9/11 was only the beginning

[royster]

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US says it may kill Americans abroad

US says it may kill Americans abroad | Raw Story

[royster]

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The Defense Industry Is Pleased with Obama

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/noti...ased_with_obama

Laura Flanders on 02/03/2010 @ 07:45am

Who says the president is failing to show leadership? In one area at least, there's no sign of flag or falter. If anything, the administration's only becoming more forthright. Sad to say, that area is military build-up.

Last year, the White House made a big deal of cutting a weapons program -- the F-22 fighter jet -- and the cuts conveniently obscured the growth in spending on unmanned aircraft or drones (the weapons that Pakistanis say killed a record 123 civilians in twelve attacks last month; 41 for every alleged Al Qaeda operative.)

This year, the president dispensed with the window dressing. No big deal about cuts -- except on the domestic side. While the administration's record $3.8 trillion budget cuts or freezes spending on domestic programs, it requests $708.3 billion for war. That's $14.8 billion more than we're spending now.

The total includes $548.9 billion for "regular" war, plus $159.3 billion for special spending on the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Oh yes, the administration's also asking Congress to increase spending on new nuclear weapons by more than $7 billion dollars over the next five years -- despite that peace prize-winning pledge to cut the US arsenal and seek a nuclear weapons-free world.

The quote of the day comes from the CEO of a military contractor-funded policy group called the Lexington Institute. Loren Thompson tells Tuesday's New York Times, "The defense industry is pleased but bemused... It's been telling itself for years that when the Democrats got control it would be bad news for weapons programs. But the spending keeps going on."

Take that you Nobel committee!

And to think some whiners complain about Democrats suffering from a lack of direction.

[Captain Drywall]

If a US citizens are turned, and become terrorists, is this a little like renouncing their citizenship? OK alot like renouncing citizenship. With that in mind i would gladly deliver the bullet you seem to be against. I would do it to save American citizens who have not given up on this great country.

[royster]

Bullets and revolution are not what will "save" America. America was lost when people turned their heads away from the brutal truth, because it threatened their privelaged comfort. The U.S. and the WORLD had the greatest opertunity to hold government accountable, and instead ate the whole cream-filled lie that 19 cave-dwelling hijackers thwarted a 10-trillion dollar defense system...the same defense "industry" enjoying more and more money...supposedly for bullets...to fight the "al kaeda", which the CIA created...and corporations like the brisk business. Europe is more tuned into what really happened on 9/11 than the average American.

Privelaged comfort. As in "Modern Combat II", a video game played by American kids, who can cyber-shoot and kill Arabs, Russians and whatever else the video game gives them, all in the comfort of their bedrooms, while communicating with "comrads" on-line, praising the carnage.

If any group hates America, it is not for our "freedoms", but these "privelaged comforts" at the expense of the rest of the world.

No, you won't "save" America, certainly not by politcal means. At this point, a spiritual solution comes, or America is lost, like many befor Her. When a country puts more and more treasure toward war statues and weaponry, and less and less toward benefiting the citizenty, you have fascism. Pure. And. Simple.

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by Captain Drywall

If a US citizens are turned, and become terrorists, is this a little like renouncing their citizenship? OK alot like renouncing citizenship. With that in mind i would gladly deliver the bullet you seem to be against. I would do it to save American citizens who have not given up on this great country.

Two problems: 1- Who determines if they have "turned"?
2- Do those who are deemed to have "turned" have any right to dispute the claims against them?

[aggie]

the box has already been opened!

can't have your cake and eat it too.

i personally believe 9/11 happened due to carelessness or indifference by the bush administration. then they capitalized on the fear of the threat of attack...we are all so gung ho on how terrorists should be discovered whether it be from merely profiling or not, how they should be treated (ie tortured), we have already been forced into a change in how our society is allowed to travel within the confines of our own borders.

as far as i am concerned, if anyone is deemed to be a terrorist, us citizen or not...action should be taken...we can't have a so called war on terrorism and then wus out because it may be an american citizen....if anyone puts themselves in a situation where their loyalty to this country may allow them compromise or association with threat...we need to deal with it!

[Ilya A K]

Well It was hard to read the first article with all the political talking. Too much rounding corners and such. But from what I understand, the government has the right to kill anyone who is considered a terrorist, and they themselves define who is a terrorist or not. Now thats not so good as it gives a lot of power that can easily be used for other purposes.
Do correct me if I'm wrong.

[aggie]

this power has been used in many ways i am sure we did not and will never know about. the citizens will never, and in some cases probably need not/should not know everything about the protection of our country.

we have also been involved in assasinations of citizens of other countries for the well being of that country and possibly the relationship of that country with ours.

we are kidding ourselves if we think we have the whole picture.

[Brutha]

If a US citizens are turned, and become terrorists, is this a little like renouncing their citizenship?

How do you know that they are actually terrorists? They don't get a trial.
The government could say that you are a terrorist and you wouldn't have any way to defend yourself against the allegation.

[aggie]

i would like to believe that this type of action would be considered only if someone were identified as someone who was truly a threat to the safety of others...and if there was any question, further investigation/trial would ensue.

like it or not....this is the way the world is now...and like it or not we do have to have some trust in the actions of those making these decisions...

mistakes and indiscretions have occured in the past, (what comes to mind is our own cia agent being outed and put at risk)....and can only hope we have learned and honed our tactics.

a good thing, i feel, is that this information is being shared with the public...we are allowed to be more aware...even if it makes us uncomfortable.

[royster]

Originally Posted by Ilya A K

Well It was hard to read the first article with all the political talking. Too much rounding corners and such. But from what I understand, the government has the right to kill anyone who is considered a terrorist, and they themselves define who is a terrorist or not. Now thats not so good as it gives a lot of power that can easily be used for other purposes.
Do correct me if I'm wrong.

You are quite correct, Ilya.
There are other "laws" that the citizery have never seen, and when one begins to see this occurring, a pattern of intent is clearly seen. The "Patriot Act" was not read by lawmakers before it was put into force, and it is highly possible (due its sheer volume) it was written before 9/11. "Panic Legislation" is what it's called, because it wasn't thought out or discussed or even READ by most members of congress.
The definitions of "terrorist" and "Weapons of Mass destruction" do not apply to the American military, the Pentagon or the CIA, it seems. "Secret prisons" around the globe constructed by American 'interests' apparently do not qualify as "terrorist activity", and under the blanket of "national security" those operations are secretly kept from the public, without any accountability at all.
You can "believe" and "trust" all you want; when you study Nazi Germany you can see that the crimes and corruption become worse and worse; what keeps America from becoming the exact same thing, particularly when it is not held accountable? When citizens shrug off legally killing its own people with "well, we got to do something about those terrorists!" they have forfeited their free will to the wolves, and assisted in the crimes and corruption by being complacent. They clearly show they have swallowed all propaganda...rather than researching the facts.
The pre-meditation of 9/11 can't be denied; it's a question of "who premeditated it", and the facts do not indicate Arabs, Muslims or little elves. It clearly points to factions inside the American government and defense 'industry'. The facts further reveal premeditated murder in order to acheive the endless war America perpetuates. Those choosing to explain this all away with flag-waving and patriotism are essentially condoning the ongoing murder of their fellow citizens; and corruption doesn't just "repent of its sins". It gets worse until it is addressed, or it has killed off everything.
You can call that "paranoia" if you choose. I call it "Historical fact".

[Brutha]

like it or not....this is the way the world is now...and like it or not we do have to have some trust in the actions of those making these decisions...

The world is dangerous because the US doesn't have moral high ground anymore.
In our time war doesn't get won through weapons but through winning the minds of the population of countries.

Winning hearts and mind is difficult if you choose to sell out your own values. The Afghans don't find it funny when some of them get sexually humilated and tortured while being imprisoned by the US.
Lecturing them about the rule of law is also quite difficult when the US doesn't believe in the rule of law anymore.

[aggie]

i totally agree with all the above comments....it sucks...it DID all start with 9/11...and if one thinks about the ramifications long enough, THAT, is terrifying!

i just wonder if there is an answer, if anything can be done at this point...can we put it back in the box or is it all a snowball rolling downhill.

it is true, the us has been so critical of war, and killing, and torture when someone else does it....then we rationalize our own.

we are just scratching the surface with this current admininstration i think, on the deep dark secrets and shedding some light on things we have seemingly had to be complacent about.

i still hope that this issue, now publically known, will at least force some rethinking and guidelines....but the terrorist machine has been loosed for a while now...and i am skeptical and feel a bit fatalistic.

[royster]

Thanks, aggie. The 9/11 Truth Movement gave its best all these years, but unfortuneately, there were well-monied machines against us, and by the time we figured out the best approach, the propaganda was already ingrained. It was at this point I quit fighting my Guide Spirits, and accepted that this is in god's hands; it will play out as it is supposed to. But there is very good news within that thought. And it doesn't mean i stopped speaking out about it; it just means that the "big push" to get the word out didn't work as well as it could have.

What could have been gained had the majority of people demanded a new investigation isn't lost...it merely took a detour. Predictable outcomes tend to be boring, and far be it from God to be boring. Chin up, halo polished, onward fellow soldiers!

Serendipity.Li is one of the best sites for 9/11 study. Here is a link to their most recent article:

When the 'War on Terror' Becomes Genocide

[aggie]

thanks for the encouraging words...fatalistic is probably a bad choice of words...the serenity prayer comes to mind. we really do have to trust a lot of things to a higher power.

[royster]

Originally Posted by aggie

thanks for the encouraging words...fatalistic is probably a bad choice of words...the serenity prayer comes to mind. we really do have to trust a lot of things to a higher power.

I am "a friend of Bill's", so the serenity Prayer means a lot to me. Blessings!

[royster]

For those just becoming interested in the 9/11 story from an "alternative" view (meaning 'other than the official story') here is a good place to start:

The World Trade Center Demolition and the So-Called War on Terrorism

[Gabo]

I find it appalling that any American could support criminal punishment and execution without trial. What is the downside of holding a trial if you are 100% sure the person is guilty? Obviously the trial would condemn the person and justice would be served. When you give the government permission to decide who is guilty on a whim, the only people that can be unjustly punished are those that are innocent.

[BRisky]

Originally Posted by Brutha

The Afghans don't find it funny when some of them get sexually humilated and tortured while being imprisoned by the US.

A few bad apples don't make the whole tree bad.

There are bad people and good people in every military in the world.

[Ilya A K]

Originally Posted by Gabo

When you give the government permission to decide who is guilty on a whim, the only people that can be unjustly punished are those that are innocent.

I'm sorry mate, but I think I just lost you there.
What exactly do you mean by that?

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by Gabo

I find it appalling that any American could support criminal punishment and execution without trial. What is the downside of holding a trial if you are 100% sure the person is guilty? Obviously the trial would condemn the person and justice would be served. When you give the government permission to decide who is guilty on a whim, the only people that can be unjustly punished are those that are innocent.

The justification being pushed is that we don't have police power in the area, so we either kill them based upon the executive's determination that they are a terrorist or we let them go free. This is, in my opinion, a blantant violation of the Fifth Amendment: "No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."

"Whatever disagreement there may be as to the scope of the phrase "due process of law" there can be no doubt that it embraces the fundamental conception of a fair trial, with opportunity to be heard."

- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Frank v Mangum, 237 U.S. 309, 347 (1915).


A terrorist can destroy some buildings, kill thousands of people. We, in response, can destroy the ideals that millions worked, fought, and died for in a single fearful swoop. Who has done more damage to liberty?

[royster]

Another thought to ponder is: If we aren't addressing the criminal politicians' clear-cut misdeeds, how are we to "deal" with a very obscure definition of "terrorist"...a person we only know the mainstream media's outline of? The average person assumes they suicide-bomb but for what reason? "They hate our freedoms"? Are you that easily convinced by the media, yet scrutinise your own brothers beyond reason? The imbalance is clear, and it is not good news.

[Gabo]

Originally Posted by Ilya A K

I'm sorry mate, but I think I just lost you there.
What exactly do you mean by that?

Our criminal justice system is already great at convicting people that have committed crimes. Ignoring a person's right to a trial isn't going to help punish the guilty - they would already be convicted by a fair trial. The only people that get punished by ignoring the right to a trial are those that are really innocent, since they never have the chance to prove their innocence.

[Brutha]

A few bad apples don't make the whole tree bad.

There are bad people and good people in every military in the world.

Unfortunately those bad apples don't get a trial.
John Yoo and company simply don't get a trial.

That's however what's necessary to convince the Afghans that the present US leadership is actually against torture.
Not putting John Yoo on trial is a violation of the UN Convention Against Torture.

Additionally you have to remember that photos who are supposedly similar to the Abu Ghraib photo's get suppressed because the would 'incite hatred against the US'.
It doesn't take much intelligence for Afghans to connect the dots about what those photo's show.

[billionairekid]

I find it odd that there is a thought 9/11 was what brought upon the current situations we are facing. I have some shocking news for you: it started long before 9/11. This sentiment has been growing in America for a very long time and it has to do with our personal and political philosophies that don't serve us as Americans and certainly to not serve the rest of the world.

The way to “save” America if you will is to consciously begin to grow as people which will cause our country to grow. It starts with the people. We have the power. For too long have fear has been allowed to govern ourselves and our decisions. Morals are lost and the pursuit of money seems to be the only interest of America and Americans. Logic has all but left our decision making processes because we no longer base our logic on what is. We base it on fantasies and projections which skew our realities.

The “terrorists” we are chasing have so few numbers that it’s almost a joke to be honest. There are far more prominent threats on the horizon. But the government gains the most leverage with all the fear they’re able to exploit with the idea of “terrorism.” It would be more effective to deal with the cause of terrorism (i.e. the way we treat other countries and the citizens of other countries) than to try and eliminate terrorists. By declaring a war on terrorism, you are giving this small group of radicals extreme amounts of power they don’t deserve.

[aggie]

much food for thought....

[royster]

Billionairekid has it pretty much pegged; nice work.

[supertom]

imo opinion the whole "world affairs" is a ****en joke, might as well be called the conspiracy area. I dont even know why its on this forum

[royster]

Because "conspiracies" are charactor building. Or maybe it's just "current events uncovered", and some have been conditioned to respond with a different mind-set.



Just received this e-mail; take it as you will...

hey did you hear about the Texas Gubernatorial candidate Deborah Medina, introducing the idea that the US Gov. had a hand in 9/11 on the Glenn Beck show?, was on Yahoo news page today....the truth will be out this month...after Arch and Eng. meet in San Francisco for a huge press conference...it is all coming out...but that means the 'second shoe' is about to drop...wonder what they will try this time...? THe underwear bomber was a total setup...to keep us jumpy...and the US 'Intelligence' chief has said it is 'certain' that the dreaded 'terrorists' will strike again...

[garentee]

Just received this e-mail; take it as you will...

hey did you hear about the Texas Gubernatorial candidate Deborah Medina, introducing the idea that the US Gov. had a hand in 9/11 on the Glenn Beck show?, was on Yahoo news page today....the truth will be out this month...after Arch and Eng. meet in San Francisco for a huge press conference...it is all coming out...but that means the 'second shoe' is about to drop...wonder what they will try this time...? THe underwear bomber was a total setup...to keep us jumpy...and the US 'Intelligence' chief has said it is 'certain' that the dreaded 'terrorists' will strike again...[/QUOTE]

Any particular source for this info?