Math and Science Education in America

[funchy]

Originally Posted by WordKeeper

I am deeply concerned with the state of math and science education in our nation. I have been reading a number of books on globalization and economic trends and it does not bode well for our nation.

Sad but very true.

ON a micro level, as a mother, I am not pleased with the math and science education that is available to our children. I have been talking about this in recent weeks and one former teacher told me that her experience is that if the curriculum is too tough then the administration's response is to water it down.

This is true. Sadly you are outnumbered by parents who DON'T want their kid challenged. It might "hurt his self esteem". Or "he learns slower". Or "he should learn when he feels like it". Or whatever.

Schools also have lots of pressure to keep passing kids through grades and then graduate them. Who cares if a high school graduate can barely read?

You are wise to be concerned. I love your idea of encouraging learning outside of school. The bigger picture is that he's in an unsuitable learning environment. If you get him to learning more advanced things, he will be bored to tears in class. He might quit doing classwork or act out because of boredom. Schools are often reluctant to push a kid ahead a grade. And it sounds like this school's overall curriculum is just a bit substandard. Have you considered homeschool or sending him to a charter school? Is private school an option?

It's great you're looking out for him in this way. I bet he'll go far in life!

[CoolBee]

Originally Posted by funchy

Sad but very true.

This is true. Sadly you are outnumbered by parents who DON'T want their kid challenged. It might "hurt his self esteem". Or "he learns slower". Or "he should learn when he feels like it". Or whatever.

So true, even in Europe. Continuing declines in the number of kids studying maths and physics at university.

There is no incentive, first of all the subject matter is difficult and secondly, if you stay in your field, and do get your degree/phd whatever, there are very few jobs and the pay is crap.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

Q1 what is 15% of 100? - use your head or calculator or scratch paper as you like. Nearly EVERYONE got the SAME WRONG ANSWER 6.67!!!! Took me AGES to figure out why!

Q8 inflation this year is 5%. Last year it was 6%. Does this mean (a) things are getting cheaper (b) things are the same price (c) things are getting more expensive.

I don't see those as issues with math. I see them as language comprehension issues.

[CoolBee]

I don't agree - especially the first one which was actually presented as:

15% of 100 = ?

These were all native English speakers with good English qualifications so language comprehension should certainly not have been an issue. Most of the applicants had at least A-level standard qualifications (these are the age 18 exams you do in the UK to gain entrance to BA / BSc courses at university) so to not comprehend the meaning of the word 'inflation' at that level is an even worse indictment of the education system!

[Angela]

The "issue" there is that people answering didn't understand what is meant by "percent" or "%" or "inflation." Of course people aren't going to answer questions correctly if they don't understand the meaning of the words and symbols in that question. Figuring a mathematical answer would be easy for these people, I'm quite sure, if they had understanding of the question.

And I agree with you that it doesn't say much for the educational system that they don't understand those terms by that point.

[Acting Like Godot]

But Angela, there is only one English word in this:

15% of 100 = ?

And "of" is not a very difficult word.

[Acting Like Godot]

In many international studies, kids in my country are ranked as having the world's highest standards in science & maths.

Here are some typical questions that 12-year-olds would be expected to do:



Let me know what you think ....

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

But Angela, there is only one English word in this:
And "of" is not a very difficult word.

Who said anything about English words?

If someone doesn't understand the components (words & symbols) of the question you're asking, then they're not going to give an answer that's "right" to you.

So if you ask someone what is 15% of 100, and they don't understand the concept represented by "%", it's not necessarily that they're bad at math; the issue is that they don't understand what they're being asked for. (In this case, they thought they were being asked how many times 15 fits into 100, the math of which they answered correctly.)

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

In many international studies, kids in my country are ranked as having the world's highest standards in science & maths.

Here are some typical questions that 12-year-olds would be expected to do:

Let me know what you think ....

What country is that? Surely not England (from here referred to as FatChavland)?

I panicked on those questions for a sec. Then I remembered basic algebra!

Frankly I don't care about standards of education. We can all go to hell, it'll be fun.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

You know I can imagine a day whereby we have less teachers and we use video showing outstanding teachers on a large screen that does professional presentations. Then the teachers in the classroom could pause and ask questions and make additional comments.

Each student could be exposed to the best teachers in the world.

I think there's a way to keep it moving and not boring too. With recorded videos they could incorporate animals, cartoon characters and so forth. In geography they actually feel like they were there for example.

That this could even be *thought* to be a good idea, for reaching real, live human beings, makes me very sad. There is a whole world outside of the classroom - more schools need to OPEN their doors and FREE the kids.

I love YourHumbleNarrator's suggestion of schools being more like Sudbury Valley - the thing is, you still have SO many people who think kids MUST be forced to learn a certain body of knowledge, that there are not very many people who could be facilitators or staff members at those schools - the whole idea is to support what the kids are interested in, and completely drop the idea of "getting" them to learn ANYthing.

I wish everyone here could know the unschooling families I know - kids who are ALIVE and EXCITED by life and learning. You could see how schools rob most kids of who they are, rob them of the deep sense of self that comes from just BEING in the world, being supported in who they are, with no agenda.

You could see with your own eyes the results of allowing kids true freedom in what they pursue. All I can do is keep raising my own kids this way, support other families who want to do the same - and keep nurturing that part in myself, too!

Kids will learn math & science if they are allowed to live in the world with REAL math & REAL science - not the stuff they find in books, or in experiments designed by curriculum pushers - but in just living. Math & science are so much a part of our world, you can't help but learn about them if you're alive! What kids get in school is the *language* of math & science, not math & science itself. Let kids live in the world, expose them to the language, and they'll KNOW it, not memorize it.

A lot of links related to this discussion can be found in this thread, if anyone wants to read further about schools being designed for an industrializing nation, unschooling, and Sudbury Valley.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

I don't agree - especially the first one which was actually presented as:

15% of 100 = ?

As that article quoting Malcolm Gladwell, linked earlier, explains:

Even fractions are easier for Asian children because they are more easily understood and conceptual. For example one-half (fifty percent) is understood as 百分之五十 (bǎi fēn zhī wǔ shí) or literally, fifty parts out of 100 parts. And because math is more easily understood, Asian children "get" math faster than their Western counterparts. This, Gladwell writes, has nothing to do with some sort of innate Asian proclivity for math.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by carenkh

kids who are ALIVE and EXCITED by life and learning. You could see how schools rob most kids of who they are, rob them of the deep sense of self that comes from just BEING in the world, being supported in who they are, with no agenda.

You could see with your own eyes the results of allowing kids true freedom in what they pursue. All I can do is keep raising my own kids this way, support other families who want to do the same - and keep nurturing that part in myself, too!

Absolutely.

The apathetic mercenary attitude in most schooled kids is distasteful.

[Brutha]

So if you ask someone what is 15% of 100, and they don't understand the concept represented by "%", it's not necessarily that they're bad at math; the issue is that they don't understand what they're being asked for.

Understanding mathematical concepts is what being good at math is all about.

There are certainly purist mathematicians who wouldn't count % as a mathematical concept (and write 0.15 instead of 15%) but in our world a lot of people who aren't deep into math think that % is a mathematical concept and therefore it makes sense to understand it.

There are two different ideas of what math is about.
One is basically that competence in math is about doing basic computation and knowing things like percentages and cross-multiplication that normal people can use in their daily lifes.

The other is the thing that university professors understand under math is about theorems and proofs.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Understanding mathematical concepts is what being good at math is all about.

Did you see my later post, Brutha? I think we're understanding this similarly.

I think that with the linguistic disadvantage we have, it would be helpful to teach math so that that disadvantage is accounted and compensated for, if we want to compete educationally with cultures who already have that advantage.

In other words, our teachers have to be better communicators.

[Teraleth]

But if someone doesn't understand that % means parts of a whole hundred, it's still their problem. Sure, it could be worded into "If I were to take part of the number 100 so that the amount I take is proportional to the equation of taking 15 out of every 100 (that is, 15/100 or 0.15 if it is scaled down so 100 is equivalent to 1), how much have I taken?" However, writing it like that is a lot more cumbersome than saying "What is 15% of 100?" It's also a lot more confusing. In fact, mathematics while conceptual in nature (the idea behind addition for example is taking two things and putting them together) is still so symbolic you can't ignore the symbolic side of it (addition is symbolized as +, multiplication as *, percentages as %, and so on). To say that the applicants for the job might have not understood what the % symbol represented but could still be good at math (ie. pass the test) if they knew what it represented is analogous to a first time driver getting in the car without help, failing the driving test, and then saying that he or she may be good at driving but just didn't know what all the pedals and switches did. While it's true (the person may turn out to be a good driver once he/she learns what P, D, N, etc. mean and the job applicant may turn out to solve that question easily if he or she could associate % with "parts of one hundred"), the fact of the matter is that the driver didn't really know how to drive and is currently bad at driving with only the potential and the applicant doesn't really know mathematics and only has the potential to be able to do it.

Whether the problem is that the educational system failed to associate the concept with the symbol for the student or the that student failed to take the symbol taught and link it to the concept (I tend toward the latter, as while a little more help from the educational system wouldn't hurt it's still the student who should be the driving force in their learning), I don't know. However, the fact that those people were taking 100/15 as the answer shows that they knew % meant something to do with division (division = taking a part of something) makes me think that they were introduced to the concept properly in school but failed to internalize it. Which is why I say it's their problem and not the communication. =P

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Teraleth

. Which is why I say it's their problem and not the communication. =P

Well, I hope you're not a math teacher.

[Teraleth]

Haha. =P Don't worry, whenever I decide to tutor somebody with their math, I try my best to communicate the concepts clearly to them. Some students seem to not want to take the time to really learn it though. A lot of the people I found who needed the help were just looking for rote brute force style shortcuts and did rather bad impressions, pretending to try and learn what I was trying to teach them. But I guess that type of person would naturally need help in the first place, so it doesn't prove true for the general population. Unless that is the common person, but I never paid attention to any of my classmates in math class.

[Angela]

That's great. There are lots of people who seem to have an innate talent for grasping the abstract concepts of mathematics and running with them, and others who have a different way of thinking that slows or stops them in math. It's not that they are stupid, or that they can't get good at math; it's just that they need more help *getting* that particular way of thinking programmed into their heads.

Just like some kids have a hard time *getting* understanding or enjoyment from reading assignments.

I think there's a tendency, at least in the U.S., to do the rote memorization work with kids. I think it would be really wonderful if kids were helped to actually shift their way of thinking, so that they could easily and effortlessly excel (or at least explore and have fun with) all kind of different subjects, without feeling like dummies.

One thing I think is really dumb is teaching kids algebra at age 13 (freshman year high school) just when their hormones are raging! I think it would make a lot more sense to get them comfortable with algebra long before puberty -- start giving them some of concepts and the habit of layering in understanding as early as age 7, 8, or 9.

[WordKeeper]

Dreamline - I almost dropped my jaw when I read your post. Gladwell's Outliers had a profound effect on my thoughts. I am so glad to have read it at this stage of my parenting. He is exceptionally interesting and a keen analyst.

I was fascinated by his analysis of the Chinese numbers and thought about teaching them to my son. I think it is a fantastic concept and worthy of consideration. I'm glad that thought was brought up in this conversation.

Lauxa - FABULOUS sites. I can't thank you enough. I am so excited about it. Camp starts tomorrow and I can't wait to incorporation some of your suggestions.

Here are a couple of sites for you:
This one has excellent experiments, it is one of my favorites:
Make an Electromagnet - Science Bob

This is the most difficult but doable with 8 year olds:
Simple Electric Generator - Video

These are from a kindergarten teacher and very well done:
Ms. Lee's Kindergarten Experiments with Science

This site has a couple of good ones, worth checking out. I liked the flight ones:
YES Mag's Projects

The "elements" game. Excellent:
Elementeo - Elementeo Chemistry Card Game

Awesome coke/mentos videos:
EepyBird.com: Entertainment for the Curious Mind

Printout of the periodic table:
http://chemistry.about.com/library/P...namescolor.pdf

Fabulous game for learning the times table:
Multiplication Tables


Funchy, you wrote:

The bigger picture is that he's in an unsuitable learning environment. If you get him to learning more advanced things, he will be bored to tears in class. He might quit doing classwork or act out because of boredom. Schools are often reluctant to push a kid ahead a grade. And it sounds like this school's overall curriculum is just a bit substandard. Have you considered homeschool or sending him to a charter school? Is private school an option?

Your comments require quite a complex reply. You raise a very interesting point and one that I will have to consider but here is a very short version of why I plan to keep him where he is. Until January he was enrolled in an excellent private school. My nephew who is studying aeronautical engineering at Stanford attended the same private elementary school. It is excellent but is is a one-size fits all attitude. My nephew was quiet and studious, my son, equally intelligent is loud and cannot sit still. He learned well at the school but was treated horrendously and HATED going. So I moved him to the much more affordable and very good public school.

Let me give you a prime example of the problem with the public school he attends: I learned in mid-March, that although my son was working on addition and subtration (as he had been since August) most of the other children were on multiplication tables. I immediately contacted the teacher and realized that the public school allows students to work "at their own level". Well his preferred level is VERY LOW. But a month later when the students were give some form of standardized tests he scored 80% out of the "gifted" students in math. When I brought up this discrepancy to the adminstration their response was, "we sorry but we cannot accommodate him because he did not score above average on the other 2 sections." They are not the least concerned that he was lagging behind the class in substance and yet performing higher than most in ability. A similar experience in reading.

He would love to do little and the private school required much of him but the public school requires little. The biggest advantage with the public school is that homework is less than one hour whereas the private school was 2 1/2 to 3 every night - at 7 years old. Way too much.

ALG - those are some awesome problems. What nation?

[Brutha]

However, writing it like that is a lot more cumbersome than saying "What is 15% of 100?" It's also a lot more confusing. In fact, mathematics while conceptual in nature (the idea behind addition for example is taking two things and putting them together) is still so symbolic you can't ignore the symbolic side of it (addition is symbolized as +, multiplication as *, percentages as %, and so on).

% is an unit and not something integral to mathematics like addition.
The way that that degree and radians are units that you don't need to do math.

Writing sin(0.5)=0.479 is the way you would usually in math in university.
Some people however write stuff like: sin(0.5)=0.479 rad
You can do all of probality theory by writing p=0.5 instead of p=50%.

From a simplicity perspective p=0.5 and sin(0.5)=0.479 look better.

That in some sense similar to the push to use si-units instead of stange units like inches and pounds.
In medicine people use mmHg to measure pressure instead of a good unit like pascal

Now the reason those students never heard something about % might be that you have math teachers in your area that prefer to use p=0.5 instead of writing p=50%.
0.5 is simply a nice rational number while you need additional definition to add a symbol like % and that goes against a purity approach.

Of course the problem could also lie in the fact that they really didn't know math .

ALG - those are some awesome problems. What nation?

Singapore.

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by WordKeeper

Lauxa - FABULOUS sites. I can't thank you enough. I am so excited about it. Camp starts tomorrow and I can't wait to incorporation some of your suggestions.

And thanks for sharing your sites in return, I will definitely check those out!

Originally Posted by WordKeeper

Let me give you a prime example of the problem with the public school he attends: I learned in mid-March, that although my son was working on addition and subtration (as he had been since August) most of the other children were on multiplication tables. I immediately contacted the teacher and realized that the public school allows students to work "at their own level". Well his preferred level is VERY LOW. But a month later when the students were give some form of standardized tests he scored 80% out of the "gifted" students in math. When I brought up this discrepancy to the adminstration their response was, "we sorry but we cannot accommodate him because he did not score above average on the other 2 sections." They are not the least concerned that he was lagging behind the class in substance and yet performing higher than most in ability. A similar experience in reading.

He would love to do little and the private school required much of him but the public school requires little. The biggest advantage with the public school is that homework is less than one hour whereas the private school was 2 1/2 to 3 every night - at 7 years old. Way too much.

I went to public school and was kind of unimpressed about the level I was expected to perform at. I was able to glide through without really putting in too much effort. School for me became a game of how little effort I could put in and still get good grades and please my teachers. I don't really think the habits I developed in school served me well later in life... or maybe they did, because now I can please my corporate masters without really working TOO hard... just depends on what you want, I guess.

[WordKeeper]

just depends on what you want, I guess.

LOL - ain't that the truth

Poor little fellow - school might not demand much from him but his mama does!!!

[ar81]

Originally Posted by WordKeeper

If anyone has recommendations for websites or other sources for good experiments for young children please let me know.

PACK 1
ORBITER SPACE FLIGHT SIMULATOR
Software for kids who know how to read from 0 to 999
Orbiter - A free space flight simulator
Tutorial
Virtual Spaceflight - Go Play in Space
Tutorial for parents who want to teach a first lessoN to their kids
Tutorial: Orbiter for kids. Lesson 1

PACK 2
CELESTIA
Software for kids from 3 years and up
Celestia: Download

PACK 3
Online flash game to understand gravity
Gravitee | Physics-Games Dot Net

[WordKeeper]

Thank you - awesome links ar81.

[Andyee]

Well... there is hard to argue that the whole math and science system in the west has fallen apart.

I have a lot of friends in the U.S and they say that the level of Math there is like.... well you study in the 10th grade, what we already know in the 6th. You should do something about it.

[Infinte7]

It sucks plain and simple, and to put it bluntly, I think our ancestors are rolling over their graves that we accept this pathetic thing we call education today...

Whatever happened to astrology? This goes hand in hand with math and science...

The modern "education" is teaching us and our children how to be slaves instead of being ourselves, work for a corporation instead of owning it...

I would say at least 90% of the country is financially illiterate and that is being generous....

[Andyee]

Infintite7

Well you have a point there, but let us imagine 90 percent of people would want to become financially independent. Who would then work as a policeman, doctor, fireman?

I know it sounds cruel

[Infinte7]

Originally Posted by Andyee

Infintite7

Well you have a point there, but let us imagine 90 percent of people would want to become financially independent. Who would then work as a policeman, doctor, fireman?

I know it sounds cruel

I see your point, but you don't have to be dumn to be a policeman, and most are, not meaning no offense...

Would you not want our policemen, doctors, and firemen to be more educated?

[Andyee]

Well that is the problem. Why should they work somewhere? Why should policemen risk their lives, when they could sit at home and earn more money in a month, than earlier in 2-3 years?

[Infinte7]

I understand but with a better educational system, I doubt we would even need as many policeman, there would be less poverty, therefore less crime...

People would be more educated on how to take better care of themselves instead of supposively needing a policeman...

And as far as doctors go, I would want them to know all the math, science, and even astrology as possible, in a better educational system you have people that appreciate their jobs "more" instead of just doing it for the pay...