How do you feel about the BP oil spill?

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Egregious Citations Issued to BP

"BP processes about 1.5 million barrels of crude oil per day, across six refineries in the United States. In total, 150 refineries in the United States process just under 18 million barrels per day, so BP processes about 8.5 percent of it. However, as reported by the Center for Public Integrity, 97 percent of the most dangerous violations found by OSHA were on BP properties."

Interesting.

The source article is even better:

Renegade Refiner: OSHA Says BP Has “Systemic Safety Problem” - The Center for Public Integrity

"Top OSHA officials told the Center in an interview that BP was cited for more egregious willful violations than other refiners because it failed to correct the types of problems that led to the 2005 Texas City accident even after OSHA pointed them out."

“The only thing you can conclude is that BP has a serious, systemic safety problem in their company”

[Double]

One could argue that the government is actually to blame. Why the heck are BP even drilling so far out, in such hazardous places?


I bet you its illegal to drill in safer places with oil, ie closer to the shore.

[Brutha]

One could argue that the government is actually to blame.

Yes are in the extent that Bush staffed the department that approved the drilling with people from the oil industry and Obama didn't kick them out.

[ShinyGlass]

Originally Posted by givejonadollar

The market has not found anything better than natural oil at this point.

How can anyone say this after Stan Meyer invented a car that ran on water?

Guess what? The Department of Defense took an interest in his work, and hired him. The next day, he died of food poisoning.

Big oil (who largely controls the government) will KILL the competition, literally.

It's not that no one has come up with anything better than oil, it's just that it's been ruthlessly suppressed.

Consider who has something to lose from green energy.

[ar81]

Russia: Our Mini Submarines Could Stop Your Leak, But They're Busy In Irkutsk

[Lucidism]

Originally Posted by Double

One could argue that the government is actually to blame.

Probably. "Blame the government" is the default answer for anything that goes wrong, isn't it?

[Brutha]

How can anyone say this after Stan Meyer invented a car that ran on water?

Because there's no good reason to belief the claim of Stan Meyer. People claim all sorts of stuff.

[ShinyGlass]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Because there's no good reason to belief the claim of Stan Meyer. People claim all sorts of stuff.

Stan Meyer was impressive enough to be hired by the Department of Defense. Do they offer huge contracts to just anyone who makes a claim?

I saw a film called The Freedom Movie on YouTube a few days ago, and in Part 8 it showed footage of an interview with Stan Meyer, with him demonstrating how his engine worked and with footage of him driving down the street in the car (that it worked was fact, not theory). The engine was able to run on any kind of water, even saltwater or snow, and would have required no maintainance, according to Stan Meyer. (hmm, doesn't sound like much of a moneymaker for BP)

Funny, I just tried to find the YouTube video again but it had been removed due to "term of use violation" or something. lol, yeah, I'll bet

Even if you aren't familiar with Stan Meyer, the mainstream documentary 'Who Killed the Electric Car' shows real electric cars that people were buying and driving in the 90s, mainly celebrities like Tom Hanks and Alexandra Paul. Their cars were forcibly but legally seized from them and destroyed. Sounds far out there but I saw it myself, there's footage of all of it. Everyone should see this movie before they form an opinion on the oil spill, imo. Here's a promotional trailer for the movie from YouTube, better watch it fast before it goes missing too, ha ha.

YouTube - Who Killed The Electric Car?

You can get 'Who Killed the Electric Car' at netflix.

It seems to me like a lot of caring, thoughtful, forward-thinking people don't fully realize that not everyone shares their values, and that big business can and will respond to any threat to their income stream. To me, it's not about believing every claim that has been made, but to simply be *aware* that not everyone shares my desire for green energy, and that those people will act in their own interests. I'm not sure we can afford all the naïveté anymore, you know?

To solve the mystery, all you usually have to do is follow the money.

[ShinyGlass]

oops, Zach beat me to it, lol.

That's what I get for not reading the whole thread first

[Brutha]

Stan Meyer was impressive enough to be hired by the Department of Defense.

Could you provide an independent source for that claim?

Do they offer huge contracts to just anyone who makes a claim?

Darpa did a lot of paranormal research because they want to investigate everything even if there is only a slim chance that it will work out.

I spent enough time at the CCC to know people who would simply build the stuff themselves if there would be publically available documentation that makes sense to engineers.The last CCC had their own cell phone network because they cracked the protocol and build their own open source IMSI-Catcher.

The GSM association certainly doesn't like the idea of the an open source IMSI-Catcher but you can't surpress that kind of work.

Serious hackers don't let themselves get censored.

it showed footage of an interview with Stan Meyer, with him demonstrating how his engine worked and with footage of him driving down the street in the car (that it worked was fact, not theory).

It's very easier to use another engine to drive the car on the video.

To solve the mystery, all you usually have to do is follow the money.

Selling documentaries is a good business for those who don't have productive products but claim miracle technologies.

[ShinyGlass]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Darpa did a lot of paranormal research because they want to investigate everything even if there is only a slim chance that it will work out.

Paranormal? When I hear the word "paranormal" I think of telepathy or something, not water fuel cell technology. If the two are in the same category for you, then I can see why you're not buying it, and that's okay.

There's nothing wrong with placing primary importance on substantiated facts. It's just that you have to remember who controls access to information.

Originally Posted by Brutha

The GSM association certainly doesn't like the idea of the an open source IMSI-Catcher but you can't surpress that kind of work.

Does GSM have an enormous lobby in Washington, the way that big oil does?

If they don't own and control the government then no, *they* can't suppress anything, but that doesn't mean that big oil can't. It takes a lot of power and influence to be able to suppress innovation.

Chiropractic care was initially attacked and suppressed by the medical establishment before they finally won the right to practice freely. Daniel David Palmer founded a chiropractic school in 1897 and his first adjustment was on a partially deaf man named Harvey Lillard. The adjustment improved the patient's hearing, but Palmer was thrown in jail for practicing healing without the "acceptable" credentials (and who controlled the licensing?)

For big business to shut down their competition, they need the law (government) behind them. Big Pharma and Big Oil control the government which is why they can suppress the competition, whereas cell phone companies and stuff really can't. The clout is not there.

Originally Posted by Brutha

It's very easier to use another engine to drive the car on the video.

That's probably something the news crew would have noticed, though. I think they would have caught on if Stan Meyer had demonstrated an engine in one car and then gotten in another to drive down the street.

Originally Posted by Brutha

Selling documentaries is a good business for those who don't have productive products but claim miracle technologies.

Miracle, paranormal. lol.

Okee

[ar81]

Raymond J. Learsy: Gulf Oil Disaster: And the Winner Is?...the Oil Companies!

Laurie David: What I Don't Understand

Why are we giving oil companies a free pass to drill a mile below the ocean's surface, where the pressure is so intense it causes oil to shoot out like a rocket, when we don't know how to fix major leaks?

[Brutha]

Paranormal? When I hear the word "paranormal" I think of telepathy or something, not water fuel cell technology. If the two are in the same category for you, then I can see why you're not buying it, and that's okay.

Could you explain a plausible physical process that produces extra energy out of water?
Even in laboratory conditions I don't see a process that can create the kind of energy that would be required to power a car.

Laboratory experiments in back-rooms are nothing that you can suppress through patents and the internet makes information practically uncensorable. Of course you can withdraw the information from Google but it's still in the darknets.

Chiropractic care was initially attacked and suppressed by the medical establishment before they finally won the right to practice freely.

And that still doesn't prove that it works.

That's probably something the news crew would have noticed, though. I think they would have caught on if Stan Meyer had demonstrated an engine in one car and then gotten in another to drive down the street.

You can have on engine under the backseat or do similar stuff to hide what's happening.

[AtomicAnt]

My father used to import seafood. For much of America, the oil spill could be the end of life as they've known it or generations. It's one of the worst events in world history, potentially.

[ShinyGlass]

Originally Posted by ShinyGlass

Chiropractic care was initially attacked and suppressed by the medical establishment before they finally won the right to practice freely.

Originally Posted by Brutha

And that still doesn't prove that it works.

True, we do need to keep an eye out on all the paranormal chiropractors out there. What a bunch of miracle quacks

[vp2oh9]

the bp oil spill plain pisses me off

science already invented an oil eating microbe back in 1989
An Oil-Eating Microbe That's Been Around Since 1989 Could Single-Handedly Clean Up BP's Entire Oil Spill

its almost as if BP WANTS to mess up the world....

[Plays With Life]

This is apparently a live underwater video of the oil gushing out.

Watch Live Event - ABC News

[ar81]

Originally Posted by vp2oh9

the bp oil spill plain pisses me off

science already invented an oil eating microbe back in 1989
An Oil-Eating Microbe That's Been Around Since 1989 Could Single-Handedly Clean Up BP's Entire Oil Spill

its almost as if BP WANTS to mess up the world....

They do not want microbes to eat the oil under the sea. They still want to extract as much oil as they can.

[Hern]

Originally Posted by ShinyGlass

True, we do need to keep an eye out on all the paranormal chiropractors out there. What a bunch of miracle quacks

There we go! A new market! 1-900-psychic-chiropractor No appointment needed!

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by veranadine

How about you? What are your thoughts?

I am particularly concerned about this year's hurricane season. Hurricane season started June 1 in Louisiana. Louisiana traditionally does not get much damage from hurricanes or flooding (2005 was an exception because the levees broke after Hurricane Katrina passed), but the state usually does get a lot of rain from the Gulf. I remember one year as a child I asked why did the air smell like fish after a tropical storm passed my house. It's not going to smell like fish this year, that's for sure.

This year's season looks to be especially busy. If I were in the area affected by the Gulf I'd leave ASAP, but not everyone shares my hunches. It's free will, oh well.

[Jaiysun4]

I find it slightly annoying how people are calling BP "British Petroleum," as if to try and pass the blame somehow onto the UK. That is NOT THEIR NAME!

The rig was run by Americans and American companies, and the equipment that broke was American under very lax regulations. And I dont see Halliburton or Transocean or anyone else who is culpable doing anything about it. It's just I think BP in general are the face of the disaster, but blame is a much harder thing to place.

Perhaps driving down the share prices for a takeover is one strategy.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by Double

One could argue that the government is actually to blame. Why the heck are BP even drilling so far out, in such hazardous places?

I bet you its illegal to drill in safer places with oil, ie closer to the shore.

Originally Posted by Brutha

Yes are in the extent that Bush staffed the department that approved the drilling with people from the oil industry and Obama didn't kick them out.

Originally Posted by Lucidism

Probably. "Blame the government" is the default answer for anything that goes wrong, isn't it?

So is "Blame the industry." It's both and so much more. Offshore drilling in Louisiana has been employing people in Louisiana, including people in my family, for decades. Louisiana is a resource-rich and economically-poor state. No one gave a damn before the oil spill, and no one is talking about it now. That's why people leave Louisiana when they have the opportunity -- the corruption and apathy is so pervasive that there is nothing the "little guys" can do while they're there. That's why my father took my family to Texas. Although I love my state and my Cajun culture, I'm still glad.

Originally Posted by ar81

Why are we giving oil companies a free pass to drill a mile below the ocean's surface, where the pressure is so intense it causes oil to shoot out like a rocket, when we don't know how to fix major leaks?

There has been no contingency plan developed by industry or government regulators for a long, long time now. It's a bit late to be complaining about the inevitable when we had so much time to prepare, isn't it? You ask why didn't anyone care before. People were too busy enjoying their cheap oil and gasoline, that's why. I personallly blame O.I.L. for this problem:

Overlooked
Ignorance and
Lies

In other words, people willingly overlooked the immorality and ignored the obvious hazards ill-repaired levees and unsafe oil drilling posed and chose to believe the lies put out by government and industry because everyone personally profited from doing nothing about it. It's not like government/industry corruption and horrible education and apathy in Louisiana is some sort of conspiracy. It doesn't meet the definition of conspiracy because conspiracies are secret and unlawful by definition. This was all out in the open for anyone willing to look, and even though some laws/regulations were broken -- or rewritten for personal gain, I'm sure -- no one cared enough to enforce them. I imagine there was a lot of bribes involved as well -- that's common in Louisiana. Pay the right person, and all your legal problems magically go away.

Originally Posted by AtomicAnt

My father used to import seafood. For much of America, the oil spill could be the end of life as they've known it or generations. It's one of the worst events in world history, potentially.

Yep. And then I receive comments in Twitter from vegans like "Are Gulf fishermen entitled to $ compensation for the animals they can't slaughter and the ocean they can't rape?" I wish I was making that up -- I used to be vegan and I was embarrassed about [sic] "vegan compassion" when I read that. The fishermen are the least to blame right now, if they could be blamed at all.

Originally Posted by Jaiysun4

I find it slightly annoying how people are calling BP "British Petroleum," as if to try and pass the blame somehow onto the UK. That is NOT THEIR NAME!

The rig was run by Americans and American companies, and the equipment that broke was American under very lax regulations. And I dont see Halliburton or Transocean or anyone else who is culpable doing anything about it. It's just I think BP in general are the face of the disaster, but blame is a much harder thing to place.

Perhaps driving down the share prices for a takeover is one strategy.

I wouldn't be surprised about that, sadly. I'm rather jaded now. Although realistically, I don't know how possible that is since, unlike American-based companies like GM, BP is an international corporation that is headquartered in the UK. I don't think the US government could take it over in the form of a bailout.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by veranadine

Wow! I am having a really hard time wrapping my brain around this global ecological disaster.

The Gulf is essentially a big oil holding tank at this point and ancient sea turtles, highly intelligent dolphins and peaceful sea birds are all dying en masse. The plants and plankton will be next, not to mention the human suffering and loss of livelihood along the coastline.

Usually I can hide behind my cynicism or my self-righteous belief that I am an aware, vegetarian, organic-gardening eco-hippie, but the reality is that we all have to witness this tragedy and try to make peace with whatever role we may have indirectly played in its manifestation.

I am having a hard time grasping its scale and how I feel about it.

How about you? What are your thoughts?

I am the Earth, she is my reflection.
I have made it very, very obvious that what lies underneath,
what is not seen,
hidden from my awareness,
layer under layer,
highly pressurized...
"that old old-gunk I'd rather not deal with"...
needs to be seen for the conscious-self to work on it.

There is no getting away from it now.
I must deal with my buried gunk (denial).
Or Die
and my Earth will be the reflection of that death.
Do I have the courage to change?

[Elrond]

Parody

[WanderingOak]

I just came across an interesting article with a few unnerving statistics. One million barrels of oil has leaked into the gulf so-far. In 2007, America was using 20 million barrels of oil per day, which means that as far as our oil usage goes, we have only spilled about 1.2 hours worth of oil. The problem is that according to BP's estimates, the wellhead only holds between 50 and 100 Million barrels of recoverable oil. If those estimates are correct, it means that we destroyed the ecology of the Gulf of Mexico and threatened the Atlantic Seaboard for a paltry THREE TO FIVE DAYS WORTH OF OIL. In other words, this wasn't even a very large deposit of oil, even though it was pretty hard to get at (they had to try twice to drill the well), and very risky to tap. We blew it for a proverbial drop in a bucket. I can't think of any sane person who would say that the price was worth it.

Of course, these statistics aren't being talked about that much. People don't want to hear it, and it would probably cause Wall Street to go into another tizzy. We can't go on like this. Then again, we can't just throw on the brakes and scream 'stop the world, I wanna get off!!!!'. In order for that to happen, everybody's standard of living would have to go down. We'd all have to walk / ride bikes / take the train rather than drive, buy all of our food locally and eat only what's in season, etc. Some people would be willing to do it, but a majority won't change voluntarily. The price of fuel has to remain unnaturally low, so I doubt if the market will ever truly be able to reflect the real cost of a gallon of gas. Until then, most people will not be willing to reduce consumption, so risky oil exploration will probably continue indefinitely.

[Peterw]

Anadarko to Pay BP $4 Billion for Deepwater .

I see Haliburton are out of the frame still