Obama healthcare, accept it or go to jail.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Dharma

The current bills out there will save the patient and kill the economy that has to be there to save the patient. What could go wrong?

LOL. But they saved the patient! But we're all starving. D'oh!

Thanks for the link. It's a bit weird that some folks assume it's either big government or nothing.

[aggie]

for some people they already have the choice of nothing and nothing....

[JMan]

Open up the state lines - let ALL the insurance companies COMPETE.

I want to see them ENTICE us to buy their product.

Let the FREE MARKET do what it should and foster some no-holds-barred competition for market share.

I can only watch one channel at a time on TV, because it's what I choose to watch - I'm empowered as a consumer to do so. Same with radio.

Show me the best product for the price and I'm there.

Let me see what 50 companies nation-wide have to offer and let me choose.

Not just the handful within my STATE.

This should be a NATION-WIDE market.

Let them all work hard to earn our business.

I want choice. And more of it.

But I don't want mandates.

And I don't want the reduction of choice.

[cylon]

Good point. Here's Wolf Blitzer making the same point to David Axelrod on opening up competition. Didn't go over too well.

YouTube - Blitzer Blitzes Axelrod on Healthcare "Competition": Liberal Translation Included

[aggie]

everyone has made good points...it should be about choice and not mandate...but at this point...if people who can't afford it want to be insured...the ensuing reform is our best bet...

let us face it, the parasites who would not choose a form of insurance would just choose to continure to be parasites...which would not be right...


but i still don't understand, if you can't afford insurance presently....why wouldn't you choose to have it to have a better life, than worrying about if it s run by the government or not....if you are one of these people you probably take whatever else the government can provide or subsidize for you.

for others that have always had or chosen to insure themselves...what would really be so horrible if you could stlll chose private as opposed to public...but the government had guidelines that made it more affordable and more effective for you without the restrictions.

[cylon]

You won't be able to choose private. If the public option the way Obama intends it goes through, the private insurers will go out of business. The point is to shut down the private insurers. Not offer a nice alternative. If it was really about making healthcare even more affordable, then there would be more competition being encouraged WITHIN the free-market.

But, I think Obama and the democrats pushing these sweeping government programs are being disingenuous in his motives. They want the government in complete, full control of health-care. A monopoly.

[aggie]

but private is still going to exist, people can still have it if they want, or they will be grandfathered in if they already have it. having more states and the public option and the competition will just make it more affordable. i don't think the intention is to eliminate private insurance. perhaps they will not make as much money, perhaps they will not have as much control over the health decisions of their patrons, perhaps premiums will go down...but i do not think they will be eliminated.

[cylon]

I think the plan is to fine and tax employers to the point that they have no choice but to choose the public option. It will be cheaper for them to have the public option, and the private insurance companies are going to lose all their business.

Because the government is not required to be a competitive business... the rules are different when the government is telling you that you HAVE to have insurance, and making it so that the only viable alternative is government insurance, and they tell insurance companies how much they can charge, and make sure their prices are always lower. It will literally be impossible for private sector business to "compete" with something like that.

But, like I said, I don't see this as an honest way to have health care reform. I think it's an orchestrated effort by the federal government to get rid of private insurance once and for all.

[rei]

i'm all for opening up state lines to encourage competition.

but i think they need to remove the antitrust exemption first, otherwise the private companies will continue to agree on a certain price and this negates real competition.

a bill was introduced Set. 17th and according to this page House Panel OKs Bill Stripping Health Insurance Antitrust Exemption this is close (or closer) to happening.

and i really think, as i said before, the private companies can take a smaller profit margin rather than simply going out of business altogether.

[Parthon]

I don't agree with *just* a government health care system. I also don't agree with *just* a private health care system. The balance is somewhere in between, but the blindness of those that only see these kinds of discussions as black and white or liberals vs conservatives won't ever see it.

Government only health care doesn't work because it gets bogged down in beauracracy and oversight. The machine crawls to a halt as everyone's busy shifting blame and making procedures. It's happened many times before and it will continue to happen.

Private only health care doesn't work either. Take the american system, it's a complete racket. It's expensive because executives and managers are always scooping from the pool of money. Lawyers get involved and get even more money from it. Then doctors have to be insured against malpractice, which lawyers encourage, and insurance companies set the price for. Hospitals in america cost more to run per patient than most other countries. Not because america is rich, or powerful, but because the insurance companies set the price. It's a system of debt, consumerism and profit. GPs are underpaid, overworked and constantly threatened with lawsuits. Hospitals are full of patients and underfunded. Even people with insurance are being refused treatments their policies say they should get. All because insurance companies want to make lots and lots of money.

There are plenty out-of-america systems of all kinds that work. From those that are entirely government controlled, to those that are a mix, and those that are privately governed. There are plenty of stories online of travellers who have experienced great health care at low cost in second and even third world countries. Affordable and decent health care is available, but not while profit is the only thing of value to those in charge.

It would take everyone to put aside being right about their stance/opinion to start working together towards a common goal: a health system that works. The only unfortunate thing is that I think humans coming together to solve such a problem is even less likely that us all sprouting wings and evolving into angels.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Parthon

It would take everyone to put aside being right about their stance/opinion to start working together towards a common goal: a health system that works. The only unfortunate thing is that I think humans coming together to solve such a problem is even less likely that us all sprouting wings and evolving into angels.

Seems unlikely. I think you pointed out some of the big obstacles that are making private insurance much more expensive: lawsuits. But the Obama administration will not make frivolous lawsuits harder to file because they get tons of money from the Trial Lawyers. Make these lawsuits harder to file, open up competition between states... suddenly people have much more OPTIONS than they had before. Suddenly words like "consumer choice" will actually have some substance behind them, other than trying to apply these terms to a government-only plan.

Yet, those ideas are being completely ignored. Why? Because the administration wants ONLY a government program.

But to make a larger point, I think that yes everyone should start talking about healthcare in the context of ALL the options, and not just assume it's government run healthcare, vs. the evil insurance companies. Right now the people in power (the democrats in the house, senate, and the president himself) are framing that argument in those terms. So if the conversation is going to change, the burden is on them.

One thing I just find frustrating is this idea that corporations and insurance companies are these evil, greedy institutions yet the government is made of luminous beings with white light surrounding them. Hello-- big, consolidated power structures are the same no matter what they are CALLED. The only difference is one of them gets to make up laws and punish citizens for not following them.

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by cylon

Seems unlikely. I think you pointed out some of the big obstacles that are making private insurance much more expensive: lawsuits. But the Obama administration will not make frivolous lawsuits harder to file because they get tons of money from the Trial Lawyers. Make these lawsuits harder to file, open up competition between states... suddenly people have much more OPTIONS than they had before. Suddenly words like "consumer choice" will actually have some substance behind them, other than trying to apply these terms to a government-only plan.

How do you propose to keep "frivolous" lawsuits from being filed without cutting down on legitimate lawsuits? I'm a law clerk. I deal with med mal extensively in assisting a judge determine the merits of cases. I am yet to see a single intelligent proposal that would sift legitimate from illegitimate suits.

Originally Posted by JMan

Open up the state lines - let ALL the insurance companies COMPETE.

I want to see them ENTICE us to buy their product.

Would that really create competition? It seems like most Americans don't choose their health insurance--their employers do. Simply opening up potential competition without unraveling the tax breaks and the employer-purchase system seems a bit problematic, as the employer can choose for substandard, cheap insurance with little detriment. We run the risk of simply shifting who makes a killing while patients are dying...

[aggie]

parthon and cylon...i understand and totally agree with a lot of what you are both saying....my point is....what we have now is just absolutely unacceptable and not working for the majority of the population.

and right now, not saying the government is any less big or doesn't havae some problems, BUT the greediness aspect of insurance companies and pharmaceuticals and providers that are bilking the system ARE driving costs up and THEY DO have a big control of what is happening.

my point is what is being offered is better than what we have now.

and i am all for freedom...but some people still define that "what feels good" and they ARE not exercising any responsibility WITH that freedom for their own bodies and health...and when there is a problem, they will be the first ones that will need the help and generosity of responsible tax payers who are finding a way to insure themselves. and the ones who want and feel they need it and can't afford are suffering.

i am just saying you can't throw the baby out with the bath water!

[cylon]

Originally Posted by ThoughtAddict

I am yet to see a single intelligent proposal that would sift legitimate from illegitimate suits.

Well you better get started then! Put your intelligence to work.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by aggie

and right now, not saying the government is any less big or doesn't havae some problems, BUT the greediness aspect of insurance companies and pharmaceuticals and providers that are bilking the system ARE driving costs up and THEY DO have a big control of what is happening.

The answer to any question about "greedy business" to me, is less government regulation, and more competition in the private sector. Make it so insurance companies can compete... watch that video I posted above if you haven't already.

When there is competition, prices go down, consumer choice goes up, and the quality of service rises. Insurance is expensive in large part BECAUSE of the government regulations, and these lawsuits that the politicians need to fund their campaigns.

All I can suggest is that you see beyond "greedy insurance" and "honest, helpful government". They are both interested in power, and profit. Don't be swayed by the hype of how much they just want to take care of you. They want to force you to take their insurance and if you don't, you're in deep trouble. Private insurance has to ENTICE you to CHOOSE their insurance.. and they can do that by competing for your dollar and they do that by increasing the quality and lowering the price. If they are allowed by the government.

We have always had a very charitable country. People can get together and solve this problem with the free market and traditional, voluntary, tax-deductable charitable contributions. There is always a way to solve a problem when you remove artificial barriers.

[aggie]

every thing you say sounds wonderful and "ideal"....i don't think the government is so much preventing the insurance companies from being greedy...i wonder if the ceo's will give up some of their bonuses to be competitive and lower the cost....

[cylon]

I really don't think the government has a right to tell people how much they are allowed to make, how high their salaries can be. I don't think the government should have any role in dictating prices or any other intrusion into a private business unless laws are being broken and they are going to prosecute someone.

The "government" is a collection of ambitious, power-hungry politicians who pander to this side by promising money they are going to steal from that side. They are 10 times more greedy than any insurance company. And if the day comes that they are competing with the insurance companies, you can be sure the coverage will be worse, the quality will go down, and the guys at the top will roll around in all the taxpayer money and buy expensive jets so they can fly to Paris to have dinner with their wives.

I don't think that we should assume that government is the answer to every problem. That seems to be the automatic thought these days "the government should do something about that!" but the government is simply a collection of people who are supposed to be representing their constituents at home. Only problem is once they get there, a lot of them like the view and the perks and decide to make a business out of it.

But, that's how I feel about government. You're free to have a more benign view of them.

[WorkitSmart]

IF Obama care gets passed, our government will control 62% of our economy, which is more than some socialist countries.

Our government has never run anything efficiently, and they're not about to start now. Obama is in way over his inexperienced head, and he's allowing Pelosi and Reed to run amok.

I absolutely cannot imagine the horrendous blow to our economy and unemployment, if this gets passed.

There is still time to fight. Washington, Thurs. noon, a protest is planned. Here is the link for more info..

If you can't go to Washington, then call your congressman.. I've called several in TX and they are listening. Or at least they act like they are! I just told them I'm 100% against the bill.. and pls. go back to the drawing board and start over.

[cylon]

Today is a big day as well in the elections that are going on. The left is afraid they are going to all be thrown out of office, and they're between a rock and a hard place of trying to save their skins, and just ramming this stuff through to appease their extreme-left base.

But I really think the momentum is on the side of no-Obamacare. Even today they are saying it's unlikely there will be a vote this year. The Republicans introduced a more responsible House Bill, but they have about as little legislative power right now as you can get. What they do have is the sentiment of the people.

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by cylon

Well you better get started then! Put your intelligence to work.

I'm not sure there is one...
Either way, it is not my purpose in life to find it, but thanks for the offer.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by cylon

Yet, those ideas are being completely ignored. Why? Because the administration wants ONLY a government program.

Why are you so certain that the whole health care debate is just a cover to allow the government to take total control? Why is it so difficult to believe that maybe, just maybe, they really are trying to do what they think is best for the citizens in this country?

I don't think that the proposed healthcare reform is the best solution, far from it. I do not, however, believe that the goal is ONLY a government ran program. These conspiracy theories take the focus away from where it needs to be, providing affordable healthcare to everyone.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy

Why are you so certain that the whole health care debate is just a cover to allow the government to take total control? Why is it so difficult to believe that maybe, just maybe, they really are trying to do what they think is best for the citizens in this country?

I don't think that the proposed healthcare reform is the best solution, far from it. I do not, however, believe that the goal is ONLY a government ran program. These conspiracy theories take the focus away from where it needs to be, providing affordable healthcare to everyone.

Man, believe me, I wish I could believe that. I really do. But I don't. Probably in the same way you're convinced they have the country's interest at heart, I am convinced it's all a con-job. Now that doesn't mean that some individuals don't genuinely believe that a govt. option is a good thing, but what seems to be happening is they read the details and almost have a heart attack. Are you watching the elections that are going on as we speak? The poll numbers for Obamacare? People are freaking OUT man.

It's not a conspiracy theory when you know the track record of people. You spend enough time studying these people, like I do, the good and the bad points.. and you just know what their next step is going to be.

But hey, if you want to marginalize my argument, and say I'm a kooky conspiracy buff, go right ahead. A lot of the tories in the revolutionary times thought the founding fathers were kooky conspiracy theorists, and their fears about the British Empire were just loony-tunes. I guess you can judge for yourself who was right and wrong.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by cylon

Man, believe me, I wish I could believe that. I really do. But I don't. Probably in the same way you're convinced they have the country's interest at heart, I am convinced it's all a con-job.

I believe that there are individuals in the administration who think that this is what is best for the country. I am sure that there may be some who also have other reasons for pushing for this reform. It just concerns me that we may not see any healthcare reform passed because of this fear that the government secretly wants to control all healthcare.

Republican leaders have publicly stated that they want healthcare reform to fail. Quotes such as Senator Jim DeMint's "If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him." seems to indicate that the focus is on defeating Obama, rather than doing what is in the country's best interest. I guess that just as strongly as you believe that the government is really trying to get full control of our healthcare, I believe the the opposition (at least the politicians) just care about defeating Obama. I believe that they are using fear-mongering and scare tactics to create mistrust for the administration and healthcare reform in general. I am afraid that if their campaign succeeds we are going to be left with no healthcare reform and people still dying because we have a government who is unwilling to take care of its citizens.

I hope I am wrong. If healthcare reform doesn't get passed I hope that the Republicans have a strong alternative ready to present. I hope that all of their attempts at stopping this reform is really because they do have something better, not just because they want to see Obama's plan fail. It is so sad to think that we live in a country full of politicians who are willing to let poor citizens go without healthcare, potentially die, just so they can defeat their opponent. Perhaps worse than knowing that these politicians exist, is knowing that we keep electing them to office.

[aggie]

that is kind of my point....if it works and helps people who cares if it is government run or overseen?

i think some people are so caught up in fear of "government" they almost won't give them a chance to help people and assume it will be a bad thing.

every administration has controlled something....can anyone say "wire tap?"

but not every politician and not every president is out to be a "dictator" which the president that shall not be named....liked as long as he was the dictator....

this has unfairly been labeled "obamacare" and it isn't all about just him...and i have to start thinking people are having preconceived notions because the don't like the man...

[cylon]

Originally Posted by aggie

that is kind of my point....if it works and helps people who cares if it is government run or overseen?

i think some people are so caught up in fear of "government" they almost won't give them a chance to help people and assume it will be a bad thing.

every administration has controlled something....can anyone say "wire tap?"

but not every politician and not every president is out to be a "dictator" which the president that shall not be named....liked as long as he was the dictator....

this has unfairly been labeled "obamacare" and it isn't all about just him...and i have to start thinking people are having preconceived notions because the don't like the man...

Well, you can look at the substance of what I say, or just figure I'm making it all up. Just because someone tells me "you know what, I represent the government, and I've got this great idea for socialized healthcare" doesn't mean I just automatically say "Well, you represent my government, you must be trustworthy! No explanation necessary, go right ahead!"

And most people are like that. I'm beginning to think that people are so enamored of Obama that they refuse to think he might not be the personal savior they think he is.

But, that's that. These elections show that Obamacare is in trouble, whatever comes down the pike is going to be much different than the plans we've been hearing about, so the final outcome might actually have the non-socialized healthcare people being a part of the debate. As of yet, they have been 100% silenced and ignored.

I don't know if you bothered to watch the short video I posted with Wolf Blitzer, but it's an interview with Obama's SENIOR advisor, and he is flat out saying that they are going to be AGAINST any type of free market competitions solution to this problem, while still using words like "consumer choice" in a context that is inaccurate.

Originally Posted by cylon

Good point. Here's Wolf Blitzer making the same point to David Axelrod on opening up competition. Didn't go over too well.

YouTube - Blitzer Blitzes Axelrod on Healthcare "Competition": Liberal Translation Included

Thinking Obama is a handsome, nice person doesn't excuse him isolating half of the voting populace. I'm beginning to think he just doesn't like anyone from the opposition, and his followers are playing along, dismissing genuine criticism in favor of bubble gum platitudes... Frankly aggie the only reason people in this country can sit back and say they trust the president is because we have a form of government that supports dissent. People like me speaking out is the reason we have such freedoms to begin with.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy

Republican leaders have publicly stated that they want healthcare reform to fail. Quotes such as Senator Jim DeMint's "If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him."

They want HIS VERSION of health care to fail because it will be DISASTROUS for the economy and for the nation. That is why they are in solidarity against it... it goes against every principle that conservatives stand for, and they know if they go back home come election time they will be thrown out of office by the people they represent, who are NOT socialists. Did you watch the elections last night? Do you see what's going on? Politicians are expected to do what is in the best interest of their constituents. People do not wan this to happen. Republicans, democrats and independents... they don't want this type of sweeping government takeover of healthcare to happen.

You don't honestly think that an entire political party wants health-care reform to not happen. That's not what that quote says.

Republicans have proposed their own versions of health care. Guess what? They have been flat-out ignored. Which is what happens when you're out of power... no one has to do what you say, so they usually don't.

I'm a republican, I don't want "health care" to fail. But this version of it? Absolutely. And I don't want it to be IMPLEMENTED and then fail... I want it to never be signed by the President. That way it won't RUIN the country.

Believe it or not the republicans are actually trying to do something about this problem too.

G.O.P. Counters With a Health Plan of Its Own

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by cylon

They want HIS VERSION of health care to fail because it will be DISASTROUS for the economy and for the nation. That is why they are in solidarity against it... it goes against every principle that conservatives stand for, and they know if they go back home come election time they will be thrown out of office by the people they represent, who are NOT socialists. Did you watch the elections last night? Do you see what's going on? Politicians are expected to do what is in the best interest of their constituents. People do not wan this to happen. Republicans, democrats and independents... they don't want this type of sweeping government takeover of healthcare to happen.

You don't honestly think that an entire political party wants health-care reform to not happen. That's not what that quote says.

Republicans have proposed their own versions of health care. Guess what? They have been flat-out ignored. Which is what happens when you're out of power... no one has to do what you say, so they usually don't.

I'm a republican, I don't want "health care" to fail. But this version of it? Absolutely. And I don't want it to be IMPLEMENTED and then fail... I want it to never be signed by the President. That way it won't RUIN the country.

Believe it or not the republicans are actually trying to do something about this problem too.

G.O.P. Counters With a Health Plan of Its Own

As I said in that same post you quoted from, I hope that they have a viable alternative so that we are not left with this same broken system. Maybe the Republican Leadership and right-wing media should put forth as much effort getting the word out about their alternative plan as they are spending trying to demonize Obama and discredit his plan.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy

Maybe the Republican Leadership and right-wing media should put forth as much effort getting the word out about their alternative plan as they are spending trying to demonize Obama and discredit his plan.

We got Fox News, that's it. If you're not hearing the message, then maybe you aren't watching any media that is favorable to the right. Because Fox is the only place you will ever hear a single story on how Republicans are trying to help anything, so if you aren't watching, I wouldn't be surprised that you've never actually heard that Republicans are a part of the solution, too.

So, yes, you can just assume that I am demonizing Obama and discrediting his plan, there's no substance to what I say, and that I really am not passionate about what I'm talking about. But if you feel that way then what I'm saying is pretty much falling on deaf ears anyway.

Time will tell, things are heating up and eventually we'll know what the outcome was.

[aggie]

i don't dispute your feelings at all....what you are saying makes sense....but the fact of the matter is, good bad or indifferent...there is a sense of urgency because the people have been waiting so long....

what did republicans do about healthcare for the last 8 years? at least the current admiinstration is trying to do something....why are republicans after those long 8 years suddenly saying, hey wait a minute...you didn't ask me, we didn't get a chance to do anything....how long does it take?

and unfortunately the pundits and the ultraconservatives who are trying to make this all out to be a form of fascism and outright have lied and distorted the facts have not given people a good reason to put trust in them now...

[aggie]

fox news is sooo partisan