. People who are turned down from employment don't have the money for gyms or fancy running shoes. If they're turned down for health insurance, will they really take better care of themselves?

What's next: let's bring back discrimination against African-Americans because it'll motivate them to work harder?

- in health care, reason: Some physicians will not perform certain treatments if the patient is obese. I'm not in a position to question their authority.

Where did you get this idea? A doctor cannot turn down an needed treatment because he didn't like his patient was fat.

It is true some surgeries & related anesthesia may not be suitable for extremely obese patients. But by the same token, some surgeries such as lap-band and bariatric bypass are done on morbidly obese all the time.

For me, it would be a sad day to see that kind of legislature touch the private sector.

Why would you find it sad that people treat either other fairly and kindly? What's next -- discriminating against people you find "ugly" to "motivate" them to get plastic surgery?

I have no right to tell you what kind of religion to be. I have no right to tell you if you're straight, bi, or gay. What gives you the right to control how other people look???

[funchy]

Here is an eye opening video which helps to explain why peoples' idea of beauty is so unattainable:
YouTube - The Evolution Of Beauty

[Angela]

So, am I hearing that people want obesity to be among the bases for federal civil rights protection? For fat people to be a protected group under the Civil Rights Act?

[CoolBee]

Here are two videos on youtube of 'someone' who was clinically obese on 11th April 2010 and merely overweight on 12th April (due to losing 1lb overnight) showing the huge difference between 'clinically obese' and 'overweight'.

Clinically obese (BMI = 30.04)

YouTube - 11thAprilClinicallyObese

Object of derision, drain on the economy, fat, stupid, lazy, unfit (actually none of those apply to the person in real life - seeing as she retired at 47, lives off her own money, and burns around 1000-1500 calories worth of exercise 3 or 4 days a week and has a PhD in hard science).

One day later, by dint of losing 1lb, person is no longer clinically obese and merely overweight - BMI 29.8
YouTube - 12thAprilMerelyOverweight

Perjorative terms no longer apply.

Obesity is very much a social issue. Egyptian women are one of the groups with the highest obesity in the world. However, the fat is just one aspect of the women. It does not hold them back. They are professor of this, doctor of that, head of the other big department. Noone would look down upon them for the 'sin' of being obese.

In the UK (and probably many other parts of northern Europe/US) being an obese female is a social sin. Being a fat female limits what you do. You don't push yourself forward for promotion, you try to hide yourself away, you start believing all those perjorative terms about fat people esp 'lazy stupid' (despite their own personal evidence to the contrary).

I know quite a lot of slim people who have almost no physical stamina. If we go out for walks or whatever, within an hour they are whinging and complaining about needing snacks, or sit downs, taxis or whatever.

[Cochonette]

Margaret Cho is a very famous comedian who used to be quite obese... she said that for a long time she couldn't get a gig because she was obese. Pretty ridiculous.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Margaret Cho is a very famous comedian who used to be quite obese... she said that for a long time she couldn't get a gig because she was obese. Pretty ridiculous.

Ridiculous? That a club owner would prefer to hire a performer who is physically attractive? There is a lot of competition for the spotlight -- is it ridiculous for someone to make the evaluation that they'll sell more tickets if the comedienne is thinner rather than fatter?

Maybe it is -- but take a look at what movies you prefer to buy tickets for. Will you go see a movie that, say, Johnny Depp is in, because you enjoy looking at him? Is it discriminating against an actor you find less attractive than Johnny if you choose the Johnny film over the non-Johnny film?

If you are interviewing two equally qualified candidates for a receptionist in your company, one is slender and the other is fat, are you practicing discrimination if you hire the one you think your clients are going to find more physically appealing (whichever one that is)? Should the person you don't hire be allowed to sue you because of your choice?

[Thanatopsis]

First, something either is or isn't logical. I don't operate under my own special rules of logic ie there is no "my" logic. And I'm not infallible; there might be an error in my thinking somewhere.

My main gripe with the negative connotation of discrimination is that at its core discrimination has been essential for the survival of humanity. By virtue of enlarged cortices, we can choose and make distinctions between people and things that can either prolong or shorten our lives. For example, if you and a chimpanzee both went to grocery store that had only rat poison and cornflakes for sale, you would be able to discriminate and pick the cornflakes. The chimp would probably choose rat poison with a frequency of 0.5. Chimps can't discriminate to the level that we can.

When you say "don't discriminate, don't choose", you relinquish years of evolution to the crap shoot inherent in a chimpanzee's game of Russian roulette.

I'm going to try to clarify my points here, funchy.

Originally Posted by funchy

If you want to rationalize discrimination, why not legalize discrimination based on sexual orientation or religion? I'm sure I can find a study that showed AIDS infection rates are higher in homosexual men, so therefore by your logic they shouldn't be hired because they might drive up the cost of group health insurance?

Among other reasons, yes I'd prefer not to hire someone with a terminal illness as an employee. Also, higher rate does not = all homosexuals are infected.

Originally Posted by funchy

Prove it. You are assuming overweight is the same as unfit. I know some "normal" weight people who can't get their lazy butt off a couch. I know some women turn to anorexia & bulimia because they're never thin enough. I personally lost a friend (who was never overweight) to long-term complications of her bulimia.

You are assuming the weight charts are right for everyone. Let me prove you wrong: take the weight and BMI of major league football players. By the standard charts, they're "overweight". Yet they'd kick your ass if you engaged them.

I've always been considered overweight based on the government chart. Even know I've never had any "obesity" diseases such as cardio problems or diabetes. I work on my small farm in my spare time, and I challenge you to put up more bales of hay in a day than I do. I'm a big girl and you know what... I am not apologizing for it.

Bulimia is a very sad illness. I hope you're doing OK.

I'm happy to hear you're comfortable with yourself!

Luckily, when hiring people for a job, we don't just get a paper application with a person's BMI listed on it. You're absolutely right: BMI does not always correlate with physical fitness. I'd think I could discriminate between those with a high BMI who are healthy and those with a high BMI who are unhealthy.

Originally Posted by funchy

By your logic, insurance companies should discriminate against anyone who eats meat or lots of sugary food -- both are strongly linked to major diseases such as DM, cancer, and cardiovascular disease. Would you be ok if you were denied health insurance because you liked big burgers on white rolls with extra cheese?

I love big burgers and extra cheese! It would be a sad day and a poor business strategy to exclude everyone who loves big burgers with extra cheese. Strongly linked does not = has DM, cancer, CV disease.

Originally Posted by funchy

Discrimination SHUTS doors. People who are turned down from employment don't have the money for gyms or fancy running shoes. If they're turned down for health insurance, will they really take better care of themselves?

They might. n=1 here, but if I was turned down for health insurance I would most assuredly be busting my ars to stay in great shape. You don't need fancy shoes or a nice gym to exercise.

Discrimination does shut doors. Usually for logical, private reasons.

Originally Posted by funchy

What's next: let's bring back discrimination against African-Americans because it'll motivate them to work harder?

Or lets give free scholarships to top universities to blacks who earned a 1200 on their SAT, denying the asian who earned a 1550 an unsubsidized spot because they weren't the right skin color. A society where merit is rewarded or a society where mediocrity is?

I can see where a lack of discrimination would lead to the latter.

Originally Posted by funchy

Where did you get this idea? A doctor cannot turn down an needed treatment because he didn't like his patient was fat.

It is true some surgeries & related anesthesia may not be suitable for extremely obese patients. But by the same token, some surgeries such as lap-band and bariatric bypass are done on morbidly obese all the time.

Every doctor has the right to refuse to perform treatments outright.

Physicians aren't slaves.

Yes some surgeries are performed on the morbidly obese. The physician determines via discrimination the risk-benefit ratio of performing a procedure.

Originally Posted by funchy

Why would you find it sad that people treat either other fairly and kindly? What's next -- discriminating against people you find "ugly" to "motivate" them to get plastic surgery?

Nice at the expense of a complete lapse in judgement? No thanks. Think about that chimp playing Russian roulette.

Ugliness is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Originally Posted by funchy

I have no right to tell you what kind of religion to be. I have no right to tell you if you're straight, bi, or gay. What gives you the right to control how other people look???

I'm really glad that isn't my job. Using my brain is though. That's what makes me a human.

[Thanatopsis]

Originally Posted by angela

ridiculous? That a club owner would prefer to hire a performer who is physically attractive? There is a lot of competition for the spotlight -- is it ridiculous for someone to make the evaluation that they'll sell more tickets if the comedienne is thinner rather than fatter?

Maybe it is -- but take a look at what movies you prefer to buy tickets for. Will you go see a movie that, say, johnny depp is in, because you enjoy looking at him? Is it discriminating against an actor you find less attractive than johnny if you choose the johnny film over the non-johnny film?

If you are interviewing two equally qualified candidates for a receptionist in your company, one is slender and the other is fat, are you practicing discrimination if you hire the one you think your clients are going to find more physically appealing (whichever one that is)? Should the person you don't hire be allowed to sue you because of your choice?

+1

[Lucidism]

Obese people shouldn't be discriminated against, however, there are situations where an obese person may not be the best choice, as in Angela's example where a person considered physically attractive by our current society could sell more tickets than someone who isn't.

I don't consider this discrimination. Is it discrimination that Hooters won't hire me as a waitress, just because I'm not a female with large breasts? I don't think so. They have an image they want to portray to the public.

But yeah... it sucks to be unfairly discriminated against. Being fat doesn't mean you're lazy or a poor worker. Though I think it is wiser for obese people to not obsess what others think about them, and instead begin to obsess about living the healthiest life they can live. If we don't have our health, it's much harder to enjoy anything else.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

Obese people shouldn't be discriminated against, however, there are situations where an obese person may not be the best choice, as in Angela's example where a person considered physically attractive by our current society could sell more tickets than someone who isn't.

I don't consider this discrimination. Is it discrimination that Hooters won't hire me as a waitress, just because I'm not a female with large breasts? I don't think so. They have an image they want to portray to the public.

But yeah... it sucks to be discriminated against. Personally, I think it is wiser for obese people to not obsess what others think about them, and instead begin to obsess about living the healthiest life they can live. If we don't have our health, it's much harder to enjoy anything else.

Well, I think it IS discrimination to pick the more physically attractive candidate/performer/movie star - just as it is discrimination to pick the cauliflower over the broccoli. And it doesn't feel fair when you're the broccoli, that's for sure.

And the question is: should obesity be a protected characteristic under civil rights law? Is that fair? If so, is it fair to protect, say, people with unsymmetrical features, or acne, bad breath, or a poor sartorial sense, too?

I'm not saying what's right here -- I'm just wondering: when does it move from being discriminating to being discrimination?

[Lucidism]

Originally Posted by Angela

just as it is discrimination to pick the cauliflower over the broccoli.

In my mind, discrimination is something that is inherently "not nice" - like not hiring someone because of their skin color. Whereas picking cauliflower over broccoli is just a choice - a poor choice, may I add - not discrimination. But your cute remark is a good point - it would seem like discrimination to the broccoli (especially since broccoli IS better suited for the job, in my mouth at least).

And the question is: should obesity be a protected characteristic under civil rights law?

No, I think not. People are born with their skin color, so it should be protected. Not many are born obese (or with genetics that make it impossible to not be obese).

[Cochonette]

should obesity be a protected characteristic under civil rights law? Is that fair? If so, is it fair to protect, say, people with unsymmetrical features, or acne, bad breath, or a poor sartorial sense, too?

Yes, it is fair. Margaret Cho, as I said, is very famous, and she has been very famous since before she started losing weight. People were judging her primarily based on her weight and ignoring what they were supposed to be hiring for - stand-up comedy. I'm not very familiar with discrimination law, so I'm not going to argue specifics. Why is it fair to judge people so incessantly based on being physically attractive, because it supposedly sells better, but not based on race or sexual orientation or ability, which also could hurt sales? Or perhaps you think that's okay, too? A lot of people do, and editors make the argument that they prefer to put less black people on their book covers for that reason, to this day. Let me give you an example to compare with yours about physically attractive people selling better (and, by the way, I object to this whole, "only some people can be physically attractive" b.s. see roxyruby's article on appearance bias for my thoughts on that). Fifty years ago, having a positive portrayal of a same-sex couple in film would not have sold well. Does that make it fair? No, it does not. I'm not saying that all the weight of justice should be on employers and high up on the hierarchy because it's also b.s. to suggest that ordinary people don't have power - constructive and destructive - as well. But just because it's not all on those high up on the hierarchy doesn't make it fair. You are ignoring systemic injustice by limiting your view to the relative lack of power of a single instance that is influenced by something much larger - society.

Another example: in the late 90s or so, Jeri Ryan was asked about why the director of Star Trek ultimately decided against Seven-of-Nine playing a lesbian role. Star Trek was known for its gender and racial inclusivity, its representations of diversity, so a lot of fans hoped they would include a strong non-heterosexual character. Ultimately, they never did and all the representations of same-sex relations were like characters who quickly died or a man in a woman's body, etc. Now, in my view, this was merely a cop-out from a show that already supports representations of diversity, with female, black, and non-American captains. We're talking about the 1990s, not 1950. One of the actors in the show was openly gay. Anyway, the director did consider giving Seven-of-Nine a same-sex relationship. Jeri Ryan's answer was something like, "I don't think America is ready for it." Around that same time, in 1997, Ellen Degeneres came out. I don't think "doesn't sell" is an issue for her.

Also, there are top-notch, popular t.v. shows with obese characters in important roles (though I don't watch a lot of television or movies, so I'm not going to give a lot of examples)... I'm thinking of a show about lawyers, I don't think it's Law & Order, but it's similar to that and my bro used to watch it... the fact that everyone has a conservative attitude in this thread is just more fodder for, well, conservatism - not social change.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by ar81

The problem is that overeating is an ADDICTION.
Why not discriminating alcoholics, addicted to internet, addicted to telephones, addicted to sex, addicted to anything...

Obesity is a health problem that must be treated like an addiction. Here is the support group. Hurting obese people only makes their problem worse as eating comes from anxiety. I wonder how is that obese people have not sued those who mistreat and discriminate them for worsening their condition with their mistreatment.

Overeaters Anonymous - Welcome to Overeaters Anonymous

Drug addicts ARE discriminated against. Not always openly but when you meet someone new and they say "I'm a heroin addict, I've been sober for 1 year etc..." many judgments are formed in peoples minds. You just can't help that. Drug addicts are looked upon as losers by large amounts of peers. I don't expect that to ever change unless the drug was legalized.

In a similar way you cannot overlook the fact that someone is so large, has trouble walking, can't breathe properly and is openly consuming huge amounts of junk food.
I have a relative who was obese (400+), he's thinner now but his breathing sounded like Darth Vader.
This is going to effect peoples reactions, how can you help that. There are people hiring workers who may think "no, I'm not listening to him wheeze all day". It's how it is. When he wanted things to be different he lost the weight.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

(and, by the way, I object to this whole, "only some people can be physically attractive" b.s. see roxyruby's article on appearance bias for my thoughts on that).

That post was largely just about how it is unfair that some people are deemed beautiful and others not. It didn't say anything as far as I could see about discrediting the theory of 'only some people can be physically attractive'. So I guess you think it's b.s. not because you disagree with its truthfulness, but because you think/feel it's unfair? (based on roxy' post).

Unless you think that people can alter their perceptions to find all or at least a lot more people beautiful, like I think roxy said she did?

[Lucidism]

I'm all for social progress, but I don't want the government enforcing the hiring of obese people. If someone can sue me because I don't hire them and they mistakenly think I don't like them because of their weight... man, what a waste of a court case it would be.

This also reminds me of an African American in my girlfriend's office. She doesn't perform her job well at all and the department wants to get rid of her. Unfortunately, she sees it coming, and filed a claim that people are discriminating against her. So, at least for now, she has her job security because the department doesn't want to face a lawsuit. She uses the laws meant to protect innocent people to hurt innocent people instead. So I'm a bit weary to hand out more legal protections to groups of people.

[Thanatopsis]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Yes, it is fair. Margaret Cho, as I said, is very famous, and she has been very famous since before she started losing weight. People were judging her primarily based on her weight and ignoring what they were supposed to be hiring for - stand-up comedy.

Although she is a stand-up comedian, I think they were hiring her for entertainment. For whatever reason, they decided that her being obese would take away from the entertainment value of the show. Flawed reasoning or not, the owner of the comedy club was within his rights in not hiring her. If you question his right to do so, then think about this:

Think of a world where every obese person carried a card allowing them to get any job they wanted regardless of qualification. It wouldn't make sense, because obesity doesn't = competence in a particular job. Would you vote for a candidate whose platform includes this policy?

Why or why not?

[ar81]

Originally Posted by joelr

Drug addicts ARE discriminated against. Not always openly but when you meet someone new and they say "I'm a heroin addict, I've been sober for 1 year etc..." many judgments are formed in peoples minds. You just can't help that. Drug addicts are looked upon as losers by large amounts of peers. I don't expect that to ever change unless the drug was legalized..

Yes. The main idea is that under effects of drugs people may become violent, and they may not perform the task at hand and he may have an altered perception of reality that is not good at work.

Also the compulsion for drugs makes people prompt to steal assets to pay for drugs. An addict to food at most would steal your lunch, not an expensive asset.

Originally Posted by joelr

In a similar way you cannot overlook the fact that someone is so large, has trouble walking, can't breathe properly and is openly consuming huge amounts of junk food.
I have a relative who was obese (400+), he's thinner now but his breathing sounded like Darth Vader.
This is going to effect peoples reactions, how can you help that. There are people hiring workers who may think "no, I'm not listening to him wheeze all day". It's how it is. When he wanted things to be different he lost the weight.

So he was not addict. Addicts to food face a big problem. unlike drug addicts who just need to stay away from drugs, food addicts can't stop eating. Those people lose weight and later they gain it again. It is compulsive, and it breaks people's will and it requires a very strong will to contain a momentary impulse.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Or perhaps you think that's okay, too?

"Okay, too?" I don't remember saying anything at all was okay.

You are ignoring systemic injustice by limiting your view to the relative lack of power of a single instance that is influenced by something much larger - society.

I am? I had no idea. I thought I was asking some questions about what people think is fair, and what discrimination should be illegal.

When you replied to my post, "Yes, it's fair," it sounds like you are saying do believe that obesity should be a protected characteristic under civil rights laws -- that it should be illegal for someone to discriminate based on obesity, and that an obese person should have legal resource if she's not hired or otherwise discriminated against because she's obese. Is that right?

I ask, because making laws is a traditional way to fight systemic injustice.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

In my mind, discrimination is something that is inherently "not nice" - like not hiring someone because of their skin color. Whereas picking cauliflower over broccoli is just a choice - a poor choice, may I add - not discrimination. But your cute remark is a good point - it would seem like discrimination to the broccoli (especially since broccoli IS better suited for the job, in my mouth at least).

You clearly have cruciferous issues.

So, the "not nice" thing. Is a person being Not Nice if one of his/her factors in choosing an employee, a date, a lover, or a friend is their physical condition? *Should* they be nice, and hire, date, have sex with and befriend people without regard to their preference? In regards to the sex thing, it doesn't seem very Nice to me to have sex with someone you're not attracted to, merely because it's Not Nice not to. It doesn't seem fair, either -- to either party. Is it Not Nice to refrain from dating people who have certain characteristics that you're not attracted to, like obesity? Isn't that just a choice, like cauliflower and broccoli? Because if it's not, then it's also Not Nice to not date people with ANY physical characteristic that turns you off. You *should* date anyone, no matter if you're turned on by them or not, and you should just *fix* any turn-offs you have, because they're bad and wrong. So a guy who is attracted only to curvy women *should fix* that, and make himself attracted to very skinny supermodels, too.

If you're an athlete, *should* you diversify your circle of friends and make sure you have non-athletes in your social circle -- is it Not Nice not to do so? What about Steve Pavlina's advocacy to dump Negative People -- isn't that Not Nice, too? Negative People are human beings, too, after all. Seems like not befriending them, hiring them, and having sex with them is only making their negativity worse.

[Lucidism]

Originally Posted by Angela

So, the "not nice" thing. Is a person being Not Nice if one of his/her factors in choosing an employee, a date, a lover, or a friend is their physical condition?

The answer for this, and the rest of your examples, is up to personal choice, yes?

But as for me and what I consider "not nice" - being obese is not a "good enough" reason to reject someone's friendship or employment (assuming their obesity doesn't prevent them from doing the work).

For me, I do have certain physical minimal requirements for a date or a lover, consciously as well as unconsciously I imagine. And these are more strict than the physical requirements I have for an employee or friend. For example, I won't date a smoker.

I think we all set these boundaries to some degree, and as a society we have agreed upon understandings. When someone goes against this understanding, we (the general "we") call them rude or inconsiderate.

Do you want fat people to be a protected group under the Civil Rights Act?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

The answer for this, and the rest of your examples, is up to personal choice, yes?

But as for me and what I consider "not nice" - being obese is not a "good enough" reason to reject someone's friendship or employment (assuming their obesity doesn't prevent them from doing the work).

That's the thing, though -- are you "rejecting" obese people because you focus on slender people? Are you rejecting negative people because you focus on positive ones? Are you discriminating against some people by choosing to spend your time, money, love, friendship, and sexual attention on others?

For me, I do have certain physical minimal requirements for a date or a lover, consciously as well as unconsciously I imagine. And these are more strict than the physical requirements I have for an employee or friend. For example, I won't date a smoker.

If you have two candidates applying for work for you, all else being equal, is smoking a good enough reason to hire one person and not the other?

I think we all set these boundaries to some degree, and as a society we have agreed upon understandings. When someone goes against this understanding, we (the general "we") call them rude or inconsiderate.

We do? What are those understandings about obese people, exactly?

Do you want fat people to be a protected group under the Civil Rights Act?

No. I would strongly prefer for people to not determine their level of courtesy on the other person's weight, though.

[Lucidism]

Originally Posted by Angela

Are you discriminating against some people by choosing to spend your time, money, love, friendship, and sexual attention on others?

Nope. This is what we call "freedom of choice", in my opinion.

If you have two candidates applying for work for you, all else being equal, is smoking a good enough reason to hire one person and not the other?

All else being exactly equal, I'd pick the non-smoker in this situation too. In real life, though, things aren't usually so equal and black/white.

We do? What are those understandings about obese people, exactly?

Sure! Society has tons of rules like this. We call them manners, yes? If a child calls another child fat, the teacher says, "No no, Jimmy. That's very mean. Apologize to Susie."

No. I would strongly prefer for people to not determine their level of courtesy on the other person's weight, though.

*high five*

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

Sure! Society has tons of rules like this. We call them manners, yes? If a child calls another child fat, the teacher says, "No no, Jimmy. That's very mean. Apologize to Susie."

What are the grown-up versions of this, in regards to obese people? I mean, there are two sides to some questions that people feel quite strongly about. What's the rule? Who's the teacher?

*high five*

I'm happy that you agree.

[Lucidism]

Originally Posted by Angela

What are the grown-up versions of this, in regards to obese people?

In America, based on my observations, I think it's considered rude to call someone fat to their face, but many feel free to snicker about it secretly. The teacher is society in general - our parents, our teachers, our television, our media.

[Double]

It can never be anybody elses buisness who i decide to hire, and who i dont?