Woman's place is at home.....

[AfteraDream]

Ok, now that I have your attention stop being mad and calling me a sexist.. I am here to share with you an article FROM A WOMAN whose point of view is similar to mine. Maybe I wasn't able to communicate it clearly earlier when talking about men and women's roles in the world today but this is one post I tend to agree:

It's posted here:
Should You Open the Door for a Woman? | The Art of Manliness

I am for equal rights, but they are already established. The problem these days is that being a man is bad, being a man is selfish and you are a pig and sexist then. Try saying that you think you have to be the provider and the woman should be nurturer of your kids and house and you are label public enemy number 1, immature or etc... It's not about making a woman to be stay at home mom, but giving her the opportunity to be it, she has her choice.

[cylon]

I'll read the rest of the article later, but I ALWAYS open the door for the woman. I even walk a step ahead so there is no awkwardness (I know they aren't sure if I will or not), I always get a thank you. I've never had a girl be offended by that, and if she were, that would be the last interaction we had.

Really... if a girl wasn't gracious about me opening the door for her, that is about as big of a red flag you could get that the girl has serious issues with men and that you are going to be having power struggles. No thanks. Chill and laid back is always best.

[Holistic Star]

I honestly don't know why so many articles about feminism boil down to who opens doors.

For me it's about equal pay, equal opportunities and equal respect in the workplace which still after all this time isn't being met.

That means that companies offer parental leave, rather than just maternity leave so that families can decide between them who takes the time off.

It means creating much more flexible working like part time that isn't penealised by pay cuts, and getting rid of long hours cultures, so that both parents, and people without children, can create jobs that fit in with their lives, families and interests.

And it means paying women the same wages for the same jobs instead of the 77% rate which hasn't improved since the 60s.

The whole, 'women must stay at home debate', tends to be a very middle class debate - tell that to those on low incomes who don't have a choice about giving up an income to maintain a roof over their families heads.

I really couldn't care less who opens a door for me. Whoever gets there first in my book. (Although I do always say thank you, I still have manners!).

Just because an article was written by a woman, doesn't mean she speaks for all women. Can we have a break of people trying to lump everyone into the same box as them?

I agree with her that we need to have the freedom to be ourselves, I just disagree with her in how to achieve that!

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

I honestly don't know why so many articles about feminism boil down to who opens doors.

For me it's about equal pay, equal opportunities and equal respect in the workplace which still after all this time isn't being met.

That means that companies offer parental leave, rather than just maternity leave so that families can decide between them who takes the time off.

It means creating much more flexible working like part time that isn't penealised by pay cuts, and getting rid of long hours cultures, so that both parents, and people without children, can create jobs that fit in with their lives, families and interests.

And it means paying women the same wages for the same jobs instead of the 77% rate which hasn't improved since the 60s.

The whole, 'women must stay at home debate', tends to be a very middle class debate - tell that to those on low incomes who don't have a choice about giving up an income to maintain a roof over their families heads.

I really couldn't care less who opens a door for me. Whoever gets there first in my book. (Although I do always say thank you, I still have manners!).

Just because an article was written by a woman, doesn't mean she speaks for all women. Can we have a break of people trying to lump everyone into the same box as them?

I agree with her that we need to have the freedom to be ourselves, I just disagree with her in how to achieve that!

Because opening a door is a simple gesture for men that shows he is a gentleman but some women tend to get offended and start calling a man a sexist and that he restricts her freedom.

The situation is not bad these days, a lot of women have their own businesses and etc and are more successful then men.

Never said that she speaks for all women just pointed out there are women who share my views..

As for those low income families - men of those families have a huge headache and shame because of that. I know it because I've seen such situations and men are unhappy because they can't be the provider for a family.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

Because opening a door is a simple gesture for men that shows he is a gentleman

And that's all you need to know. If the woman doesn't have a natural understanding of that, and appreciates that in you, you don't want her.

Luckily it's one thing to talk about this stuff, but I think you'll find in the real world women will appreciate this stuff because it's the natural man/woman dynamic at play. You can't intellectualize that away (fortunately)... so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Nature is nature and if you have an understanding of this, you will be fine.

Maybe not on the internet but face to face.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by cylon

And that's all you need to know. If the woman doesn't have a natural understanding of that, and appreciates that in you, you don't want her.

Luckily it's one thing to talk about this stuff, but I think you'll find in the real world women will appreciate this stuff because it's the natural man/woman dynamic at play. You can't intellectualize that away (fortunately)... so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Nature is nature and if you have an understanding of this, you will be fine.

Maybe not on the internet but face to face.

I agree with both of your posts but my post is not about who should open the door, but more about those bolded rows in the text

[cylon]

This woman really gets it:

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

We roll our eyes at macho posturing even though a man’s bold strength and courage make us feel safe. We complain endlessly about the audacity of the male ego, but it’s a man’s confidence that gives us faith in his wherewithal. And while it’s fashionable to sing the praises of a sensitive guy, I believe most of us prefer men who are thick-skinned and resilient (all that stuff about not being afraid to cry…please be a little afraid).

Not only did she describe the problem, but she described the solution too.

[Indiana]

Goodness that woman's life must be difficult if she gets so stressed about opening doors.

What does she do when she's walking with a female friend? I'd guess she doesn't give a second's advance thought to it, and then when they get to the door, one or the other opens it. She could try applying that logic.

To be honest, I have never in my entire life seen a woman gripe at a man for opening a door for her. I certainly never have - and I'm just as happy to open doors for others - and I have never heard any of my (progressive, feminist) friends complain that they feel belittled by it. I think the idea that the world is full of women who snarl at men who dare to open a door is a myth.

As for this:

I doubt relations between men and women have ever been more strained than they are today. Resentment, anger and conflict are prominently featured in so much of male-female interaction these days and the media compounds the problem by reinforcing this dynamic at every turn.

I can think of another time relations were that strained. How about, oh, the first half of this century when women were sick of being expected to stay at home, clean the house, cook the dinner and raise the kids? Did the media not reinforce that dynamic back then too?

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by cylon

This woman really gets it:



Not only did she describe the problem, but she described the solution too.

Yes mate, that's what I'm talking about

[cylon]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

I agree with both of your posts but my post is not about who should open the door, but more about those bolded rows in the text

I know, my overall point (and with my last post where I quoted the author of the article) is that it doesn't matter.

The women you want to be with are going to respond well to masculinity, no matter how many hundreds of protestations you get online from women saying it isn't so. The proof is in the pudding. It's a real issue, but a false one when it comes to limiting your happiness or success with women.

It's not what they SAY. It's what they RESPOND TO.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I can think of another time relations were that strained. How about, oh, the first half of this century when women were sick of being expected to stay at home, clean the house, cook the dinner and raise the kids? Did the media not reinforce that dynamic back then too?

Or maybe it's just the fact that some women are sick of being conditioned by the media to be the independent woman that should pursue her career, she has tasted that and doesn't like that? Maybe media is making men into beast while in reality most men are lost in between not knowing what to be or do?

And also consider the fact that divorce rate is going up and is very high right now. Maybe it is related with the topic?

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by cylon

It's not what they SAY. It's what they RESPOND TO.

Golden words! They say they want one thing but truly they don't really know what they want and respond to other thing completely. I used to be pissed off by this thing in women, but it's just part of them, they are walking dichotomies and we still will ALWAYS love them

[cylon]

Unfortunately she didn't mention one of the great truths: it is next to impossible to "win" an argument with a woman (in the way we think of arguments), and that goes double for online. So might as well slam your fingers in a door.

But it is a hell of a great article.

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

Golden words! They say they want one thing but truly they don't really know what they want and respond to other thing completely. I used to be pissed off by this thing in women, but it's just part of them, they are walking dichotomies and we still will ALWAYS love them

Yes.. and it takes a leap of faith because if you go by what they say or what you may read online, then you fear you're doing it wrong. We must have more faith in ourselves and what our instincts tell us to do.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by cylon

Unfortunately she didn't mention one of the great truths: it is next to impossible to "win" an argument with a woman (in the way we think of arguments), and that goes double for online. So might as well slam your fingers in a door.

But it is a hell of a great article.

I read that when you argue with a woman and lose, yeah you lose, but when you argue and WIN then you really LOOSE! I'm still trying to understand it fully, but it resonated with me somehow

[cylon]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

I read that when you argue with a woman and lose, yeah you lose, but when you argue and WIN then you really LOOSE! I'm still trying to understand it fully, but it resonated with me somehow

It's true. It doesn't mean to not express your opinion or be strong with your views, but you have to get over the desire to want to convince others of something. Not the easiest thing to do. I'll let you know if I make it.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by cylon

It's true. It doesn't mean to not express your opinion or be strong with your views, but you have to get over the desire to want to convince others of something. Not the easiest thing to do. I'll let you know if I make it.

Ok, lemme know. I'll be the first one though to make it :P

[Angela]

Wait a sec. If a woman's place is at home, what the hell is she doing going through doors?

p.s.. my experience is that almost without exception, the men around me behave like cylon, arranging himself so that he can open the door for me (or any other woman) without there being any awkwardness. It's like a dance, and it's pleasurable to allow a man to open the door for me, and it's also pleasurable to open the door for him, when it's time to do that. I'm inclined to agree with Indiana that "the idea that the world is full of women who snarl at men who dare to open a door is a myth." And if there is some underground rabid feminist matrix of women who do that, why waste any time feeling bad about it, when you can just either find another door to open, or stop opening doors for women. There are plenty of women everywhere who are pleased for you to open the door, and don't give a rat's ass if you don't.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

Ok, lemme know. I'll be the first one though to make it :P

Good luck. Be an example for me.

[Indiana]

You know, divorce is just such a huge topic that it really needs its own thread. I will consider starting one later on whether the type of divorce we have today is a good, bad or neutral thing.

In regard to what appears to be your point.

It is a good thing if women can choose to follow their own desires for their lives, whether that be to stay at home and raise children, or to choose to have a career. This, in fact, was the central goal of feminism - the establishment of choice for women.

As a woman I have never felt that I have been forced to suppress maternal urges or desire for partnership in favour of having a career. I am surrounded by women who, likewise, have happily developed all three things, or a combination of one or more in their lives.

I can understand that the changes in women's responses to men wrought by women being empowered to make their own choices and support their own lives may be discomfiting to some men. But that is a part of social evolution, and balance will be achieved by responding to each other as individuals, not by making generalisations about what the opposite sex should or shouldn't do, should or shouldn't want, or (most alarmingly) "wants, even if they don't know they want it". That last declaration is borderline fascist to me.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Indiana

(most alarmingly) "wants, even if they don't know they want it". That last declaration is borderline fascist to me.

Who said that? I certainly hope you weren't referring to my point that it's better to go by what women respond to, and not what they say. Please don't accuse me of saying stuff I never said.

We roll our eyes at macho posturing even though a man’s bold strength and courage make us feel safe. We complain endlessly about the audacity of the male ego, but it’s a man’s confidence that gives us faith in his wherewithal. And while it’s fashionable to sing the praises of a sensitive guy, I believe most of us prefer men who are thick-skinned and resilient (all that stuff about not being afraid to cry…please be a little afraid).

This is what I was getting at. The woman is talking about the discrepancy between what is said, and what is responded too. Perhaps you mistakenly read more into my point than I intended. Now you know the deal.

[Indiana]

No Cylon, it was in reference to AfteraDream's statement:

They say they want one thing but truly they don't really know what they want and respond to other thing completely.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Indiana

No Cylon, it was in reference to AfteraDream's statement:

Understood. He was paraphrasing my point, which was paraphrasing the point of the author, which I quoted above.

I highly, highly doubt AfterADream was suggesting what you're suggesting he was suggesting. You may want to think a bit on that.

[Indiana]

As for that quote... she's creating false dichotomies, so it's essentially meaningless.

Macho posturing is not related to strength and courage. (in fact, it's the opposite)
Ego is not related to confidence (also an opposite)
Being sensitive does not mean you are thin-skinned or weak.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by cylon

Understood. He was paraphrasing my point, which was paraphrasing the point of the author, which I quoted above.

I highly, highly doubt AfterADream was suggesting what you're suggesting he was suggesting. You may want to think a bit on that.

I'll look up the thread later, but he has certainly said elsewhere that women do not really know what is good for them. So I don't think I'm too far off-base.

Edited to add quotes from AfteraDream

She can have her own vision but women are not born for this (emotionally healthy woman prefers family and kinds over anything). She doesn't want to be an adventure, SHE WANTS TO BE TAKEN on an adventure.

Women these days are afraid to stay at home and not be pursuing a career because Cosmo said it's cooler to be a business woman then a mother.

As you can see, he doesn't think women really know what they want, or are emotionally unhealthy if they claim to want something other than what he thinks they should, or alternatively, make life decisions based on what magazines (apparently) tell them to do.

So if I seem to be of the opinion that AfteraDream doesn't have much respect for women's ability to make and voice their own choices, it's because that's what he suggests.

[Angela]

Indiana, speaking of myths, do you know any women who are somehow being prevented from being stay-at-home moms, by anything other than economic necessity or limiting beliefs of their own? Have you ever encountered an external power that FORCES women to be stopped or ashamed or embarrassed about choosing that life for herself?

(I addressed that to Indiana, because Indiana had mentioned myths, but really, has ANYONE been present to such a power that FORCES women not to choose being a stay-at-home mom?)

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Angela

Indiana, speaking of myths, do you know any women who are somehow being prevented from being stay-at-home moms, by anything other than economic necessity or limiting beliefs of their own? Have you ever encountered an external power that FORCES women to be stopped or ashamed or embarrassed about choosing that life for herself?

(I addressed that to Indiana, because Indiana had mentioned myths, but really, has ANYONE been present to such a power that FORCES women not to choose being a stay-at-home mom?)

Can't think of anything! I have to admit, I know only a very few women who have chosen that route directly out of school/university - my cousin-in-law is one, a good school friend another - but a few of my friends pursued careers for several years and are now taking a break to raise children (others are combining that with careers and a couple gave birth and are now the primary earner for the family, while their husbands stay at home). All these decisions are celebrated and supported by my peer group.

I do think that there is substantial pressure in lower-to-middle income brackets for women to go back to work (often menial) when they might prefer to stay home and continue looking after the children, because the real value of the dollar has become so desperately eroded. These days, a double income can often buy less in real terms (especially property) than a single income did 40 years ago.

I'm no economist, but I suspect this can be less blamed on feminism and women choosing to have careers than on out-of-control corporate profiteering and the massively overinflated credit system that we are now, not very surprisingly, seeing collapse.

[Athena Arianna]

Okay.

(Big sigh).

It seems to me, in my almost 43 years of living in the east coat of the USA, with the last 20 or so of those including providing services that produced value to the effect that, I am doing quite well as a single woman, in spite of having started out with virtually nothing, and never having been married, via my employers highly valueing my talents & services, thank you very much (grin). Anyway...

That said, I haven't had any issue with this door opening thing, you know? At least not in my circle anyway (mostly the well educated, succesful by any standard, stable, effective people I work with) - as I've found it is expected that the first person to the door opens it.

Yup, shocker ain't it?

Pretty much 50/50. Okay, sometimes, we make a bit of drama over it if we arrive at said door at the same time, for fun -all parties knowing the archaic "door opening is done by men" thing, and having a lighthearted chuckle over it, it's easy to be light hearted over this joke, like the one about women wearing "pants" (another GASP!!!!)

Yep, it (the whole door opening thing) has become a pretty trivial thing, at least, in my own circle (again, well educated, financially & emotionally stable members of both sexes).

So, to have you bring something like that up as a big "GASP - can you believe it???? - some women are ACTUALLY holding their own doors open, OMG!!!!" is at first comical,

but next, makes me wonder if I had the folks to frequent this forum pegged wrong. I thought of them as pretty intelligent, well meaning people, interested in improving themselves. But now I'm having my doubts...

Because, well, I realize it is ancient symbolic, this opening door thing, at lots of other fondly remember ancient ideas, such as women need to wear skirts. Those I associate with realize it too.

I mean, heck, we all seem to realize the act of door opening, when done by a "gentleman" for a "lady" is a lightly humorous reference to chivalry, which seems cool until you get back to it referring to the age whereby men took "care" of their "gentler" sex, along with rescuing her from being whisked away to castle dungeons, whereupon the lordy captured "has" her and "ruins" her and thus her family gives her up to him, avoiding the more dreadful fate of her having been "had" and not married, you konw....and such dreadful things, (Shudder).

So, are you all out of my league, after all? As in, you don't get that a woman doesn't have to get married to be successful?

It saddens me to even suspect this. But honestly, let me know if I'm just wasting my time here.

My time is pretty valuable at this point, in the prime of my career, people pay a pretty high $ per an hour of my time. And sing my praises. I thought this site was a worthy educational forum full of ideas from like minded individuals.

But with threads like this, sheesh, why don't you boys just grab an ole six pack and go down the the river, drink it, and ♥♥♥♥♥ about those "durn women" making it impossible to earn enough to capture one of 'em for yer own.

(Rolling eyes)
Please any more logical adults pipe in here,

lest I need to change my opinion of the whole Steve Pavlina forum, and stop referring the real smart people here!

'Thena

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Athena Arianna

My time is pretty valuable at this point, in the prime of my career, people pay a pretty high $ per an hour of my time. And sing my praises. I thought this site was a worthy educational forum full of ideas from like minded individuals.

Yeah, you're probably in the wrong place. Stop slumming.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

I am here to share with you an article FROM A WOMAN

Interesting, that this article "FROM A WOMAN" says at the bottom "Written by Brett & Kate McKay".

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Interesting, that this article "FROM A WOMAN" says at the bottom "Written by Brett & Kate McKay".

Actually, Brett and Kate McKay run the website that's hosting the article. The actual article is written by Angela Bailey.