How do you feel about the BP oil spill?

[Zach M]

Why is it so hard to imagine a life beyond oil? We used to have electric cars that put the Prius to shame.

Danny DeVito had one:
YouTube - Danny DeVito, Who Killed My Car?

Tom Hanks too:
YouTube - Hanks GM EV1, saving the world Dave

[ar81]

Originally Posted by Zach Matley

Why is it so hard to imagine a life beyond oil?

Americans do not like change. Health reform needed to be done in 1912 when the first attempt took place. It took 98 years to implement a very small patch that they call "reform".

BP is not the only one moving at glacial pace. US does too.

If there is no need of oil, accidents involving oil should not happen. Oil was produced by transforming dead creatures. Extracting oil is to bring up death again.

[mityno]

Originally Posted by Zach Matley

Why is it so hard to imagine a life beyond oil? We used to have electric cars that put the Prius to shame.

Danny DeVito had one:
YouTube - Danny DeVito, Who Killed My Car?

Tom Hanks too:
YouTube - Hanks GM EV1, saving the world Dave

And what kind of car do you think Henry Ford gave his wife to drive in 1914? (Yes 1914, the year WWI started):

Henry Ford with Clara Ford's 1914 Detroit Electric Model 47 Brougham

The Kutztown Folk Festival -- Electric Cars – Here to Stay or Just a Temporary Alternative?

Detroit Electric dedicated to the early electric car and my 1914 model 43 SEMA pictures

Ford’s Detroit Electric and the Henry Ford Museum

Big Oil has been squashing electrics for around a century now.

.

[SheldonCooper]

Originally Posted by ar81

Americans do not like change. Health reform needed to be done in 1912 when the first attempt took place. It took 98 years to implement a very small patch that they call "reform".

BP is not the only one moving at glacial pace. US does too.

If there is no need of oil, accidents involving oil should not happen. Oil was produced by transforming dead creatures. Extracting oil is to bring up death again.

There would be accidents involving the other kind of energy instead.

[Zach M]

Originally Posted by ar81

Americans do not like change.

I see what you're saying. On the other hand, innovation is a strong component of American culture. Electric light bulbs, airplanes, skyscrapers, the internet, and online social networking are but a few our our accomplishments.

By the way getting serious about new technologies, beyond "green jobs" lip service, is what could finally start creating jobs again.

[mityno]

I think we could eliminate coal, nuclear and natural gas power plants if we just went back to lighting our homes with lamps that burn Sperm Whale Oil! Unlike candles kerosene lamps, whale oil burns clean and smokeless. The Japanese still have a whaling fleet so we could just have them supply us.

Ok, I'm being very sarcastic, I would much rather burn dead dinosaurs than kill whales to light my home. (Even if I believe in abiotic oil: The 'Abiotic Oil' Controversy).

[funchy]

I am OUTRAGED not that an accident happened but that taxpayers, not BP, will be paying for almost all of it. A federal law was quietly passed years ago, limiting oil spill damages to $75 million. Big oil controls our government a little too much.

I'm also OUTRAGED that there are still people out there eager to drill without hesitation. They all want cheap gas for their SUVs. Nobody wants to think about the real price of oil: the price we pay in pollution, loss of natural resources, loss of food (in this case seafood), health damage, and loss of tourism. When will our national energy policy change? Will we remain addicted to oil and coal until the end of time?

[Jaiysun4]

It's an absolute disaster for everone. The wildlife and environment, Americans and the UK, BP, Obama and the Democrats.

I'm not really interested in the blame game because it's too early to come to firm conclusions. I just hate the feeling of complete ineptitude in dealing with the problem. I'm not from the US but i find it shocking how its up to BP to stop the leak or seems that way. I imagined the superpower US government might have a bit more up its sleeve, at least in containing the oil from beaches and so on.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by Zach Matley

I see what you're saying. On the other hand, innovation is a strong component of American culture. Electric light bulbs, airplanes, skyscrapers, the internet, and online social networking are but a few our our accomplishments.

By the way getting serious about new technologies, beyond "green jobs" lip service, is what could finally start creating jobs again.

This is not change. A few new gadgets are not real change.
Cars keep using hydrocarbon and US cities are designed for cars, not people. US is feeding cars, not people.

World hunger 'hits one billion'
BBC NEWS | Europe | World hunger 'hits one billion'

U.S. Feeds One Quarter of its Grain to Cars While Hunger is on the Rise
EPI Releases - Data Highlights: U.S. Feeds One Quarter of its Grain to Cars While Hunger is on the Rise | EPI

Parking Lots to Parks: Designing Livable Cities
Book Bytes - 81: Parking Lots to Parks: Designing Livable Cities | EPI

Amazingly change does not seem to come form US.

US has been reluctant to:
-Improve health system (Sweden, Canada outrank U.S. on healthcare | Reuters)
-Reform financial system (it did not even restore Glass-Steagall law)
-Move away from oil
-Stop consumerist borrower deficitary behavior that fuels crisis
-Nationalize banks to regain control on monetary policy
-Audit the FED to guarantee transparency

Unfortunately, the current crisis can't be solved unless americans go against their own beliefs. Not doing that means that Americans would be Latinamericanized by banks, just like they did in the "lost decade" with Latin America (see Anatomy of a Crisis | George Soros )

[Jaiysun4]

@ar81. I see what you are saying. But the problem is that the US is a country that loves Oil, that loves owning your own vehicles and having big ones! This is a crude stereotype granted.

Regards the US being resistant to change, here's another crude stereotype!

The US is a lover of free-markets, of de-regulation. This is the opposite of government-instigated change. With this policy the government is reactive to disasters as they occur rather than proactive in shaping the country as a whole. The whole idea of government-led change seems to be something people are deeply suspicious of. It seems people would prefer more of the same, but less of it, than any grand ideas from governent to change anything. Also, it seems the US public hates being lectured to about lifestyles. Its a personal thing - "i should be able to do whatever i want" and it results in shutting yourself off to good ideas.

p.s. Get it... CRUDE HAHAHA

[Brutha]

U.S. Feeds One Quarter of its Grain to Cars While Hunger is on the Rise

Hunger is on the rise when you count the raw amount of people it isn't when you look at the percentage of people who hunger.
We raise the amount of people that are feed but population rises.

[Zach M]

I wasn't talking about government-led change.

[Zach M]

Originally Posted by ar81

This is not change. A few new gadgets are not real change.
Cars keep using hydrocarbon and US cities are designed for cars, not people. US is feeding cars, not people.

I guess you missed my post on electric cars. That's OK, please take a look again. I guess I overestimate how many people have taken the time to learn about about real electric cars such as the GM EV1. The story in brief is that GM made electric cars, leased them to the public and then took them all back when the leases expired, with no explanation. The link I gave explains in more detail, or you can watch Who Killed the Electric Car?

Today Tesla Motors is leading the way. There's also Aptera motors.

[Brutha]

Today Tesla Motors is leading the way.

No, a $57,400 car will need a lot of energy to be assembled and a lot of people can't afford it.

The real change in cars won't be:
Burn Coal -> Power a lithium battery -> Drive the car that you own
That model doesn't work. There is not enough lithium on this planet and we don't have the tech to mine asteroids in a cost effective way.
It's quite ironic that those who worry about peak oil don't worry about peak lithium.

It's autonomous vehicles.
Autonomous vehicles will make driving with taxis cheaper than driving with a car that you own. It's the game changer.

It will alter the economics of car travel and the taxi companies will have an incentive to make the energy costs per mile as low as possible.

If you pay per drive and you want to drive alone you can drive with a one person taxi that's smaller than your 5-person car that you use at the moment to drive to work. That saves energy.

For car companies it's not really that much different for their business models whether they produce electric cars or whether they produce oil driven cars.

If we however only need a fifth of the amount of cars that we produce at the moment because nobody owns their own car anymore the car industry has a problem.

Today the people working in the research say that we could have autonomous cars in 10 years.

Guess what the car industry isn't really interested in putting serious money into developing self autonomous cars (they invest a bit but not much).
If you ask them they tell you it's because customers don't want autonomous cars.

You have more lobbying for lithium battery research then you have lobbying for autonomous car research.

[Zach M]

Telsa Motors' plan is to start with luxury items for those who can afford it and bring down the price and they hone their craft. A lot of new technology is introduced this way.

As for lithium batteries, yeah they are problematic. From what I've read nickel-metal hydride (NIMH) batteries appear better. Implementing them here is a problem though here in the U.S. because an oil company owns the patent to NIMH batteries in cars. Personally I'd advocate revamping patent laws to advance technology rather than stifle it. (Maybe some kind of use it or lose it policy) I'm not sure if the patent issues are similar in your country.

Autonomous vehicles sound interesting. I'll look into them at some point.

[Brutha]

As for lithium batteries, yeah they are problematic. From what I've read nickel-metal hydride (NIMH) batteries appear better. Implementing them here is a problem though here in the U.S. because an oil company owns the patent to NIMH batteries in cars. Personally I'd advocate revamping patent laws to advance technology rather than stifle it. (Maybe some kind of use it or lose it policy) I'm not sure if the patent issues are similar in your country.

NIMH batteries sound great, there seem to be enough nickel.
Which patents are we talking about in particular and when will they run out?

Personally I'd advocate revamping patent laws to advance technology rather than stifle it. (Maybe some kind of use it or lose it policy) I'm not sure if the patent issues are similar in your country.

The only main difference in patents is that we don't have software patents in Europe.

The Chinese however probably won't care much about the patents and they want to get their car industry running. When the patent runs out in 2014 they can sell to the world.

[tru]

As long as we keep using oil, nuclear etc.

there will always be disasters of this type.
alternative sources are available, the technology is available and has been for decades but no real effort has been put into changing the money making machine,

either by the companies which make profits from these industries or and especially governments, none of the present or past global administration's are blameless, regardless of their political views. its simply political suicide to tackle these huge global industries and all governments know this.

This is the sad part in all disasters of this kind, the political wil to change things is just not their. How many more preventable disasters have to take place before we all get to saturation point, or the planet dies, well actually the planet wont die it will eventually repair itself but we certainly will.

[tru]

One more thing: to all you vegies out there, why do you always have to let us know... ok your are vegetarins cant you just be a vegetarian without broadcasting it to the world, are vegetarians somehow better than the rest of us?

I dont think so, in my opinion most vegies dont really like animals anyway, if they did, they wouldnt steel all their food.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by veranadine

I am having a hard time grasping its scale and how I feel about it.

How about you? What are your thoughts?

Humans seem like bizarre and dishonest creatures to me.

Whenever anything happens , we run around pointing fingers and crying bloody blue murder. And everyone is a genius after the fact about all the failsafes that should have been in place. Complete and total rubbish.

We thoughtlessly and blindly consume oil and gas like destructive villains AND THEN act innocent and shocked when the people WE granted the right to dig it up for us have an accident. CNN's coverage has been dishonest, disgusting and inflammatory IMO.


We allow an abhorrent multi-billion dollar porn industry to exist and flourish as well as all kinds of sexual exploitation in main steam advertising AND THEN act shocked and offended when a neighbor or an uncle or a friend acts out some unspeakable act against a child or a woman or whoever.

We worship and promote a society where $ and getting ahead is the only thing that matters AND THEN act shocked when a banker gets caught perpetrating a "ponzy" scheme.

Or we have a gun bearing culture in the US and a culture of violent films and violent murderous video games and violent role models who are rewarded or our obscene military and history of promoting unconscionable wars AND THEN act appalled when a number of black kids choose to arm themselves and shoot each other in Chicago.

We design and promote cars to go 120 miles an hour and also have bars where we encourage each other to drink like fish AND THEN we get uppity when a drunk person plows down 5 people at a bus stop, as if we are better then that person.

The peanut gallery BS list is long.

To me it has 100% nothing to do with BP but rather 100% everything to do with all of us. The finger pointing thing is nauseating and sheer stupidity.

[Lucidism]

I feel surprised.

Surprised that BP didn't have some kind of official procedure in place for this kind of thing. Surprised they didn't expect it would happen one day.

[mityno]

Originally Posted by tru

One more thing: to all you vegies out there, why do you always have to let us know... ok your are vegetarins cant you just be a vegetarian without broadcasting it to the world, are vegetarians somehow better than the rest of us?

I dont think so, in my opinion most vegies dont really like animals anyway, if they did, they wouldnt steel all their food.

Actually, far more crop tonnage is needed to grow animals for meat than to grow vegetables for human food. So vegetarianism could support far more people than carnivorism because it is simply many times more efficient and less of a load on the planet's resources.

Seafood is different in that it is based on plankton and humans can't directly eat plankton, at least not without some type of significant processing.

I don't know what the word is for what I am, but I don't eat mammals. I eat fish and fowl for meat, but not mammals.

[Zach M]

Originally Posted by Brutha

NIMH batteries sound great, there seem to be enough nickel.
Which patents are we talking about in particular and when will they run out?

Everything I know so far about the patents comes from ev1. org

Here's a sample:

GM announced on Oct. 10, 2000 the sale of the worldwide patent rights for the NiMH batteries to Texaco. Six days later, on Oct. 16, 2000, even before the sale was consumated, Texaco announced its merger into Chevron, the successor to Standard Oil of California. The sale of the batteries was finally concluded on July 17, 2001, long after Texaco had become one with Chevron.

Chevron/Texaco received "...GM's 60 percent stake in [NiMH] batteries, and a 20 percent stake in ECD itself...", giving Chevron effective control of NiMH.

[secrets0stolen]

A little prophetic classic rock:

Every day she gets a little weaker;
The beauty she once knew has come and gone;
We've murdered all her sons and all her daughters;
The blood is on your hands, the time has come . . .
And now she's gonna die!

We've strangled all her trees and starved her creatures;
There's poison in the sea and in the air;
But worst of all, we've learned to live without her;
We've lost the very meaning of our lives . . .
And now she's gonna die!

Once she ruled the earth with love and wisdom;
But we were much too smart to live her way;
With greed and lust we tried to rise above her;
The ignorance of man will reach an end . . .
'Cause now we're gonna die!

[tru]

[QUOTE=secrets0stolen;599831]A little prophetic classic rock
just thought you may be interested!
A fascinating documentary was made about twenty odd years ago called top of the world. It was released a a book of the same name. it was made on the request of an ancient society and ancestors of the Incas i believe, they had invited a film crew from the BBC to come to their country which they said was dying due to our exploits. Little brother I think they called us. meaning all of the worlds nations. basically they wanted to ask us to stop killing the earth and to change our ways.

The most heart breaking part of this documentary for me, was at the end when as they put it. Now that we have told you that you are killing the earth it is up to you now, you must stop, the closing scene was of one of the elders closing a small wooden gate and saying {through a translator} that we where not to come back as they wanted no more to do with us.

really sad but should be seen, absolutely fascinating

[tru]

Originally Posted by mityno

Actually, far more crop tonnage is needed to grow animals for meat than to grow vegetables for human food. So vegetarianism could support far more people than carnivorism because it is simply many times more efficient and less of a load on the planet's resources.

Seafood is different in that it is based on plankton and humans can't directly eat plankton, at least not without some type of significant processing.

I don't know what the word is for what I am, but I don't eat mammals. I eat fish and fowl for meat, but not mammals.

Don't actually know the statistic's to agree or disagree with your post but I'm fairly sure that neither could exist without the other. as for plankton how do they extract nourishment from the sea?

didn't mean to offend, totally understand your not wanting to eat meat, just a bit fed up with vegetarians viewing themselves as special or some form of higher beings.

[mityno]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

A little prophetic classic rock:

All we are is dust in the wind.

.

[Hern]

We should stop bashing governments about this. Let’s face it, all things break given enough time. However, BP has a long track record with OSHA and other government orgs of poor maintenance, safety and training of their facilities and people. Things break + Poor planning + Unprepared personnel = Disaster. If anyone wants to lay blame; please place it where it really belongs.

[mityno]

Here is a video showing the conclusion of all computer models showing the likley path of the spread of the oil. Warning, it is NOT pretty!

Atlanta News, Sports, Atlanta Weather, Business News | ajc.com

[metamorph]

My thoughts: everone hopes the leak will soon be fixed, and we can then all continue doing what we have been doing and living the life we have been living. And nothing will change.

[Brutha]

For the discussion of whether BP is generally to blame: Egregious Citations Issued to BP