All the Rage Over Health-Care Reform

[WanderingOak]

I just came across an interesting article at The American Prospect, explaining why the Right has suddenly gone off the deep end. I think it is spot-on, although of course most 'Angry Americans' of the Republican persuasion would be extremely offended at the very premise of the article, because nobody likes being told that they are being manipulated as a stooge.

[ar81]

Well, in Honduras, Zelaya was put down.
Democracy exists no more there.
If people let the president to be put down, democracy will be no more.

Obama is black. KKK must hate him.

Obama seems to believe in a health care system like UK (where capitalism was born) that is more efficient than US system. Thosewho protest call it "dangerous experiment", but health reforms are more than 20 years old in UK, there is no experiment, just import of a model. Insurance companies, hospitals and banks are making profit out of these inefficiencies, albeit American citizens. They must hate Obama.

Obama promised change. People fear change. Fear is a tool for manipulation. It was used by right winger Adolf Hitler, as rich people and bankers feared in 1932 that unemployment in Germany could mean a rise of socialism. It can be used now.

Obama promised change. Some people make money with the current statu quo. Change means less profit for them. They must hate him.

What are the motivations of those who protest?
You do not need to be a wizard to figure out.
Change is impopular among those who rest comfortably in the side of statu quo, but change is permanent in the universe. Everything changes sooner or later.

[Dreamline]

Their arguments are either based on lies, misinterpretations or flat out idiocy, so far, that I have seen. The conservative media is just riding the train and letting it get stupid.

At this point in the political game, I don't think I would even admit I was a conservative. But they just can't see the stooges they have become.

John Stewart is having a field day.

Jennifer

[ar81]

In UK, people are amazed about how much heat this reform brought.
UK have had more than 20 years since Tatcher's reforms.
Was it the end of the world in UK? Is it now? No.

Obama reforms go on the same line of action.
US is far behind developed countries in healthcare.

Read this BBC NEWS | Americas | Q&A: US healthcare reform

[YourHumbleNarrator]

Ugh, for all the real reasons people have to debate the system that's been proposed, they insist on protesting "death panels." Pointing out that they'll become the pawns of a political agenda would be worthless; they're too stupid to grasp what that means, nor would their pride allow them to consider it.

Yet (this is my gut talking) I feel this needs to happen. There needs to be social upheaval. Whether it will be for the better remains to be seen, but it's been building for a while and nothing will be gained if it doesn't run its course.

[ar81]

As I see it, it will be a "death panel" for profits of those who make money by not paying Americans when they get ill. Government competition with british healthcare model should create great pressures on the efficiency and customer protection insurance and healthcare companies are offering now.

In other words, as reform passes, it will be a time to abandon comfort zone to start managing a company like a company, instead of an oasis where profit rains and Americans die due to lack of coverage.

How do you dare to kill some innocent profits...???

[MidasGirl]

Seems like the 'death panel' cry-out was beneath low, even for Palin. But hey, if that is what their college educated ex governor has to say, is it any wonder the angry mobs that are going irate over dumb lies? Very telling, just looking at them. It's like the same person in different places over and over again.

[aggie]

this whole "death panel" issue is so absurd, it is almost hysterically funny...i laugh out loud a lot (and curse) while i am driving home from work listening to shaun hennity...until i can't stand it anymore and shut it off.

the "end of life talk" they are so terrified of involves "paying" doctors (duh) to consult with people about health care advocates, living wills, power of attorney, and if it is an option people need or want...the availabilty of hospice which there insurance will cover.....oooo...that absolutely makes one quake in their boots.

what is new here? where have they all been getting their medical care? mars?

sorry, i'll stop.

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Seems like the 'death panel' cry-out was beneath low, even for Palin. But hey, if that is what their college educated ex governor has to say, is it any wonder the angry mobs that are going irate over dumb lies? Very telling, just looking at them. It's like the same person in different places over and over again.

You were being facetious when you said "college educated" weren't you? I don't mean to bash her. I was taught as a child not to pick on the unfortunate. But, as we see from her recent actions, she isn't one to stay to conquer a difficult situation. She quits and moves on.

She's sort of the opposite personality from a Steve Pavlina reader. Native Americans have the Trickster, and they have an opposite figure, who dresses like a court jester in black and white, whose name I can't remember....

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

I just came across an interesting article at The American Prospect, explaining why the Right has suddenly gone off the deep end. I think it is spot-on, although of course most 'Angry Americans' of the Republican persuasion would be extremely offended at the very premise of the article, because nobody likes being told that they are being manipulated as a stooge.

Very powerful article. Thank you.

And, America has changed. There is a war against the Middle Class because when there is a strong Middle Class, there are more restrictions on Corporations, and Government, and when the Middle Class is weak, "not so much" as they say.

[aggie]

we all must be aware, also, as this angry mob mentality plays out....THE REST OF THE WORLD IS WATCHING......

[WelfarestateChild]

Oh please the right? Wth is the right anyway?


Dont be a victim of politics, become a political atheist. It is very liberating.

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by aggie

we all must be aware, also, as this angry mob mentality plays out....THE REST OF THE WORLD IS WATCHING......

#welovetheNHS is one of the trends at Twitter today.... Brits defending their system against U.S. attacks for those who don't have Twitter.

[Gabo]

I think the situation with these town hall meetings shows just how out of touch congress is with their constituents. Americans are normally rather apathetic and lazy when it comes to congress passing horrible legislation, but for once people have actually become active in politics and trying to make their opinions heard.

And what happens? Congress and the mass media claim that these thousands of people all over the country have been somehow organized my a devious, unnamed right-wing group that just wants to hate on Obama and his plan. They call constituents trying to hold their congressmen accountable "un-american" for their activities.

I know a few people who've gone to these town hall meetings, and none of them saw any organized groups among the protesters. Rather, it was the pro-reform side that had many groups with signs (such as ACORN). For once, the American people are trying to give a clear message to their congress about a piece of legislation. And instead of listening and taking the message to heart, congresspeople are ignoring them, throwing them out of meetings, and calling them un-american.

Now obviously there are some extremists who take their protests too far by threatening or damaging person or property, but it seems to me that most of these protesters are regular Americans that are afraid of losing a health care system they are generally satisfied with.

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by Gabo

I think the situation with these town hall meetings shows just how out of touch congress is with their constituents. Americans are normally rather apathetic and lazy when it comes to congress passing horrible legislation, but for once people have actually become active in politics and trying to make their opinions heard.

And what happens? Congress and the mass media claim that these thousands of people all over the country have been somehow organized my a devious, unnamed right-wing group that just wants to hate on Obama and his plan. They call constituents trying to hold their congressmen accountable "un-american" for their activities.

I know a few people who've gone to these town hall meetings, and none of them saw any organized groups among the protesters. Rather, it was the pro-reform side that had many groups with signs (such as ACORN). For once, the American people are trying to give a clear message to their congress about a piece of legislation. And instead of listening and taking the message to heart, congresspeople are ignoring them, throwing them out of meetings, and calling them un-american.

If there weren't any protesters, who got thrown out? Who wasn't listened to? Who was ignored? Who was called un-american? I'm confused.

It sounds as if your friends went to a calm meeting, and someone was listening to Hannity about another meeting that no one witnessed....

Originally Posted by Gabo

Now obviously there are some extremists who take their protests too far by threatening or damaging person or property, but it seems to me that most of these protesters are regular Americans that are afraid of losing a health care system they are generally satisfied with.

It's funny, don't you think, that those who are on Medicare are afraid of the Government-run insurance?

But, Congress isn't claiming anything about the protesters. Congress is on vacation. Senator McCaskill has her own teenagers, so she just asked them if they thought that their rudeness was having a positive influence. They got quiet.

Most of the politicians would really like to hear specific worries or complaints. What they are hearing is "no" "Just say no" "Just say no." Or, something about "Obamacare". Clever maybe, but really not helpful to a debate.

What is difficult to understand....

1. Well, if all the cars cost $40,000, and then when you paid, the company didn't deliver the car, you might see there is a problem. We have this problem with the existing health care.
   
2. And, if it was legal for the car companies to do that, you might see that there is a problem. We have that problem with health care.
   
3. Now, you can choose not to buy a car. But, you can't really choose not to buy health care. If you don't have insurance, and are in an accident, someone is going to take you to the hospital. If you don't have insurance, someone else is going to pay. We have this problem with health care.

So, the government is proposing to offer a low cost insurance for those who don't have insurance. It is also proposing to fix problems 1 and 2 mentioned above.

So, why would anyone say NO!

1. No, I want the insurance companies to continue to deny care when I need it.
   
2. No! Don't change the law. I want the insurance companies to continue to legally cheat Americans.
   
3. No! Don't offer any alternative that will be affordable and will give me a way to insure my family against catastrophic health costs.

It doesn't make sense to most who understand the proposed changes. This is why these politicians are going out to their constituency to explain the changes.... They would like to be able to answer questions without so much shouting that no one can hear.

[aggie]

after listening to a tape of a town meeting...it sounded like an angry mob.

the so called leftists can name names, websites, battle plans on the websites for the so called conservative citizen activists.

some of the leaders are the white collar crime rejects from hca columbia and enron.

one poor black man who was a conservative side protestor ended up injured and he had no health care.

the people are so frightened, they don't realize they are doing the job of the people against the reform and are getting nothing, including any chance for health coverage for it.

you can hear the same baiting questions over and over again, as is in their protestor guidelines, used to drown out a legitimate question and answer.
doors are being broken down. people injured. it is craziness based on a ginned up fear from the conservatists against it.

we are appearing to the world no more civilized than some of news footage we have seen of the so called mid east terrorist mentality of people jumping up and down chanting as they burn some one in efigy.

we have a whole generation of citizens that have been fed for the last 8 years a steady diet of fear....they need to see something different besides a town meeting by the president where real men need to be packing a pistol!

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by aggie

....
the so called leftists can name names, websites, battle plans on the websites for the so called conservative citizen activists.

some of the leaders are the white collar crime rejects from hca columbia and enron.
....
you can hear the same baiting questions over and over again, as is in their protestor guidelines, used to drown out a legitimate question and answer.
doors are being broken down. people injured. it is craziness based on a ginned up fear from the conservatists against it.
....

Aggie, where are these "guidelines"? Let's take their masks off!

[aggie]

i am on my lunch break at work and i usually get this info driving home...but if i can get the website's definite name where this info can be found...i will definitely post it.


ps there is a web site for TPM DOCUMENT COLLECTION ANTIREFORMIST STRATEGY

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by aggie

one poor black man who was a conservative side protestor ended up injured and he had no health care.

Ha ha.......I've been thinking the greatest irony would be one of these people gets seriously injured while protesting for insurance companies, and then have their care costs denied. Karma wouldn't even begin to describe it.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Strem2

It's funny, don't you think, that those who are on Medicare are afraid of the Government-run insurance?

There's the famous one that yelled, tell your government to stay out of my medicare Geniuses I tell ya.

[ar81]

Fearful animals are dangerous.
You see fear being promoted everywhere:
-Fear of global terror (compare the number of US victims of global terror with number of heart attacks in US)
-Fear of end of the world (signals of the end of the world)
-Fear of nuclear war (politicians do not want to die, they will never start such a war)
-Fear in media (horror movies, videogames)

Signals of end of the world?
-Vulcanism (present since Rodinia continent existed)
-Earthquakes (present since plates exist on Earth)
-Diseases (present since life exists on Earth)
-Moon turns blood red (moon eclipses, very common)
-Wars (present sice we have history)
-Starvation (present sice we have history)
-Genocide (present sice we have history)

It means that basically the end of the world began when Earth was born... logically to have an end of the world, we just need a world.

End of the world prophecies:
-Mayan prophecy. December 12th, 2012. Mayan calendar is for agriculture. My dad talked to a Guatemalan Chamán and he said that the expected event will be spiritual.
-Astrology. It is based on Egyptian agricultural calendar that made their astronomy to start measuring seasons using stars. Current astrology model starts with fire (aries) and ends with emptiness (pisces), not the hollywood fireworks show of a nuke war.
-Esoterism. Human evolution has 7 root races. Atlantis destruction killed 4th root race, 11.000 years ago (some say it is more). We are 5th root race. Each root race has 7 subraces. We are not even the 7th subrace. It means that 2 root races are still pending, plus some subraces. That's plenty of time not to have an end in our lifetime.
-Nostradamus: I have the original verses. There is no cronological order, not ordered by topic. They are just random verses, like the one a junkie would write. I found some verses that could predict soccer game results... Interpretations use to be forced to make them fit an idea of things.

Things people do not fear:
-2029 and 2036 Asteroid will pass near Earth. Politicians are doing nothing to stop it. It may take about 25 years of developments to send such a mission.
-2015. Global warming is expected to be irreversible, according to the most noticeable scientists. It is discredited by oil companies who make money producing greenhouse gas. Polar bears, hunchback whales and African elephants would be extinct. Disruption of world agriculture, more than 1 billion refugees in India by 2050 when Himalaya glaciars melt and Ganges gets dry, plus other many problems. World recession caused by natural disasters that destroy resources, cities and facilities. And nobody fears...

[WelfarestateChild]

Originally Posted by aggie

one poor black man who was a conservative side protestor ended up injured and he had no health care.

So what? He broke an arm, that shouldnt cost much to fix at the ER. They get these kinds of problems everyday, they are specialists in quick and quality treatments The best ones get the most costumers you know.


Also i heard he had no savings, apparently he had shares in GM and Ford, so he was in a tight situation to cover the minimal costs of the emergency room visit. Some friends from the movement chipped in, they were being really charitable which was really nice.


Now this guy is really pissed of, first his favorite company goes bankrupt, he looses ALOT of money then his taxes is used to bail them out. On the side, these same tax-overmen wants to create their own healthcare system using his dollars. He is FURIOUS

[aggie]

well, i guess if he doesn't want any govenment insurance he can continue to use the er and see the great specialists and if he can't get his buddies to chip in...the rest of us taxpayers can pick up the bill or the hospital can eat it!
great! now i'm pissed off!

[ar81]

In most of markets, having high demand is good. But not in heath market. Business will try to promote higher demand to make more profit. But higher demand means more ill people.

More ill americans will make Americans to be less atractive for employers. So taxes on non govt healthcare compensates the government deficits that healthcare business will create, but healthcare business will not compensate the loss of jobs they will create.

[WelfarestateChild]

What i think you are trying to argue is that car makers will make sure the cars they make crashes alot? Make bad brakes and such. But the reality is entirely different, because people dont want unsafe cars and thus manufacturers honor this People dont want doctors that makes them ill either

[ar81]

Originally Posted by WelfarestateChild

What i think you are trying to argue is that car makers will make sure the cars they make crashes alot? Make bad brakes and such. But the reality is entirely different, because people dont want unsafe cars and thus manufacturers honor this People dont want doctors that makes them ill either

How do you know a doctor does not make you ill? Patients lack information to make good decisions. Doctors have a quota of profit they must fulfill.

BBC: Are US healthcare protests genuine?

So are the "grassroots" genuinely angry, or are the protests simply manufactured "astroturf"?

[WelfarestateChild]

Someone is going to expose the doctor if he is doing sinister things Someone will want to expose him, his competitors, someone doing it for a living selling stories to the media etc.

Besides, a doctor still needs his pay if he is treating government appointed patients or not. I dont see how a government solution will solve the problem of lets call them evil doctors if it were the case.

In fact what is in bed with government has a much easier time getting away with secrecy and sinister stuff.

[ar81]

Private doctors have a pressure to produce profit.
Government doctors do not.

[WelfarestateChild]

So private doctors have an incentive to be effective and cost reducing, government doctors does not.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by WelfarestateChild

So private doctors have an incentive to be effective and cost reducing, government doctors does not.

No. Most of people do not know about medicine. Many people can't make a difference between pain caused by clot in the leg and cramp. One may require surgery, the other does not at all. A doctor may scare a patient and sell expensive treatments he does not need. A doctor with profit pressures becomes a salesman.