Health Insurance Plan in USA

[thaiduytrinh]

Hey,

I have been hearing a lot about the number of people in the States who are not under coverage of any health insurance and the difficuties in getting ones unless you are employed or old enough. I am just wondering how expensive they are. Are there any system in place that allow people to get what they are willing to pay or in other words simply afford the insurance for basic diseases?

[jamesbiz]

I have no insurance and I'm self employed. Honestly, I've never really tried, but from what I've seen, there are plenty of them out there for cheap. I do sometimes worry about what will happen if I get hurt. But hey, America loves giving **** away for free, so who knows. I'll just " lose" my wallet, and have no ID, and get treated like every other low life suckling on the government tax payer funded teet their whole lives. Or why don't you just wait until the nationalized health care comes in to play? Won't that be fun. You won't have to "pay" for health care anymore, so no need for insurance. Plus, you won't even be able to get your own insurance at that point anyways, from the proposal I've read by BO and his cronies.

[JMan]

My wife and I pay for our own, full medical, dental and vision coverage with fairly low deductables for just over $600 per month.

And the US numbers - 47 million uninsured? If you count those who don't want it, illegal aliens, and those eligable for insurance who haven't gotten it. The real number is closer to 9 to 10 million who actually 'can't afford it'. Health Care Lie: '47 Million Uninsured Americans'

Let's just subsidise those 10 million or so for $5,000 per year and call it a nice 5 billion annual uninsured kitty. Might be cheaper and more effective than having Obamasurance.

[jamesbiz]

Originally Posted by JMan

My wife and I pay for our own, full medical, dental and vision coverage with fairly low deductables for just over $600 per month.

And the US numbers - 47 million uninsured? If you count those who don't want it, illegal aliens, and those eligable for insurance who haven't gotten it. The real number is closer to 9 to 10 million who actually 'can't afford it'. Health Care Lie: '47 Million Uninsured Americans'

Let's just subsidise those 10 million or so for $5,000 per year and call it a nice 5 billion annual uninsured kitty. Might be cheaper and more effective than having Obamasurance.

Yeah that would be nice, but that would mean he wouldn't have complete and total control over everything. DUH. lol.

He already stated that anyone who doesn't have insurance won't be able to get it, and anyone that does better not lose it, and they can't switch or they also lose it. What insurance company is going to stay in business? That's right, non. So there goes another bailout, and take over by the bom administration of the insurance market.

They already estimated that his plan will cost $250 BILLION, so yes, $5 billion a year would be a lot cheaper.

[Dreamline]

I'm not really confident in this "re-inventing the wheel" proposal.

Just go to other countries where it is working, ask questions, modify slightly and go to town.

It's inevitable that we will have some form of universal healthcare and Obama has watched for decades as all politicians do is talk about it. I understand his urgency. We already have about 50% universal healthcare. It's called Medicare and Medicaid and who do you think is funding that? Let's just bite the bullet, get everyone on the same page and move on with life.

It would be nice if people would at least attempt to wean themselves off the pill obsession they've developed and at least attempt to live healthier lives, though. We could all save some green.

Jennifer

[thaiduytrinh]

Originally Posted by JMan

My wife and I pay for our own, full medical, dental and vision coverage with fairly low deductables for just over $600 per month.

And the US numbers - 47 million uninsured? If you count those who don't want it, illegal aliens, and those eligable for insurance who haven't gotten it. The real number is closer to 9 to 10 million who actually 'can't afford it'. Health Care Lie: '47 Million Uninsured Americans'

Let's just subsidise those 10 million or so for $5,000 per year and call it a nice 5 billion annual uninsured kitty. Might be cheaper and more effective than having Obamasurance.

Interesting, thanks for the info. I bet it is not bad for a $600 deal for with dental and vision coverage with respect to the US living standard. I suppose the main reason is the fact that they simply don't want to buy the medical care right?
I am wondering how come people don't go ahead buy ones instead of complaining the high cost of medical check for those without health insurance. Back when I was in the States, I got to know some friends of mine, who have relatively low income, led exceedingly "clean" life because as they said they had no insurance. One example is drinking distilled water(which as far as I know is now really healthy since much of the minerals in the water were removed during the process). How expensive does a simple medical plan including flu, sore-throat, or whatever basic diseases treatment cost that prevent them from getting ones?

PS: Well, I think you guys should open a new topic to discuss universal healthcare, Obama healthcare plan or whatever instead of going off-topic overhere

[jamesbiz]

Originally Posted by thaiduytrinh

Interesting, thanks for the info. I bet it is not bad for a $600 deal for with dental and vision coverage with respect to the US living standard. I suppose the main reason is the fact that they simply don't want to buy the medical care right?
I am wondering how come people don't go ahead buy ones instead of complaining the high cost of medical check for those without health insurance. Back when I was in the States, I got to know some friends of mine, who have relatively low income, led exceedingly "clean" life because as they said they had no insurance. One example is drinking distilled water(which as far as I know is now really healthy since much of the minerals in the water were removed during the process). How expensive does a simple medical plan including flu, sore-throat, or whatever basic diseases treatment cost that prevent them from getting ones?

PS: Well, I think you guys should open a new topic to discuss universal healthcare, Obama healthcare plan or whatever instead of going off-topic overhere

It's not off topic at all. If O has his way, you won't have a choice on getting a health insurance plan in the USA, and wasn't that why you started the topic in the first place?

[funchy]

Originally Posted by thaiduytrinh

Interesting, thanks for the info. I bet it is not bad for a $600 deal for with dental and vision coverage with respect to the US living standard. I suppose the main reason is the fact that they simply don't want to buy the medical care right?

Reasons why Americans don't have health insurance:

- they don't want to buy it and would rather keep the money and hope they don't need the hospital this month. They're convinced they'll never need doctors.

- they can't afford it. The given example $600 a month is a lot of money when your base wage may be only $7/hr before taxes in many places. Take out taxes, rent, utilities, food, car insurance, and gas and you may not have $600 left over.

- they can't buy it for any price. If you've had many types of pre-existing conditions, you can only get partial coverage or NO coverage. In other words, even if you could spend $10,000 a month, nobody would cover you. Some people are forced to hide medical conditions from ending up on their permanent medical record for fear of losing their coverage. Some people pay for insurance for years and when a major event happens, the company drops them as soon as possible. Once you have a major event such as cancers, you may be excluded from cancer coverage the rest of your life, no matter who you buy ins from.

- they're between jobs. Right now official unemployment numbers are around 10% but the real number is more like 20% when you count in people who are no longer eligible for Unemployment, disenfranchised, or others. Lose your job suddenly and you lose both your employer coverage and your income stream with which to buy your own coverage.


There is NO system in place to get you health insurance if you're too high risk.

There is some system in place to help with major medical for the poorest of the poor or the lower income retirees (medicaid and medicare respectively).

The bigger problem is the disconnect between our treatment and the cost. If I was told to get X treatment and I asked the hospital now much it would cost, they'd have to research it and get back to me in a week. Even routine things like dr visits are difficult to find out the true expense of. We can't shop based on price, so the only think keeping them from charging any crazy price are the pay-out ceilings Medicare or other major insurers put on payments.

I am wondering how come people don't go ahead buy ones instead of complaining the high cost of medical check for those without health insurance. Back when I was in the States, I got to know some friends of mine, who have relatively low income, led exceedingly "clean" life because as they said they had no insurance.

When I was young, I went without it for a short time after college. I wasn't making much straight out of school, maybe only $250-300 a week after taxes. It was hard to give away $200/month for something I might not need to use for years, when I only earned $1200 a month total. I had a $450/month mortgage to pay, $250 in utilities, college loans, $100/mo car insurance, the car expense & gas, and groceries. If I put all my free cash into this, if my roof suddenly needed a major repair I'd have no way of paying it.

How expensive does a simple medical plan including flu, sore-throat, or whatever basic diseases treatment cost that prevent them from getting ones?

In the US, the culture/mindset is NOT one of prevention. Nobody wants to be forced to give up their main diet of McDonald's food. I see diabetics who won't give up their candy and end up with neuropathy or amputation. At a former job, a 30 yr old manager lived off only deep-fried wings and the greasiest roast beef you've ever seen, and he had a heart bypass... and he's still eating the same crap and dealing with bloodpressure & cardiovascular issues. We eat crap & are inactive and we think we're being healthy by swallowing a vitamin each day.

I suspect some of the objection to government help with a health plan is that people fear the government telling them to start living a little healthier. Americans don't like anyone telling them what to do.

I do agree something needs to be done. The number of uninsured can only go up, unless we make some changes.

[floslib]

The issue for me is definitely the cost of insurance. I earn $700 in a good month. I haven't been able to find full time work, and I earn $8/hr. Insurance through my employer would cost me $240/month for a plan with a deductible so high that it most likely wouldn't matter if I had coverage or not. What I can afford just isn't worth getting.

Once I've been working for the same company for a bit longer, that price will drop, significantly, to about $50/month. At that point, I will be buying said insurance, assuming I haven't found a better job by then. If I find a better job before that point, I'll likely be getting some health insurance a lot sooner.

[thaiduytrinh]

Great post funchy. Regarding the type number 3 of people having no insurance, do you mean the company which employs them or the health insurance company? It reminds me of Sicko, which is a good movie I believe. Would you guys think the movie painted a true picture of what is happening in the US?
Btw, $240 or smth as floslib mentioned costs really quite a lot for a basic plan.

[jamesbiz]

Originally Posted by floslib

The issue for me is definitely the cost of insurance. I earn $700 in a good month. I haven't been able to find full time work, and I earn $8/hr. Insurance through my employer would cost me $240/month for a plan with a deductible so high that it most likely wouldn't matter if I had coverage or not. What I can afford just isn't worth getting.

Once I've been working for the same company for a bit longer, that price will drop, significantly, to about $50/month. At that point, I will be buying said insurance, assuming I haven't found a better job by then. If I find a better job before that point, I'll likely be getting some health insurance a lot sooner.

Trust me, what ever the deductible is, you will be able to afford that long before you can afford the enormous cost if you had to get some serious surgery out of pocket.

[Lil Chris]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the limits...

Even if you do have insurance, there are limits (this more applies to dental). You could have insurance that costs you 600 a month, then there is a deductible to meet yearly, for my mom for example, there is a 600 deductible that once met then the insurance will pay 80% of the bill, if you pay 1200 then the insurance will cover 100% of the bill (there are still limits to this though).

Let's say you have dental as well, there is still a deductible to meet and there are yearly limits (this varies by company). So if you happen to let your teeth get out of control and you need alot of dental work, you may not be able to get it all fixed in a year. There may be a cap of 1500.00 for work that can be performed. That's like one root canal and a few fillings. So if you exceed this your S.O.L.

Now, let's also mention the non-transparency aspect. Let me use a family member of mine as an example. She has to have a kidney stone removed (it's 7cm), it requires surgery for the doctor to go in and remove it, plus 2-3 days in the hospital. It's not like there is a pricing list for this procedure. So, how exactly are we supposed to plan for any costs involved? Do we just hope that in 60 days after the surgery we don't get a bill for 30 grand... You wouldn't have your car fixed with out knowing how much it will cost... Why should health care be any different?

Also, I suspect there is over inflated billing for insurance companies. Shouldn't those with out insurance get a cash discount? I'm speculating on this one here...

Being disabled myself, I utilize both medicaid and medicare. Medicare pays 80% of the problem and medicaid picks up the rest. My medication costs 5,000.00 a month (do the math) 5,000.00 x 12 = 60,000.00 a year. I pay 3.00 per month, 36.00 a year with medicare. If you ask me, if obama's plan was similar to this most of you would be pretty happy if you we're in my situation (cost wise not disabled wise)... I still get to see good doctors and go to the same hospitals as insured patients.

I for one would like to at least hear Obamas plan before outright dismissing it like most people do...

[jamesbiz]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the limits...

Even if you do have insurance, there are limits (this more applies to dental). You could have insurance that costs you 600 a month, then there is a deductible to meet yearly, for my mom for example, there is a 600 deductible that once met then the insurance will pay 80% of the bill, if you pay 1200 then the insurance will cover 100% of the bill (there are still limits to this though).

Let's say you have dental as well, there is still a deductible to meet and there are yearly limits (this varies by company). So if you happen to let your teeth get out of control and you need alot of dental work, you may not be able to get it all fixed in a year. There may be a cap of 1500.00 for work that can be performed. That's like one root canal and a few fillings. So if you exceed this your S.O.L.

Now, let's also mention the non-transparency aspect. Let me use a family member of mine as an example. She has to have a kidney stone removed (it's 7cm), it requires surgery for the doctor to go in and remove it, plus 2-3 days in the hospital. It's not like there is a pricing list for this procedure. So, how exactly are we supposed to plan for any costs involved? Do we just hope that in 60 days after the surgery we don't get a bill for 30 grand... You wouldn't have your car fixed with out knowing how much it will cost... Why should health care be any different?

Also, I suspect there is over inflated billing for insurance companies. Shouldn't those with out insurance get a cash discount? I'm speculating on this one here...

Being disabled myself, I utilize both medicaid and medicare. Medicare pays 80% of the problem and medicaid picks up the rest. My medication costs 5,000.00 a month (do the math) 5,000.00 x 12 = 60,000.00 a year. I pay 3.00 per month, 36.00 a year with medicare. If you ask me, if obama's plan was similar to this most of you would be pretty happy if you we're in my situation (cost wise not disabled wise)... I still get to see good doctors and go to the same hospitals as insured patients.

I for one would like to at least hear Obamas plan before outright dismissing it like most people do...

Actually there is an over inflated billing for people with our insurance. Insurance get HUGE HUGE price breaks. If normal people got the same deals as insurance, then we'd all be better off. It's down to no one being able to afford health care with out insurance.

Getting a car fixed is not like getting surgery. You take yoru car in, and they can more or less tell you what work and parts you need, and how much it costs. If they go in and find something else wrong, and it takes hours more, they will ask you first. If they open you up and you bleed to much, and they need to give you a blood transfusion, and keep the OR open for a few more hours, then they can't exactly wait till you wake up and ask you. It's very hard to do that. The cost of health care is the issue here. Not the transparency. That's why everyone wants bamas plan. They think it's to expensive, so they want it free. Well, I'm sorry it's not free. I have not been to the hospital in years, and only then, for minor things. Yet, I'd have to pay for everyone else? No fat chance in hell. Not for the fatties that comprise Americas population requiring a whole lot of health care. I'd sure love to go for a double bacon burger right now tho

We've already heard obamas plan. What haven't you heard? What are you waiting to hear? It's all in black and white, and has been laid out in front of you. It will also cost another 1/4 TRILLION dollars of tax payer money. He also wants to take over insurance companies, so no one will be able to get non government health care. Canadians already go to America to get treatment. I'm from communist Russia, and I can guarantee you it doesn't work. There are no rewards for doctors. No one will wanna be a doctor anymore, and health care will drop. Everyone will be going to get things taken care of, and hospitals will overflow. Only about 10 million people can't afford insurance. Why does the whole country have to suffer because of that?

I'll ask you the question again tho. What have you not heard about obamas plan that you are waiting to hear before you make a decision? Where do you think the money comes from for your $60,000 a year in medications? YOU'RE WELCOME!

That's the problem with this country. How do you figure you deserve free medical treatment? Does everyone deserve free medical treatment? Why would someone who pays a lot into taxes not deserve more medical treatment then someone who pays nothing?

[jamesbiz]

PS. do you wanna know why health care is so much? Because of all the free health care hospitals have to give out to anyone that comes right off the street demanding their right to health care. Blame them. " we pass the savings off to you!"

[Lil Chris]

Wow, really do you talk to everyone like this? I'll come back when you are a little less emotionally involved...

Oh, and I'm very grateful for the care I get and I didn't demand ****, it was offered to me (I suffered for 10 years in daily pain first). I didn't design the programs available to me or anyone else (including you), but I'm grateful that they are there to be utilized...

[jamesbiz]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

Wow, really do you talk to everyone like this? I'll come back when you are a little less emotionally involved...

Oh, and I'm very grateful for the care I get and I didn't demand ****, it was offered to me (I suffered for 10 years in daily pain first). I didn't design the programs available to me or anyone else (including you), but I'm grateful that they are there to be utilized...

After hearing all the people around where I live touting how awesome obamas plan for us will be, yes I talk to everyone that feels the way you do about the situation, just like that. You say how great it is, yet admit you don't know anything about it. We came to America because of the horrible nationalized health care my mom was receiving due to her cancer , because no one wanted to be a doctor anymore as the rewards outweighed the cost. obamas plan is going to create that exact same thing. Everyone will try to escape America, to get better health care, but.... there won't be anywhere else to escape to.

While maybe you didn't demand it, almost everyone else seems to feel they deserve and have earned free health care. That's all you hear these days. I DESERVE that. I DEMAND that. Would you be grateful if the government gave you free medical, food, housing, car, etc? Would you accept it? Those programs are out there too, and they are just like medicaid and medicare. At least the older people among our citizens did something to earn it. The people receiving free help now, not only don't deserve it, but they abuse it far more then someone who did earn it. Do you feel that's fair to you? To allow so many to abuse a system, so that a few who won't abuse it get to use it?

I do not like hearing how we DESERVE something. No one deserves anything from anyone. You earn what you get. When you make a system that nullifies any sense of reward for work done, then everything collapses.

Just because you feel that my response was emotional, doesn't disqualify any of my points. Everything was said out of logic, and not emotion. Plus, this is the internet. You can't see what my face looks like, or my tone of voice. If you wanted me to put a after every paragraph, I could have done that. But it would have taken away from the very serious nature of the discussion at hand.

[Dreamline]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

Let me use a family member of mine as an example. She has to have a kidney stone removed (it's 7cm), it requires surgery for the doctor to go in and remove it, plus 2-3 days in the hospital. It's not like there is a pricing list for this procedure.

Wow. That's some kidney stone. About the size of a peach? The average kidney is only 10cm.

So, how exactly are we supposed to plan for any costs involved? Do we just hope that in 60 days after the surgery we don't get a bill for 30 grand... You wouldn't have your car fixed with out knowing how much it will cost... Why should health care be any different?

Healthcare is funky in that respect because insurance companies have made it that way. Insurance providers contract with hospitals and will only pay them what they feel like paying. So if it costs the hospital $20,000 in real dollars to do an open heart surgery, the insurance company may decide to only reimburse $12,000 of that cost. So because of these bizarre contracts, it's almost impossible to get a straight answer from a hospital on how much something will cost a patient, paying out-of-pocket. If they charge you the full $20K, they can get in trouble with their state or the feds because technically the service is available to SOME people at $12K. That ignores the fact that it literally costs the hospital $20K. They take what they can get because the insurance companies not only have their patients and employers by the balls, they have hospitals, MDs, nurses, pharmacies, therapists, home health aides, medical device companies, et al, by the balls too.

What you do is that you call the hospital and pre-arrange with their financial services department. You discuss the estimated costs (no one ever knows how a surgery will go or what the actual final cost will be...so don't expect an exact amount. It's just not possible.), and how much per month they will accept in payment. You must also make arrangements with your surgeon, the anesthesia group, the radiology group and the post-op care people, if necessary. They all have separate billing that come from their private practices, for their contributions to the surgery.

Jennifer

[floslib]

Originally Posted by jamesbiz

Trust me, what ever the deductible is, you will be able to afford that long before you can afford the enormous cost if you had to get some serious surgery out of pocket.

While this is true, the point you missed is that regardless, I wouldn't be able to afford either the deductible or the bill, so I'm better off saving my money than getting expensive insurance that will eat up a quarter of my paycheck while still leaving me in a situation where I would end up with no money should I suffer an injury that requires expensive medical care.

Originally Posted by jamesbiz

We've already heard obamas plan. What haven't you heard? What are you waiting to hear? It's all in black and white, and has been laid out in front of you. It will also cost another 1/4 TRILLION dollars of tax payer money. He also wants to take over insurance companies, so no one will be able to get non government health care. Canadians already go to America to get treatment. I'm from communist Russia, and I can guarantee you it doesn't work. There are no rewards for doctors. No one will wanna be a doctor anymore, and health care will drop. Everyone will be going to get things taken care of, and hospitals will overflow. Only about 10 million people can't afford insurance. Why does the whole country have to suffer because of that?

You might want to double check that. The actual plan that is being worked on does not involve a takeover of any insurance companies. What will happen is the government will offer insurance plans like insurance companies do. In theory, these plans should be cheaper than other insurance plans due to a large number of people signing onto the plan, so costs can be spread out more. People are still completely free to use private insurance if they prefer though.

The only snag I see in the plan is the requirement that everyone have insurance or pay a fine/tax for not having it, since it makes no sense to fine those who can't afford it... if they could afford the fine, they'd buy insurance.

Also, to address the case of there being long lines for health care in countries with socialized medicine, there's a reason for the long lines, and it isn't government inefficiency. It's because everyone who needs health care has access to it. When more people make use of a service, it tends to increase wait times. However, it makes far more sense to treat people who need treatment than to pretend they don't exist.

Bear in mind though, Obama's plan won't socialize medicine, though it will allow the government to compete with other insurance companies, so it will be a kind of hybrid plan. However, the actual providers of health care will be no more socialized than they are now. Private insurance companies are free to continue providing services as well, but they will have to offer a package that is as appealing as the government package if they want to attract business. I see no problem with this.

In short, if they get rid of the idea of fining those without insurance, I'm completely in favor of this plan. Otherwise, I have mixed feelings, but as long as it delivers the affordable insurance promised, then I lean more in favor than I do against.

[Dreamline]

Originally Posted by floslib

While this is true, the point you missed is that regardless, I wouldn't be able to afford either the deductible or the bill, so I'm better off saving my money than getting expensive insurance that will eat up a quarter of my paycheck while still leaving me in a situation where I would end up with no money should I suffer an injury that requires expensive medical care.

Then you default on your bill, like so many Americans do, the hospital eats the cost, their overall costs rise, the overall costs of healthcare rise and we all pay anyway. Just in a different way. We are already paying. Why not just organize it?

Also, to address the case of there being long lines for health care in countries with socialized medicine, there's a reason for the long lines, and it isn't government inefficiency. It's because everyone who needs health care has access to it. When more people make use of a service, it tends to increase wait times. However, it makes far more sense to treat people who need treatment than to pretend they don't exist.

Exactly. The other thing about wait times is that most Americans are under the impression that, under our current system, we have no wait times. We have wait times. Trust me.

Bear in mind though, Obama's plan won't socialize medicine, though it will allow the government to compete with other insurance companies, so it will be a kind of hybrid plan. However, the actual providers of health care will be no more socialized than they are now. Private insurance companies are free to continue providing services as well, but they will have to offer a package that is as appealing as the government package if they want to attract business. I see no problem with this.

Me neither.

The problem is that no one will want to concede anything. The insurance companies will never accept less profit than they are currently making. No one wants to pay higher taxes. The MDs and medical providers, already being raped for decades by managed care and capitation, will never accept less than they are already making. The patients will never have the willpower to lead healthier lives and will never stop expecting magic bullet cures, will never accept that there may come a time when their unhealthy lifestyles WILL be the death of them and no one is going to be able to save them from themselves, nor will they accept that if THEY think they need a CAT scan, or an MRI, or constant Viagra for their seven times a day sex habit, or the latest drug they see on TV, that they may not actually qualify for it and suck it up. They may actually have to stop trying to be their own doctors.

EVERYONE will have to concede something or it won't work.


Jennifer

[jamesbiz]

If you've ever actually talked to a doctor, most medicines are pushed by the pharmaceutical companies, and the doctors are more willing to give them a non generic medicine, vs a much cheaper generic one due to their influence. Plus, it's all the fault of who ever decided that from now on, it's ok to put commercials of PRESCRIPTION drugs on tv. On top of that, the drug companies in America have such a tough time putting their drugs on the market, after 5-10 years of testing, that by the time they get the chance, they have to make their money back before their patent is over, and anyone can make the generic form of that drug. Again, blame the government for that. Other countries are far superior then us with medicine, because they have less red tape. While some red tape is important, drug companies would police them selves anyways, and with out such a huge loss of profit, they'd be more willing to make a drug that works the first time.

As far as MRI's and CAT scans. Blame lawyers for that. Doctors have to cover their backs because everyone wants to sue them.

If you ever talk to a doctor, they will tell you obamas plan SUCKS. They are already getting screwed enough as it is. You really want them hating being doctors even more? No thanks. All the doctors that I know, hate everything about his plan for our medical futures. They will quit, they will find other practices, they will go to other countries, or who knows what else. But one thing is for sure, they will not stand for this, and we will be suffering even more. 75% of the 40 million people with out insurance can afford it. They choose not to. Let that be their choice. I'm not paying for their medical care. Same goes for illegals.

[floslib]

Originally Posted by Dreamline

Then you default on your bill, like so many Americans do, the hospital eats the cost, their overall costs rise, the overall costs of healthcare rise and we all pay anyway. Just in a different way. We are already paying. Why not just organize it?

I'm aware of this, which is why I'll be getting insurance as soon as I can reasonably afford it. As it stands, I'd default on the bill whether I have insurance or not, and the price of insurance is ridiculously high in comparison to what I earn. Basically, as soon as I find a better paying job or other way to earn money, I'll be snatching up health insurance as one of my first purchases. I'll also snatch it up if Obama's plan gives me an affordable alternative.

I do agree we ought to organize it, as it would likely be cheaper for everyone in the long run to do so. I think we're more or less in agreement on this though, especially from your responses to my other points.

Originally Posted by Dreamline

The problem is that no one will want to concede anything. The insurance companies will never accept less profit than they are currently making. No one wants to pay higher taxes. The MDs and medical providers, already being raped for decades by managed care and capitation, will never accept less than they are already making. The patients will never have the willpower to lead healthier lives and will never stop expecting magic bullet cures, will never accept that there may come a time when their unhealthy lifestyles WILL be the death of them and no one is going to be able to save them from themselves, nor will they accept that if THEY think they need a CAT scan, or an MRI, or constant Viagra for their seven times a day sex habit, or the latest drug they see on TV, that they may not actually qualify for it and suck it up. They may actually have to stop trying to be their own doctors.

This is also true, though I think we'll find after the initial tax increase, taxes will actually go down once the system is in place and moving along. Since more people will have access to affordable health care (assuming it's done well), we'll be less sick on the whole. Sure, there will still be people who don't understand how to take care of themselves, but those who want to be healthy will have more of the tools they need to stay that way, and will end up needing expensive health care services less often. This will be cheaper in the long run, even if there is an up front cost to get started. Of course, we actually need people to understand that and be willing to pay that cost.

I know I'm not really in a position to say much though, as my tax contribution would be minimal at this time. That said, even if I pick up a better paying job tomorrow, I'll still be in support of this, as I think it's important for everyone to have health care, and because it's good for everyone when more people are healthy.

[jamesbiz]

Originally Posted by floslib

I do agree we ought to organize it, as it would likely be cheaper for everyone in the long run to do so.

Name one thing the government has made better by taking over?

Also, health care doesn't make people less sick. It makes people have less symptoms, for now. It's about treatment, and not prevention. What you will see is more and more people being sick, by being on more and more drugs, because of more and more new illnesses that keep being "found". Only 10 million people can't afford health case in this country. That's not much. Everyone else chose to not have health care.

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by jamesbiz

Name one thing the government has made better by taking over?

Roads, military, police power in general, automobile safety, drug safety, food safety, unemployment benefits, workplace safety, child labor, libraries, and a system of justice, to name a few.

It's about treatment, and not prevention. What you will see is more and more people being sick, by being on more and more drugs, because of more and more new illnesses that keep being "found".

Disagreed. Problems have a tendency to get worse in the human body. A simple, treatable cancer eventually becomes terminal. The treatment early may be a short, computer assisted radiation treatment of the tumor, after which the cancer goes into remission. It could also be minor surgery. Later, after the cancer has spread, the treatments can be multiple rounds of chemo and high doses of painkillers just to provide a few more years.
I just saw this precise med mal case. Failure to detect, by the doc, a cancer that could have been treated easily and cheaply. Instead, the young woman is terminally ill, with the cost of her medical bills alone spiking into hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Early treatment IS prevention.

[Dreamline]

Originally Posted by floslib

That said, even if I pick up a better paying job tomorrow, I'll still be in support of this, as I think it's important for everyone to have health care, and because it's good for everyone when more people are healthy.

Don't you have clinics where you are?

Jennifer

[JMan]

hmmm....still trying to verify the source, but here's a list of some of the current bill's highlights:

Subject: A few highlights from the first 500 pages of the Healthcare bill in congress



Contact your Representatives and let them know how you feel about this. We, as a country, cannot afford another 1000 page bill to go through congress without being read. Another 500 pages to go. I have highlighted a few of the items that are down right unconstitutional.



. Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
. Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
. Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
. Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
. Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
. Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
. Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
. Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
. Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
. Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
. Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
. Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
. Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
. Page 124: No company can sue the government for pr ice-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
. Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
. Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
. Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
. Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
. Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
. Page 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
. Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
. Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
. Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
. Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
. Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
. Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
. Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
. Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
. Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
. Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
. Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
. Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
. Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
. Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
. Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
. Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
. Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
. Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
. Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
. Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
. Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
. Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
. Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
. Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
. Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
. Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
. Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
. Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

[jamesbiz]

shhhh... you don't wanna throw logic into this train. All people want to hear is how everything gonna be all super better.... and FREE.

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by JMan

hmmm....still trying to verify the source, but here's a list of some of the current bill's highlights:

Subject: A few highlights from the first 500 pages of the Healthcare bill in congress
. . .

I checked a few of the references at random (p 58, 59, 298). They don't say what is alleged. Now, those pages do mention the subject matter alleged, but they don't require what it is alleged they require.
It could be an honest mistake. It could be intentional. Either way, these types of mistakes make me doubt the entirety...

[Brutha]

Again, blame the government for that. Other countries are far superior then us with medicine, because they have less red tape. While some red tape is important, drug companies would police them selves anyways, and with out such a huge loss of profit, they'd be more willing to make a drug that works the first time.

Which country do you consider to have less red tape than the US here?

In Germany we ban advertising for perscription drugs but I would rather call that an increase in red tape.

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by JMan

My wife and I pay for our own, full medical, dental and vision coverage with fairly low deductables for just over $600 per month.

And the US numbers - 47 million uninsured? [/url]

One problem is cost. I can't get health ins. for myself alone for less than $800. That's a lot per year - Guess what, I'd rather go to my doctor and pay, which I do. That cost me $300 last year. Big difference, umm, $9600 vs $300. No brainer for me.

Another problem is that health ins companys have Rescission of Coverage. This is where they cut you off if you start to cost them money. I had a friend, a local businessman, who had health ins. for his family. A daughter was born with birth defects. She needed 3 operations. After the first two, the "insurance" co. called and told him that his policy was being cancelled. Apparently, he had not included his asthma treatment when he was 10 years old on his application. He had never been treated after that and obviously didn't really have asthma, but they called it fraud. They not only cut him off but billed him for the first two operations, AND, his daughter died without getting the third operation!

So, the system we have now, I claim, is fraudulent. Don't believe you really have insurance. Another woman was rescissioned for "lying" about her weight as soon as they realized she had breast cancer.

My final story was a guy I worked with. He developed AIDS early on, in the late 80's. He was in and out of work but our boss kept him on so he could keep his health "insurance". Well, after a couple of years he was told that he had reached his "LIFETIME LIMIT"! Did you know that you had one? He had to be fired and go home to his mother who was, luckily, still alive. He had to go on Welfare and Medicaid to continue his treatment. Now, he was in his early 40's and had worked and paid into the system since he was 16 years old! What kind of system is this?

This is not uncommon. I work with children, and a set of quads who developed Staph Aureus that was eating their bones, reached their lifetime limit before they were two years old, and the whole family lost their insurance, forever I guess....

-- Finally, these CEO's, who don't honor their contracts, earn millions of dollars.

Thank you so much thaiduytrinh for asking! Can you think of any country that has a more dishonest and STUPID system?

Now, for those of you who haven't learned that you don't really have insurance at all, the President will allow you to continue to pay thousands of dollars to an insurance company who will pay out $300 to your doctor or so, as long as you are healthy and don't develop high blood pressure or breast cancer. You can keep your doctor. At least, that's the plan. We still have to wait for the house and the senate to mush their two plans together, for it to go to the rules committee, and for the congressional budget office to take another look, and for them to figure out which way to pay for it..... THis is not an overnight fling.

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by Dreamline

I'm not really confident in this "re-inventing the wheel" proposal.

Just go to other countries where it is working, ask questions, modify slightly and go to town.

The problem with what you're talking about, single payer, is that the insurance/health industry is 16% of our current economy. That's almost 20% or 1/5th of the American economy.... He can't mess with it, or our recession will be much worse. It employs a lot of people.

So, the public option is a way to keep the insurance companies alive, but to force them through competition to scale back. (United Health Care just posted record profits last month- in spite of the recession!) They can afford to scale back.

When people realize the public option is more affordable and works, then as more and more people gravitate over, the entrepreneurs and small business people first, and then those who are fed up with their private insurance fighting with their doctors over every procedure, and then eventually we will have what other countries have -- public insurance for regular stuff and private insurance for cosmetic surgery and those things not covered by the public option.