How do you feel about the BP oil spill?

[Double]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Under the Bush administration they did a lot to deregulate.
If you want a government to be able to respond in such situations than you have to think differently about funding certain government agencies.

Deregulate what?

Oh I dont want the government to take care of the environment, i think its unable to

[mityno]

Originally Posted by Double

Deregulate what?

Oh I dont want the government to take care of the environment, i think its unable to

But we trust government to oversee the economy, disaster relief efforts and health care?

[Double]

Yes, i know, but I for one dont

I just read an interesting piece on a possible solution to stop the spill. Put simply the suggestion is to nuke it. The solution would work best if the surface is rocky, as it will shift easier and block the leakage. Apparently its been done before, primarily by russians in the old days, with great success. I just find it to be a simple solution, and should definately be looked into

[SomeRandomGuy]

I think this spill shows us how unprepared the companies are to deal with such accidents. Sure, they have the blow out preventer as a fail-safe, but where was their plan for a failure of the BOP? They keep coming up with new plans to contain the oil, all of which I hear have never been tested as such depths. Why do we allow companies to install a drilling rig in such an environment without having several fully tested plans in place to deal with various accidents? I consider this accident both a failure of the companies involved as well as a failure of the federal government. The spill comes at an interesting time, since Obama has proposed expanded offshore drilling. Perhaps this will cause them to ensure that the companies building and/or operating any new rigs have sufficient plans in place to prevent such accidents, or at least minimize their impacts. I'm not very hopeful however. The fact that some people seem more concerned about the lost oil than the damage to the environment shows up screwed up our priorities are in this country.

[Double]

You could argue that the seeping oil is lost property, and for this i sympasize. But we really dont know anything about the contracts. But one thing is certain, the involved parties has been unprepared. Why this is the case remains a mystery.

Btw. is it the federal government who negotiates the oil driling contracts? Certainly the federal government is less concerned about an oil spill, than any local authority would be. So maybe there is the problem, centralization

[ar81]

See pictures here:

Oh Boy, This Is What The Oil Gushing Out Of The Gulf Of Mexico Looks Like

Amazing Photos Of The Deepwater Oil Explosion

[givejonadollar]

Originally Posted by veranadine

Wow! I am having a really hard time wrapping my brain around this global ecological disaster.

The Gulf is essentially a big oil holding tank at this point and ancient sea turtles, highly intelligent dolphins and peaceful sea birds are all dying en masse. The plants and plankton will be next, not to mention the human suffering and loss of livelihood along the coastline.

Usually I can hide behind my cynicism or my self-righteous belief that I am an aware, vegetarian, organic-gardening eco-hippie, but the reality is that we all have to witness this tragedy and try to make peace with whatever role we may have indirectly played in its manifestation.

I am having a hard time grasping its scale and how I feel about it.

How about you? What are your thoughts?

It's a bit hard to reconcile, and please don't take me as cold.

Humans are always in a battle against nature. If you take environmentalism to it's farthest point.........it equals a world without humans.

Truth be told..........this was an accident. I'm sure BP is doing all they can to make things right. They are going to suffer huge losses because of this. People will probably pay higher at the pump to cover those losses.

Life is full of disasters. I think this is horrible. However, if my choice was between dolphins and fish..........or humans.........I would pick the dolphins and fish as tough as a choice as that is.

And for those of you that hate oil so much...........try living without it for a while.

While you condemn BP you are driving cars, using products, and basing your entire life around things that these people used their brains, resources, and lives to bring to you.

The market has not found anything better than natural oil at this point. If you can do better, please do so.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by givejonadollar

Truth be told..........this was an accident. I'm sure BP is doing all they can to make things right. They are going to suffer huge losses because of this. People will probably pay higher at the pump to cover those losses.

Do you believe they are doing all they can to make things right because they care about doing what is right? Or because they need to the public think they care, to protect their image? What role do you believe that money (greed) played in the accident?

[Double]

I think its a case of growing lazy. Apparently you are not personally responsible for the corporation you are running.

This removes the drive for corporations of doing things "right". And it is coincidentally beneficial for the government because they can always point to the corporations, when they in-turn do bad things, in attempts of giving the government more merit, more money, more power The irony of it all is that government has created these problems, by saying a corporation in it self is a responsible concsious being.

Anyway.. I think BP has grown lazy, which was what causes things to get out of shape and accidents to happen. It will also explain why it is so slow to stop the oil spill, in order to the prevent disaster from growing. Yes BP are doing the "right" thing, but they are lazy and slow because of government regulation that has removed certain fundamental responsibilies from management.

[givejonadollar]

Random Guy - I don't think greed or money played much into the accident at all. It was an accident. Oil men, nor anyone else, throws money away for fun.

Are they doing all they can to make things right? I have no idea, but I would imagine they are. They do have competitors and they do have an image to keep.

Plus, it's a tragedy. There is no benefit for them in this. And even if there was, you would have to imagine it would be secondary.

Double - Oil gets taxed like crazy. Oil is over regulated as you know. They could do a lot more if the government got out of the way. Lazy? Maybe. I feel "hamstringed" is more like it.

I'm not arguing these guys are angels by any means, btw.

[Double]

My poiny is that government regulation has made them lazy, because regulation removes responsiblity

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by givejonadollar

Random Guy - I don't think greed or money played much into the accident at all. It was an accident. Oil men, nor anyone else, throws money away for fun.

Are they doing all they can to make things right? I have no idea, but I would imagine they are. They do have competitors and they do have an image to keep.

Plus, it's a tragedy. There is no benefit for them in this. And even if there was, you would have to imagine it would be secondary.

I don't think that they wanted the accident to happen. I believe it happened partly due to cutting corners to save money. I have heard reports that BP requested Transocean to alter the blow out preventer in a way that would speed up their testing. If this is true, then to me it means that their greed (wanting to save money by spending less time/resources on testing) caused them to have the BOP modified in a way that eventually caused it to fail.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

Nice! LOL. I will refrain from blabbering on about how pointing fingers at individual countries makes sense only to the ignorant. We are a we now. Global where all things are loosely (many times tightly) joined.

Which country mass produced the first motor car - thus enslaving all working people for future generations to the price of petrol?

[mityno]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Which country mass produced the first motor car - thus enslaving all working people for future generations to the price of petrol?

Not exactly my friend... please consider what *really* happened...

Henry Ford's original Model T was made to run on home brew alcohol, just like many early tractors. The reason was that farmers could produce it themselves. It is easier to run gasoline in an engine designed to run on alcohol rather than the other way round so the original Model T's were in actuality "Duel Fuel".

Then John D. Rockefeller of Standard Oil fame started pressuring Ford to move to gasoline only cars and tractors.

Henry Ford resisted but by 1920, John D. Rockefeller had secretly helped finance the Prohibition of alcohol in the United States so there was no more need of an alcohol burning or duel fuel engine since it was against the law to make alcohol.

After WWII, it was General Motors that went around buying up all of the electric trolley lines in the US and closing them down so they could be replaced with diesel busses. President Eisenhower got on board by signing in the United States Autobahn, err I mean United States Interstate Highway System and THAT is how we in the USA got into our dependency of the Rockefeller's gasoline.

[Lioness]

Originally Posted by mityno

...by 1920, John D. Rockefeller had secretly helped finance the Prohibition of alcohol in the United States so there was no more need of an alcohol burning or duel fuel engine since it was against the law to make alcohol.

After WWII, it was General Motors that went around buying up all of the electric trolley lines in the US and closing them down so they could be replaced with diesel busses.

Wow, I had never heard this. In light of this history of it being all about money for oil barons and the car industry, do you forsee some alcohol or electricity barons using this opportunity to get off-shore drilling stopped? I understand the bulk of our oil is imported from Saudi Arabia, but maybe the silver lining of the Gulf accident is that there will be a consumer demand for a different fuel source, and some Rockfeller type will capitalize on it??

[desertrat]

You can make a gas engion run a bunch of fuels with a little modifaction. I have run out of gas , I use propane from a 5 gal. tank to get me to a gas station. On alcohol you need a little more , with a carb. you open the jets a bit , with fuel inj. you do it electronicly. I have heard of cars running or karosine and running on wood smoke . There are people rite now running disel engions on used cooking oil . A quote from a differnt forum says Henry Ford used hemp to make his alcohol . The hemp competed with cotton for rope , the cotton farmers had hemp/weed made ileagle . desert rat

[mityno]

I have been into diesel VW's since 2006. Jetta TDI's with some performance mods like bigger turbos, tuning and such. No matter how fast and stupid I drive, I never get less than 40 mpg. If I set the cruise to 60 mph on the interstate I can get close to 60 mpg... but who can do that? I hope to NEVER buy another gas burner ever again!

I have learned that that alcohol needs around 14:1 compression or more to start burning efficiently. 87 octane gasoline tolerates around 10:1 compression maximum -and that is with aluminum heads.

This is why alcohol is somewhat incompatible with gasoline.

But in a properly modified engine, alcohol is a better fuel substitute for diesels because of their inherently higher compressions from a low of around 16:1 to 22:1 and higher.

And among the best sources for bio-diesel is hemp oil... not marijuana, but the kind of hemp with no THC so it won't make you high if you smoke it. But we know the paper and chemical industry will never let hemp be grown in the USA, for fuel, renewable paper to save out trees or for any other reason.

[Lioness]

Originally Posted by mityno

But we know the paper and chemical industry will never let hemp be grown in the USA, for fuel, renewable paper to save out trees or for any other reason.

But could a new type of Rockefeller emerge to finance the hemp industry, produce environment-friendly fuel and lobby Congress to stop drillling and put strict limits on oil imports? The American people would support this.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by givejonadollar

Random Guy - I don't think greed or money played much into the accident at all. It was an accident. Oil men, nor anyone else, throws money away for fun.

There's no such thing as a *accident*.. this is playing out on the world stage..

So you can have conversations like this one

[givejonadollar]

Originally Posted by Lioness

But could a new type of Rockefeller emerge to finance the hemp industry, produce environment-friendly fuel and lobby Congress to stop drillling and put strict limits on oil imports? The American people would support this.

I've never understood really why it's illegal other than old protectionist laws to protect Dupont and others.

However, you would think if it was really as good as the poster above states, that people would be lining up angel investors like crazy.

"themaster" - you are talking in generalities. I'm talking specifics in this case.
I don't think BP dumped oil on purpose.

[Lioness]

Originally Posted by givejonadollar

However, you would think if it was really as good as the poster above states, that people would be lining up angel investors like crazy.

I hope this is happening behind the scenes. Give it time and maybe we'll see a big push toward hemp fuel, alcohol, cooking oil, whatever!

I don't think BP dumped oil on purpose.

No, but they cut corners, were reportedly in bed with regulators. It's all about greed.

That's why I'm so fascinated about the Rockefeller story because sometimes, greed can be used for good, maybe in this case, it can produce a positive change. Last reports were that the oil is floating toward the Florida Keys. The more beaches/seafood industry and wildlife this spill destroys, the more angry people will get. It's the perfect opportunity for some mogul to get behind a new fuel source and launch a Prohibiltion style war against gasoline!!

[desertrat]

They sell a gas/alcohol mix like 10% . I know propane loves higher compression. If you were going to make a permant switch to alcohol you could mill your heads to get higher compression. I dont know about valve or ing. timeing. Maby some one has a cam for alcohol . I would think eathanol and methonal would burn a bit differnt . desert rat

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Lioness

No, but they cut corners, were reportedly in bed with regulators. It's all about greed.

That's why I'm so fascinated about the Rockefeller story because sometimes, greed can be used for good, maybe in this case, it can produce a positive change.

Exactly, good point.. I heard this today in a channeling..

The channel said.. our corporations won't be allowed to operate with "greed" as a motivation anymore.. if they don't start offering "well-being" to the people they will not be profitable.. they will go under..

So I agree with you.. there is a very good opportunity for BP (the one that had all those Environmental commercials) to really do some good

There name if people don't remember means "Beyond Petroleum"

[Lioness]

Originally Posted by themaster

.. there is a very good opportunity for BP (the one that had all those Environmental commercials) to really do some good

BP will help clean up the spill, but from what I read, the damages so far barely make a dent in their overall profits. I believe they will stay committed to the moneymaker of oil.

What we need is a maverick company to say "Screw the oil barons and their environment-killing drills. Screw the oil sheiks in countries that are hostile to us. Run your cars on our homegrown brew. and it's cheaper too!"

[pjhaggerty]

this must have happened before in the history of the world, there's no way all that oil has always been under the ground, it must've come up at some point. is there ecological damage, yeah. will the ecosystem survive, yeah. life on earth will continue. does this seriously threaten any part of the human race? well a few people in that area might have to change jobs, and some of our food is dead but beyond that, this is survivable. probably won't even effect me. per a previous poster, it doesn't seriously affect we. so overall, it doesn't seem like a big deal. we should try to contain it, and clean it up, and restart the oil rig if we can.

[ar81]

Another oil spill that is not getting attention...
Africa's oil spills are far from U.S. media glare | Reuters

[Lioness]

Why is nothing being done until Wednesday, when they will try to plug the leak with mud and concrete? It seems they are not working around the clock to get this thing stopped.

Government officials keep saying that they are holding BP's feet to the fire. But BP seems to moving at a glacial pace, and by all accounts, doing minimal clean up/protection of wetlands.

My idea would be for Obama to convene a panel of top experts from MIT, NASA, Army Corp of Engineers, Navy, etc. and hammer out the best solutions with the execs and engineers from BP and Haliburton then implement some "Overwhelming Force" to get the job done.

[Mynder]

The planet will survive. Whether we do if we keep doing what we're doing...

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Lioness

My idea would be for Obama to convene a panel of top experts from MIT, NASA, Army Corp of Engineers, Navy, etc. and hammer out the best solutions with the execs and engineers from BP and Haliburton then implement some "Overwhelming Force" to get the job done.

Agreed. I also believe that if only oil companies have the technology to potentially fix the problem, that other oil companies should be involved as well. Also, no drilling should be allowed that is at too great a depth to readily stop if a leak were to occur.

Right now this situation poses more risk to the domestic US than the middle east and should be getting a lot more assistance, with tens of thousands of people doing clean up on land, and as many boats/other vehicles doing whatever necessary to keep the oil from reaching land to begin with, even if that means having the Coast Guard give up the Drug War for a while and much of the military coming back to the US to work in the American Gulf.

With the multiple US wars currently going on being largely tied to oil, in addition to spills like this, I hope there will be a much stronger move to renewable energy. I hardly see how wind/solar and mass public transit via trains could be more costly than this.

[wachusettgirl]

Originally Posted by givejonadollar

It's a bit hard to reconcile, and please don't take me as cold.

Humans are always in a battle against nature. If you take environmentalism to it's farthest point.........it equals a world without humans.

Truth be told..........this was an accident. I'm sure BP is doing all they can to make things right. They are going to suffer huge losses because of this. People will probably pay higher at the pump to cover those losses.

Life is full of disasters. I think this is horrible. However, if my choice was between dolphins and fish..........or humans.........I would pick the dolphins and fish as tough as a choice as that is.

And for those of you that hate oil so much...........try living without it for a while.

While you condemn BP you are driving cars, using products, and basing your entire life around things that these people used their brains, resources, and lives to bring to you.

The market has not found anything better than natural oil at this point. If you can do better, please do so.

Yes, thank you so much for pointing this out, this was an accident, of course caused by human error, but we are all benefiting from the use of oil in some way... Nobody is to blame for this, it is not some sort of conspiracy, it was an accident. It is horrible the way that it is affecting wildlife and costing so much, and causing so much sadness and fear. the best way to help as individuals is to meditate, and/or pray, to place your good intentions on the situation. This is much more productive than placing blame.