Woman's place is at home.....

[cacheborn]

Maybe I am still sleepy or maybe I just do not have enough neurons. But I did not get the point.
As for the big Q of opening doors, it's partly social. I have never seen a woman get offended by it. And the younger generation does not care for it.
And linking this to divorce is beyond me.

the best solution : Doors which open and close automatically. The good ol' Start Trek!

[Trezker]

I don't really open doors for anyone. I open a door so me and whoever is nearby can get through. I don't care which order we get through or how many has to hold the door doing it.

There not really any difference if I'm with a woman, man, dwarf of alien. Opening a door is just opening a door, whoever is best positioned to open it...

To quote the Matrix: "I can only show you the door, you have to walk through it."
s/show/open/ optional

The big problem with equalizing the business world is that the gender roles are socially trained from generations of inequality. Girls are held back by their upbringing and beliefs. Their parents and grandparents, the whole extended family radiates old values. Even if companies are open to hiring women and men equally, I think the bigger problem is how we raise our kids. The whole population needs to change and that can take many generations to achieve.

The companies are willing to hire more women now, the door is open. But there aren't enough women with the will to walk through it.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Athena Arianna

Okay.

(Big sigh).

It seems to me, in my almost 43 years of living in the east coat of the USA, with the last 20 or so of those including providing services that produced value to the effect that

but are you happy?

43, single, pant-suit, rich, powerful, prestigious...

But was it really worth it? Are you really happy being married to your career?

Your genuine experience can be valuable to the younger folk who want to know which way to go. Most people don't really care about money and prestige, they want the slow-building joy that comes from a happy harmonious family.

What does it feel like to know you'll never have children?

[cacheborn]

but are you happy?

43, single, pant-suit, rich, powerful, prestigious...

But was it really worth it? Are you really happy being married to your career?

Your genuine experience can be valuable to the younger folk who want to know which way to go. Most people don't really care about money and prestige, they want the slow-building joy that comes from a happy harmonious family.

What does it feel like to know you'll never have children?

I am all for intellectual discussions, but I don't think that's something you want to ask someone. Okay, you may justify it by saying that it can be valuable to young people and all that. You are being insensitive to the other person, about whom you know nothing.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by yossarian

What does it feel like to know you'll never have children?

Like there were so many great men to choose from!

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

I am all for intellectual discussions, but I don't think that's something you want to ask someone. Okay, you may justify it by saying that it can be valuable to young people and all that. You are being insensitive to the other person, about whom you know nothing.

This isn't some intellectual topic.

This isn't Obama vs. McCain, this is people lives here.

She offered herself as an example of a successful feminist. I am a young person who has been told by society that feminism is a good thing. I want to know the truth. Give it to me straight.

All you feminists have lived this creed for lifetimes now and now it is time to pass on your wisdom. Was it worth it?

Lives hang in the balance.

[cacheborn]

This isn't some intellectual topic.

This isn't Obama vs. McCain, this is people lives here.

She offered herself as an example of a successful feminist. I am a young person who has been told by society that feminism is a good thing. I want to know the truth. Give it to me straight.

All you feminists have lived this creed for lifetimes now and now it is time to pass on your wisdom. Was it worth it?

Lives hang in the balance.

If this is not an intellectual discussion, then Paris is not a city. The whole thing starts from women getting upset from opening doors, and almost no one has seen such a woman. Then linking this to divorce. Give me a break!
And whose lives are we talking about? Do you think people make lifelong decisions just based one discussion?

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

The whole thing starts from women getting upset from opening doors, and almost no one has seen such a woman. Then linking this to divorce. Give me a break!
And whose lives are we talking about? Do you think people make lifelong decisions just based one discussion?

This isn't about opening doors, that's just a convenient metaphor for what's really being discussed: Gender roles.

Family is the #1 determinant of happiness. Feminism seems to be poison for families. This is not some "small deal" -- this is the absolute most important issue in the world.

... one discussion adds up into two adds up into ten adds up into thousands... and eventually all of those data points becomes a cultural tradition which is passed down that preserves humanity's best practices.

So you'll have to forgive me for asking the tough questions. It's time for the "me" generation to stop worrying about themselves and start passing down the things they have learned - namely - Was it worth it?

[Kazeko]

Originally Posted by yossarian

but are you happy?
43, single, pant-suit, rich, powerful, prestigious...
But was it really worth it?

Heavens, yes! As Brian Tracy says "More is always better than less".
Imagine it. Mature (43). Single (free). Pant-suit (expensive, beautiful one). Rich ($$$!) Powerful (can get what she wants). Prestigious ("Vain glory be our wicked guide" (c) Edguy).

A life of my dreams Alas, I'm just a man... (And I don't walk on water (c) Ozzy Osbourne)

Are you really happy being married to your career?
......
What does it feel like to know you'll never have children?
......
Most people don't really care about money and prestige, they want the slow-building joy that comes from a happy harmonious family.

"People are morons" (c) Groundhog Day movie
Seriously though, people are really really different. And their points of view are different. Some people are happy following their purpose, mission or calling through their career. Some don't like children (or at least are happy without them). Some do care about money.

I don't see the point in these power wars.

Yes, there are differences between genders and races. It's not wise to deny them. There are some general natural talents. My personal opinions (stereotypes) include those:
- women are gentle, indirect, flexible.
- men are rough and straightforward.
- the darker the skin and hair through the race, the more emotional and fast people of that race are. The opposite is true too.
- exception: Asian people are very mysterious, wise and industrious

We can conclude, that some roles and professions are better suitable for each gender and each race. But there's no law saying that if you have some talent - you must use it. The problem arises when some people try to make others follow such a "law".

I'm pro diversity and constant changing of the roles. It's much more fun!

People, stop those gender wars!

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Most people don't really care about money and prestige, they want the slow-building joy that comes from a happy harmonious family.

You cannot know what "most people" care about or desire in their heart. You can only speak for yourself. Attributing your own desires to others is called generalization and projection.

What does it feel like to know you'll never have children?

I'm not Athena, but I don't want to have children. I don't want to get married either. I feel happy and harmonious and perfectly fine. It feels great to know that I will never have children. Thank you.


Edit: (I don't care about money and prestige either, btw. )

[yossarian]

Rose - thanks for your opinion.

I'm especially curious to hear from older women though, who have passed childbearing age. They are the ones who are really in the position to know. They are the ones we need to be asking. Not men like Kazeko, and not young women like you Rose. And not me either, I ask because I'm unsure.

It's an important question and only age 40+ women are qualified to answer.

This is honestly the most important and impactful social issue that exists... there is nothing that has a bigger effect on people's lives - wives, husbands, children, generations, social institutions, everything. Everything. Everything depends on the question:

Is feminism worth it?

The experiment was started about 50 years ago, and now it's time to start bringing in some results. Hopefully sooner rather than later, so the next generations can benefit, those of us who will listen anyway.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

...
The problem these days is that being a man is bad, being a man is selfish and you are a pig and sexist then. Try saying that you think you have to be the provider and the woman should be nurturer of your kids and house and you are label public enemy number 1, immature or etc...

...

How much nonsense can you put in one paragraph

Being a man is pretty good, I find. I don't share your point of view on that.

Selfish? Yes I get called that from time to time. Usually by people (both sexes) who want me to do something I don't want. I usually reply: yes, I'm selfish, now what?

In the other thread I read that you were challenged for putting your views over all women, more than just stating: I, AfterADream, need a woman who supports my vision. The latter people can agree or not agree with, who cares? It's your vision.

In my vision I'm not the sole provider for my family, nor would I want my partner to be a 'at home mum'. Doesn't make me a bad man. Maybe you disagree with that. I'd certainly like to discuss it with you and others, but won't lose any sleep over it.

[Kazeko]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

It feels great to know that I will never have children. Thank you.
Edit: (I don't care about money and prestige either, btw. )

I do care about children, money and prestige. Luckily, I'm socially able to wear a pant-suit.

Btw: In Russia it is considered very polite to open door and to let your companion pass. No matter what the genders are. It's very popular manner among aged men. I personally usually "serve as a doorman" for people older than me. And yes, for beautiful girls

[Kazeko]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Everything. Everything depends on the question:

Is feminism worth it?

The experiment was started about 50 years ago, and now it's time to start bringing in some results. Hopefully sooner rather than later, so the next generations can benefit, those of us who will listen anyway.

Yossarian,

Again, I don't see the point. There're no general statistics. I'm sure the results are very individual and diverse. Some women will regret, for sure. Some women won't. Some will answer "heavens, yes! it is worth it!" (see my post above, although I'm not qualified ). Some will answer "I was wrong, but (hopefully) I value my experience").

[Rose of Cairo]

Haha!

In France it is also polite to open the door for someone else, no matter what genders are. I usually open the door for everybody, men and women. It makes me happy! I'm also happy when others open the door for me, and they often do, both genders.

I haven't noticed if men open the door for me more or less than women. But I've never seen any woman getting upset for having a door opened for her by a man (or by anybody else).

Such a detail.

[Holistic Star]

Originally Posted by Indiana

As for that quote... she's creating false dichotomies, so it's essentially meaningless.

Macho posturing is not related to strength and courage. (in fact, it's the opposite)
Ego is not related to confidence (also an opposite)
Being sensitive does not mean you are thin-skinned or weak.

I think this is spot on. Well explained Indiana.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Kazeko

Yossarian,

Again, I don't see the point. There're no general statistics.

Actually, there are general statistics.

The results aren't good.

When women started going to work, the number of mothers dropped, the number of children being born plummeted, depression, suicide, delinquency, promiscuity, and many other negative outcomes went up.

In 2007, 40% of "highly educated" women 35+ did not have children, compared to 20% in 1997. Those women who do have children have them later and have fewer. Depression among women, during this same period, has increased.

Ironically, the wealth of families when adjusted for cost of living has actually gone down. So there was no actual money gain by putting women to work... it just made everyone's hourly rate go down.

It's an uncomfortable question but it's one that must be asked for the sake of humanity...

[Kazeko]

Yossarian, now I got your point of view.

What should we say then? Oh yes, feminism is bad. Just look at all those facts. Shame on all those women, who don't want children. And let's also declare homosexual marriages and homosexuality as illegal, because it's also very bad for demographic situation. And let's acknowledge that Black people have more endurance and vitality - the agriculture needs some cheap labor resources. One big problem - who'll be the Ruler of our world? The one who has more force?

On the contrary, in China it is forbidden to have many children. And oral sex is forbidden there too.

I'm advocating personal choice, personal freedom and personal responsibility here. I strongly believe, that every person has rights to decide for herself.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by yossarian

...
It's an uncomfortable question but it's one that must be asked for the sake of humanity...

It's more uncomfortable to me when people try to shove their opinions down my throat.

I don't see this question "must" be asked, and certainly not for the sake of humanity. You are not humanity, and can only speak for yourself. It seems to me you're trying to solve problems for many people using your own opinions. Good luck with that.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Athena Arianna

Okay.

Please any more logical adults pipe in here,

lest I need to change my opinion of the whole Steve Pavlina forum, and stop referring the real smart people here!

'Thena

Don´t take what 2 or 3 people say here to be the truth about the entire forum.

The reason that I have not responded for example, although I disagree with the whole "women should do this or that" is because somebody else has already pointed it out before. I don´t see the point of repeating what other people just said..

My own opinion about this: Every person (man, woman, alian) should be allowed to do however they want.
Marriage, no marriage, career, no career, 1 child, 2 children, a whole soccerteam, all 1 after the other, all mixed together, however you want it to be.

As long as you are happy and living your life as you want to... enjoy!

Everybody who says you should do something, don´t listen to them. You should do nothing if you don´t want to!

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I'll look up the thread later, but he has certainly said elsewhere that women do not really know what is good for them. So I don't think I'm too far off-base.

Edited to add quotes from AfteraDream


As you can see, he doesn't think women really know what they want, or are emotionally unhealthy if they claim to want something other than what he thinks they should, or alternatively, make life decisions based on what magazines (apparently) tell them to do.

So if I seem to be of the opinion that AfteraDream doesn't have much respect for women's ability to make and voice their own choices, it's because that's what he suggests.

I love and respect women. I find independent ones attractive more than those who are clingy but you still don't get it. My point of view is the same as author's. That women are dichotomies, that what they say is not what they respond to.. Also I don't know if you have a husband or boyfriend but don't ever want to just surrender to him and let him take charge of things? Like make the decision about anything? Not because you are weak or whatever, but because you want to feel that he is strong and CAPABLE of taking care of you.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Angela

Indiana, speaking of myths, do you know any women who are somehow being prevented from being stay-at-home moms, by anything other than economic necessity or limiting beliefs of their own? Have you ever encountered an external power that FORCES women to be stopped or ashamed or embarrassed about choosing that life for herself?

(I addressed that to Indiana, because Indiana had mentioned myths, but really, has ANYONE been present to such a power that FORCES women not to choose being a stay-at-home mom?)

My wife left the corporate world after several years to be a home-maker. She has commented to me several times that some people seem to really look down on her decision. She gets direct comments about how she is wasting her life, or how she is making a big mistake by putting herself in a situation where she has to rely on a man for financial support. She feels that there are other more subtle comments too, such as those that suggest a woman making the choices she is made is working to undo years of progress of the feminist movement.

Ultimately, however, no one has forced her to go back to being employed outside of the home. Regardless of what other people think of her, or how they try to make her feel about the situation the decision lies with her. I can very easily see, however, where a lesser woman could be persuaded by those external forces to give up her dream of being a home-maker. My wife is strong, intelligent, and fiercely independent, yet I do see that she allows others opinions and words to sometimes get to her. I may be wrong, but I suspect there are less strong, intelligent, independent women out there who are unable to overcome those external forces and give in to the idea that they must work outside the home. It is true that those women are not being forced into that decision, they make it for themselves, but it is sad that some members of society would even try to push them away from living their life the way they desire.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

How much nonsense can you put in one paragraph

Being a man is pretty good, I find. I don't share your point of view on that.

Selfish? Yes I get called that from time to time. Usually by people (both sexes) who want me to do something I don't want. I usually reply: yes, I'm selfish, now what?

In the other thread I read that you were challenged for putting your views over all women, more than just stating: I, AfterADream, need a woman who supports my vision. The latter people can agree or not agree with, who cares? It's your vision.

In my vision I'm not the sole provider for my family, nor would I want my partner to be a 'at home mum'. Doesn't make me a bad man. Maybe you disagree with that. I'd certainly like to discuss it with you and others, but won't lose any sleep over it.

Well that's not nonsense to me. I've felt like that when I was a boy or a teen and when I thought that feminism ideas are perfect.. But they are not! Yes the intentions were good and some results are great! Women are free to do what they want. It's done.

But there is another side of the coin... Men lost their way. I was actually thinking in the past that women don't need men. Feminism is erasing the roles of gender and we need them I needed it as a young boy and others need it. No wonder women say there is not a lot of Men to choose from. It was said here earlier.A woman can say she is happy being not married and not having kids... but this might be just false mask. Maybe she is lying to herself, maybe she isn't. I say stop idealizing feminism and look at the problem for men these days, they need to man up and get in touch with masculinity. That's why roles need to be defined. BUT if they are defined this doesn't mean everyone should hold onto them. There is a choice always...

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

It's more uncomfortable to me when people try to shove their opinions down my throat.

I don't see this question "must" be asked, and certainly not for the sake of humanity. You are not humanity, and can only speak for yourself. It seems to me you're trying to solve problems for many people using your own opinions. Good luck with that.

It is an important question when divorce rates a growing and Europe is dying off slowly..

Isn't Steve Pavlina and every other self-improvement guru actually doing it themselves? They give their opinion on how you should improve and you listen.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

...
Men lost their way.
...

Speak for yourself, please. I didn't lose my way. Nor did many men I know.

...
A woman can say she is happy being not married and not having kids... but this might be just false mask. Maybe she is lying to herself, maybe she isn't.

Who cares? That is only relevant for the woman herself, plus her loved ones. Why would you care about that?

...
There is a choice always...

At last, we agree .

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

It is an important question when divorce rates a growing and Europe is dying off slowly..

So what?

Isn't Steve Pavlina and every other self-improvement guru actually doing it themselves? They give their opinion on how you should improve and you listen.

'Should' is not the word here. They open possibilities for us to explore. As soon as a guru says: 'you should' that's a red flag signal to me.

Mind, it may be someone is telling me 'you should' with the intention of saying 'hey, this may be worthwhile for you!' That's what Steve is doing for me. Again, it's all about the intention of the spoken or written words, not the words themselves.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Speak for yourself, please. I didn't lose my way. Nor did many men I know.

I'm saying you are but I know there are millions of men that are lost. And are all the men you know very successful... or just average? Maybe you are still not awake to some things? No offense... just think about it...

If this wasn't true than Pick up community wouldn't have started. Not saying it's good to manipulate women into dating and sex. But there are some teachers who took it to other level that is about teaching men how to better themselves.

And one more thing about roles. We analyze successful people when we want to be successful and there are patterns we find about successful people. But when you start looking for patterns that masculine men or feminine women have then it's sexism. This is why roles are needed. Or let's ot call them roles, but ideals.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

I'm saying you are but I know there are millions of men that are lost. And are all the men you know very successful... or just average? Maybe you are still not awake to some things? No offense... just think about it...

You don't offend me that quickly . If I'm not awake (who decides that, by the way?) it's because, well, simply I'm not awake.

I think we have different points of view here. I see happy men, and unhappy men. Happy women, and unhappy women. I wouldn't say the cause is 'feminism gone too far' or 'we have lost our sex specific qualities' (what are they, by the way?). I believe we are all bigger than our sex specific qualities.

We live in an age where we have much more freedom than 100, 500 or 10000 years ago. Freedom implies that we are free to choose, and with freedom comes uncertainty too. I think that many people would prefer not to choose but rather have less choice and more certainty, hence their unhappiness.

In times gone by roles were defined much stricter. That gave stability but also unhappiness. E.g. if you were homosexual but couldn't show it, let alone find a partner to live with together.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

You don't offend me that quickly . If I'm not awake (who decides that, by the way?) it's because, well, simply I'm not awake.

I think we have different points of view here. I see happy men, and unhappy men. Happy women, and unhappy women. I wouldn't say the cause is 'feminism gone too far' or 'we have lost our sex specific qualities' (what are they, by the way?). I believe we are all bigger than our sex specific qualities.

We live in an age where we have much more freedom than 100, 500 or 10000 years ago. Freedom implies that we are free to choose, and with freedom comes uncertainty too. I think that many people would prefer not to choose but rather have less choice and more certainty, hence their unhappiness.

In times gone by roles were defined much stricter. That gave stability but also unhappiness. E.g. if you were homosexual but couldn't show it, let alone find a partner to live with together.

Well, let's not get into homosexualism because I know nothing about their life style.

The paradox of freedom is that sometimes there are too much of options to choose from. And some people get unhappy because they can't make a decision on what to choose. That's why procrastination is such a big problem for a lot of people.

And our sex specific qualities were created by nature for a reason (I think) so why defy them, if there were no problems with it, then why do you think Steve wrote "How to be a Man" post? If men weren't lost a little than that post wouldn't be one of the most read ones. Roles aren't bad, old ones needed some adjustment but allowing men to be soft and women become rough (basically making genders the same) is bad. It's the biggest problem with me. Don't make genders the same. Yes both a man and a woman can take responsibility for providing for family, but it doesn't mean they both should. I can play the guitar too, but this doesn't mean I will start a band soon and it will be the best in the world.

Mate, I don't want to tell you what to do, I just want to point out some things that in my opinion need to be addressed and changed. For the sake of whole world not for me..

[Andrew Gubb]

I ask my guides for clarity on this issue.

Here's my random thoughts.

Structure is good, sometimes. Social structures, conventions, can be good. There IS such a thing as too much freedom. I have often hated that idea, but I think it has its place.

There are bad structures. I also think there are too many structures nowadays, and they need to fall apart. Structures need to be challenged, the good ones standing up to the test, the bad ones disintegrating.

Sexuality involves a sort of role-playing. If it's enforced, this becomes oppressive. But if you do it in freedom and humour, it can be enjoyable and give zest to life.

Not all men are masculine, and not all women are feminine, and not everyone plays the same pole all of the time. In fact I don't think anyone can play one pole exclusively their whole lives, except ragingly insecure homophobic biker bullies, perhaps. I'm masculine, but I have experienced femininity.

People in general have been cheated into working more hours for less pay. Is it any wonder that women would be cheated into working more too? Regardless of whether the old system was fair, the oppressors of society are quite happy now that women work as much as men and they get to pay the whole family of two earners less overall in spending value than they once paid men. Just observing there.