New York Election

[WanderingOak]

Has anybody else been following New York's 23rd Congressional district election? All of the sudden, the North Country's frozen tundra is a bloody political battlefield, which could have the fate of the Republican party hanging in the balance.

For the uninitiated, this is the senate seat that was vacated when President Obama appointed John McHugh as Secretary of the Army. While I'm not a Republican, that party has held this district since the Lincoln administration. The GOP chose Dede Scozzafava a moderate state Assemblywoman as the Republican candidate. The only problem is that Doug Hoffman, who was competing with Scozzafava for the nomination, was a sore loser. He went to the Conservative party saying that he wanted to run on their ticket, and has since garnered the support of seemingly every right wing loon in the country from Dick Armey, to Michelle Bachman to Sarah Palin. What was going to be a simple local Congressional special election has become what is essentially a referendum on the Republican party. Bill Owens, the Democratic nominee, is looking on in seeming bewilderment as Hoffmann continuously attacks Scozzafava as not being 'conservative enough'.

With one week until the election, the attack ads from Hoffman's quarter are running every five minutes during the local news. Scozzafava trying to defend herself, running a few attack ads of her own, but she's running out of funding, while Hoffman is being funded by national conservative organizations. What's worse is while Owens and Scozzafava are locals and understand local issues, Hoffman is acting as if he is running for a national office. He's admitted that he doesn't know anything about dairy farmers (there are more cows than people in this district) or Fort Drum (the local military base). Instead, he's just attacking his opponents as being Acorn backed, pro-choice, tax and spend liberals. His national supporters have said that the national issues of gay rights and abortion are more important than parochial matters.

The way I see it, the only thing Hoffman will accomplish will be to alienate the local Republican voters. He's made Scozzafava look downright pitiful, took away her funding, and is probably going to cost the GOP this district, and hand it to Owens on a silver charger.

I don't understand why these wingnuts keep selecting idiots to run for office. It is almost as if in this case, that since they are performing so pathetically, that they might want to lose, and to deliberately spoil the election for the GOP as well. That would discredit the GOP leadership, thus allowing more radical elements to take charge of the party. Yes, it is absurd that the fate of America rests on one small Congressional district. I try to tune it out, but every other house in town has somebody's sign in the yard, and I live three blocks from Hoffman's office. I can't turn on the TV, radio or even walk down the street without being slapped in the face with local politics which have somehow made the national headlines...

[Gene]

The election to select the Republican candidate for the election and then the general election winner will be interesting to watch. I wonder who will win.

[WanderingOak]

Originally Posted by Gene

The election to select the Republican candidate for the election and then the general election winner will be interesting to watch. I wonder who will win.

There is only one election. The GOP selected Scozzafava, and Hoffman is running on a third party ticket.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

There is only one election. The GOP selected Scozzafava, and Hoffman is running on a third party ticket.

Actually my post was about both the primary election which will determine whether Scozzafava or Hoffman wins the primary thus affecting who wins in the general election. Who wins the general election may well be determined by who wins the primary.

Do you think the outcome of the primary will help decide the general election?

[WanderingOak]

Originally Posted by Gene

Actually my post was about both the primary election which will determine whether Scozzafava or Hoffman wins the primary thus affecting who wins in the general election. Who wins the general election may well be determined by who wins the primary.

Do you think the outcome of the primary will help decide the general election?

There is no primary. The candidates for next Tuesday's special election were selected by local county party representatives.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

There is no primary. The candidates for next Tuesday's special election were selected by local county party representatives.

OK, so you are saying there are two Republican candidates and one Democratic candidate running and there is no primary. I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

[WanderingOak]

Originally Posted by Gene

OK, so you are saying there are two Republican candidates and one Democratic candidate running and there is no primary. I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

Hoffman is not running on the Republican party ticket. He is supported by The Conservative Party of New York State. Until this election, not too many people, in or out of New York state have ever heard of this party. As I mentioned earlier, I think his main goal is to discredit the Republican moderates, and radicalize the Republican leadership.

[cylon]

Republicans tend to want to vote for candidates that support conservative ideals. When the person running as a republican doesn't support the ideals of the voters who are going to vote for them to represent them, sometimes they seek out someone who they feel will do a better job of representing them.

Make no mistake: voters have the right to elect candidates they feel will best represent them in Washington. That is what our nation is founded on.

[WanderingOak]

Originally Posted by cylon

Republicans tend to want to vote for candidates that support conservative ideals. When the person running as a republican doesn't support the ideals of the voters who are going to vote for them to represent them, sometimes they seek out someone who they feel will do a better job of representing them.

Make no mistake: voters have the right to elect candidates they feel will best represent them in Washington. That is what our nation is founded on.

You are right there. It's just that to me at least, Hoffman is a step backwards towards the Bush Administration's version of the Republican party. The main people who support him are the radical 'Tea Party' types who want to be the new face of the Republican party. If that happens, the moderates will leave the party, and either become Democrats, or give up on politics altogether. It will leave the Republican party radicalized, marginalized, and completely unviable as an active political party.

[cylon]

Good grief. Good thing you aren't in Washington. Once you get to Washington, you have to stop looking at people as cardboard caricatures and start working with them on the basis that they are individuals who just may care about the country.

Nice to see you are so concerned about the health and viability of the Republican party. If this Hoffman guy wins you're going to see a major shot of confidence in the entire party. There's nothing radical about him, or the Tea Party movement. But, it's always good to marginalize the enemy right?

Which democratic congresspeople and senators do you feel are extremist and are bad for the Democrat party?

[Gene]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

Hoffman is not running on the Republican party ticket. He is supported by The Conservative Party of New York State. Until this election, not too many people, in or out of New York state have ever heard of this party. As I mentioned earlier, I think his main goal is to discredit the Republican moderates, and radicalize the Republican leadership.

Thank you for the clarification.

[cylon]

The point is that the Republican candidate was chosen by the elite in the party, not the actual voters. You can see how the voters feel about having the "Republican Power Structure" dictate to them who their candidates are, and that they should be happy to vote for someone just because they have an "R" next to their name. It appears Hoffman will win and that's because he is representing the views of the actual voters.

Major respected Republicans are backing him, he IS the republican candidate. Hoffman is a republican. He had to choose Conservative Party because naturally, the republican spot was already used up. His only option to run would be as a third party.

Maybe this article will shed some light for those who are interested:

The complete list of Hoffman endorsers is a long one, and seems to include nearly every Republican except Newt Gingrich and Dede Scozzafava, the later of whom is Hoffman's opponent, and the former her only prominent supporter. According to the two most recent polls, the liberal Republican Scozzafava is now in third place, while Hoffman has pulled ahead of Democrat Bill Owens.

The American Spectator : NY23: 'Do You Believe in Miracles'?

[WanderingOak]

Originally Posted by cylon

There's nothing radical about him, or the Tea Party movement. But, it's always good to marginalize the enemy right?

I'm not sure what Tea Parties you have been to, but around here, they are definitely radical. The organizers spend most of their time going off on incoherent rants against President Obama, Mexicans, blacks, Muslims, Jews, Catholics and the Government in general, usually to the cheers of a bunch of drunken rowdy rednecks.

Originally Posted by cylon

Which democratic congresspeople and senators do you feel are extremist and are bad for the Democrat party?

Too many to name specifically. Nancy Pelosi for one, and the late Ted Kennedy as another.

[WanderingOak]

Originally Posted by cylon

Nice to see you are so concerned about the health and viability of the Republican party.

Democracy only works when there is more than one political party.

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

You are right there. It's just that to me at least, Hoffman is a step backwards towards the Bush Administration's version of the Republican party. The main people who support him are the radical 'Tea Party' types who want to be the new face of the Republican party. If that happens, the moderates will leave the party, and either become Democrats, or give up on politics altogether. It will leave the Republican party radicalized, marginalized, and completely unviable as an active political party.

Or, if Obama raises taxes even a fraction of the amount he will have to to pay for his current spending (let alone the colossal bill for health care) taxes will be so high that "tea parties" may be the dominant political force in the country.

Don't write off opposition to taxation as a political concept.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

Democracy only works when there is more than one political party.

And when they are different from each other. Seems to me you want the republicans and democrats to be one homogenized mass (or democrats in other words.) If you really believed that political differences were important you wouldn't be insulting the Tea Party Movement and painting all participants with this racist "redneck" brush.

All the Tea Party Protesters who marched on Washington were racist bigots? Come on. I support that movement. Guess I'm a racist bigot too. Forget what the actual principles they say they are fighting for are, anyone who protests big government is obviously a radical. Just don't tell our Founding Fathers that, they might laugh at you.

[cylon]

Well, here we go. The republican candidate dropped out and is now backing the democrat party's candidate, who will be facing the real conservative candidate, the way it should have been all along.

[Brutha]

Democracy only works when there is more than one political party.

The democratic party in the US doesn't have a coherent line anyway.
Blue dogs on the right and others on the left would be okay. You don't need more people on the right.
I would rather say that you need more on the left.

[WanderingOak]

I just got back from a Bill Owens Rally. Scozzafava was there as well, although she didn't speak. One thing that touched me was how the crowd erupted into applause whenever her name was mentioned. People around here are appalled at how she was treated by Republican media machine. Just about everybody who was supporting her that I have spoken with is going to be voting against Hoffman...

[cylon]

That's because she's a democrat. The republicans went to Hoffman because he was the only one who was actually a conservative.

That's kind of why she had to drop out of the race. Sort of the point of this story.

[WanderingOak]

Originally Posted by cylon

That's because she's a democrat. The republicans went to Hoffman because he was the only one who was actually a conservative.

That's kind of why she had to drop out of the race. Sort of the point of this story.

When the Republicans were selecting their candidate for this election, Hoffman came in dead last among the five potentials. Running on the Conservative ticket was his idea. Most of the local Republicans that I have spoken with are fed up with the way Scozzafava was treated by her party, and are going to vote for Owens.

[cylon]

Republicans don't vote for democrats unless they are democrats themselves. It doesn't work that way. They vote for the people that represent their values. In this case, the person running on the republican ticket was such a bad representative of their values that she had to step out of the race. I don't buy that most republicans you talked to feel that way. There's more to that story. We're pretty much the same all over the country. If they really felt that way... again... she would not have had to DROP OUT OF THE RACE. Most democrats I know wouldn't vote for a republican if their lives depended on it, and even then, they probably wouldn't do it.

I know you want to see this as a republicans are all nasty issue. The real issue is that it was liberal versus liberal, the voters obviously weren't happy with that singular choice, so someone else came along because he wasn't happy with that singular choice either, so he threw his hat into the ring.

He is in the "conservative party" because he had to choose a third party, you can't have two republicans and one democrat in a race.

We'll see what happens Tuesday.

[cylon]

If you want a different perspective on this.

At a time when 73% of Republicans believe their party's representatives in Congress have lost touch with the GOP base, 11 county leaders in upstate New York picked a nominee for Congress who supported the Democratic president’s stimulus package, his health care reform plan and “card check” legislation designed to make union organizing easier. All three items are overwhelmingly opposed by Republican voters - and even by Republicans in Congress.

The decision by county GOP leaders to nominate such a candidate seemed almost designed to provoke the party’s core voters, and it did.

A Conservative Party candidate, Doug Hoffman, entered the fray and picked up endorsements from many leading national Republicans. Newt Gingrich, on the other hand, urged voters to stick with the party’s official nominee. He said a decision by local party leaders was good enough for him, but most Republican voters don’t have such confidence in the party leadership.

......Just nine percent (9%) of non-Democrats are even somewhat liberal while 29% are politically moderate. These non-Democratic political moderates are absolutely essential to Democratic candidates. That’s why Democrats are eager to suggest that situations such as NY-23 indicate a GOP rejection of moderates in favor of extremists.



What NY-23 Says About The GOP And Its Voters - Rasmussen Reports™

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by cylon

Republicans don't vote for democrats unless they are democrats themselves. It doesn't work that way. They vote for the people that represent their values. In this case, the person running on the republican ticket was such a bad representative of their values that she had to step out of the race. I don't buy that most republicans you talked to feel that way. There's more to that story. We're pretty much the same all over the country. If they really felt that way... again... she would not have had to DROP OUT OF THE RACE. Most democrats I know wouldn't vote for a republican if their lives depended on it, and even then, they probably wouldn't do it.

I know you want to see this as a republicans are all nasty issue. The real issue is that it was liberal versus liberal, the voters obviously weren't happy with that singular choice, so someone else came along because he wasn't happy with that singular choice either, so he threw his hat into the ring.

He is in the "conservative party" because he had to choose a third party, you can't have two republicans and one democrat in a race.

We'll see what happens Tuesday.

So you are saying that Republicans and Democrats never vote for people of the other party, unless deep down they are really not the party they claim to be?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy

So you are saying that Republicans and Democrats never vote for people of the other party, unless deep down they are really not the party they claim to be?

No, I'm not saying that because in this case... the republicans are voting for the conservative party.

My point was that, ok maybe there are a few republicans who are going to vote for a democrat. But I'd say they are probably democrats at heart, maybe they registered Republican. But the parties have differences between them. And most independents are leaning to the right these days.

There may be one here or there, but it seemed to me that WanderingOak was suggesting that it is the predominant view, that somehow the majority of republicans are against Hoffman, when it seems to be the opposite of that. I wasn't saying it could never happen, but they are definitely going to be in the minority of the party.