The Tax protest - April 15

[Herbivore]

...Protesting the governments' "handling" of the economic crisis.

A few thoughts...

1. I was at a protest today in Citrus Heights, CA. Police were chasing down drivers who were honking in support.
These people are already being robbed. Now they have to pay a fine. I hope they were pissed!
A bully will continue as long as he can. You decide the state of your life. You can't rely on Government.

2. A protest is a good start. But for the gov to change, millions of citizens need to actually cause a big disturbance. How about getting their attention where it hurts - $$$. What if millions did what they believe is right and not pay their taxes....and filled up the courts in lawsuits....then the protests start for the non payers being jailed...and so on. It won't be any better in our slave future anyway.

3. Alot of people like the Regan saying "Government is the problem". Repubs are using it now that a dem is pres, But Government was the problem 1 year ago, 3 years ago, 10, 20 , 30 years ago. We NEED to stop blaming half the gov. No matter what party, taxes stay about the same. I think they perpetuate partisan thinking to keep people divided. They're now conquering.

[Lil Chris]

I saw a quick blurb on the news a few days ago something about a sugar tax (on soda pop). There wasn't much to it. I said to myself WTF?

Personally, I've always had issues with the seat belt law. Mandatory use of a safety device, wear it or we'll extort money from you. They say, we do it "because we care about your safety" yeah right...

Let's not even get started on:

Accounts Receivable Tax
Automobile Registration Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
CDL License Tax
Dog License Tax
Estate Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges (Tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (Tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Tax
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Parking Meters
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Taxes
Road Usage Tax (Truckers)
Sales Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Toll Booth Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and non-Recurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Tax
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Water-craft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents/gallon)
Federal Income Tax

Next there will be a tax for thinking up ways to tax you tax...

[Manomanman]

The people don't wield any real political power:

1. The masses don't control the major media.
2. Votes don't really mean anything when the media gives you a binary choice between two hand-selected parties.
3. Citizens have the RIGHT to veto bad laws via jury nullification - but about 0.001% of the population even knows what that term means, and therefore, the cornerstone (i.e. most powerful "vote") of a law-based Republic no longer exists.

The Republic has been long dead, my friend, and it's not coming back any time soon.

[Brutha]

1. The masses don't control the major media.

Actually, if the masses wouldn't watch/read major media the major media would just die.

[Lauxa]

I'm a bit jealous because Ron Paul was at the tea party in my parents area. Would have been nice to see him again.

Brutha, I have stopped watching/reading the major media, and it still hasn't died. What am I doing wrong?

I'm a bit annoyed that FOX was the big promoter of the tea parties. Can't stand that faux news channel...

[Herbivore]

4. Calls to Impeach Obama. - We just had an election. People should've voted for a 3rd party like I did. I first learned there were 3rd partys from mainstream media. Others are aware of them too. So why do people stick with this 2 party duopoly? Because "They" have it set up that way. The party's supposedly oppose the other. So you're voting against a party by voting for the other. But no matter which one wins, the same old gov is in power.

They say, we do it "because we care about your safety" yeah right...

Well....they don't want to lose any tax-payers. But a good reason is: when people are injured, aren't they cared for with tax payer money? Not many people can afford the crazy cost of medical care. I don't believe we should pay for emergincy care; at least when its not our fault.

[liamona]

I've been reading a lot about these Tea Parties lately.

Originally Posted by Herbivore

3. Alot of people like the Regan saying "Government is the problem". Repubs are using it now that a dem is pres, But Government was the problem 1 year ago, 3 years ago, 10, 20 , 30 years ago.

Yeah, no kidding, and where were these outraged protesters when their goon Bush was in office?

Salon.com ran an article on this called, "On 9/11, I think they hit the wrong building." At the end it said that Obama "paid $855,323 in federal income tax last year on income of $2,656,902 (mostly from book sales). If the tea business was really the start of a grass-roots tax revolt movement, maybe Obama should have gone out and joined the party." LOL.

We NEED to stop blaming half the gov. No matter what party, taxes stay about the same. I think they perpetuate partisan thinking to keep people divided. They're now conquering.

That's right. Although I don't agree with everything she says, Devvy Kidd wrote a good article about this ("LOTS OF TEA PARTIES - AND THEN?"):

"Do you know what the herding technique is? Do you know what 'controlled opposition' means?"

"Because this uproar by we the people is growing exponentially, something must be done to herd the people in the right direction to control opposition to the master plan of one world government and the final destruction of our constitutional republic. Along come some good, decent Americans who decide to make their voices heard by having a tea party. This is nothing new. The Committees of Safety, of which I am a board member, has held them in the past; see here. However, now that the level of raw anger has been ratcheted up considerably, a "new" face of reason on a "fair and balanced" television network picks up the anger factor and begins to exploit these millions of desperate Americans.

Remember how Glenn Beck treated Ron Paul during the primary season? Remember how Glenn Beck poked fun of Ron Paul supporters and insinuated we were all a bunch of crazies? Dr. Paul, Dr. Edwin Vieira, Peter Schiff and a hundred others have been trying for decades to explain the core cancer (our debauched currency and corrupted monetary system) only to be ignored or laughed at by useful tools like Glenn Beck."

[Dan.Linehan]

The tea party events are just an excuse for people to channel their feelings of powerlessness.

America has some of the lowest taxes in the world already, and Obama is lowering them even more for 95% of the population.


Also, teabagging. Heh.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Also, teabagging. Heh.

I've been waiting for someone to say that!

[Brutha]

Brutha, I have stopped watching/reading the major media, and it still hasn't died. What am I doing wrong?

It turns out, you aren't "the masses".
In a democracy is supposed to need more than one person to archive something.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Actually, if the masses wouldn't watch/read major media the major media would just die.

Great point.

[Herbivore]

America has some of the lowest taxes in the world already

Really? But are they low?

This reminds me of my long-standing question: So where's the money??

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Herbivore

Really? But are they low?

This reminds me of my long-standing question: So where's the money??

I don't get it.. ?

[Herbivore]

If taxes are low enough, why don't people have any $$(most are in debt). And the gov doesn't have $$ - also in debt. So where's the money?

Update - The ticketing in CA was discussed on local talk radio. Someone said - If enough people challenge their tickets, they might get waived.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by Herbivore

If taxes are low enough, why don't people have any $$(most are in debt). And the gov doesn't have $$ - also in debt. So where's the money?

Update - The ticketing in CA was discussed on local talk radio. Someone said - If enough people challenge their tickets, they might get waived.

People are spending more than they earn and borrowing to cover the difference. The government is spending more than it collects and borrowing to cover the difference.

I tend to think that people who engage in this type of behavior will continue to do so regardless of how much or how little they pay in taxes.

[Angela Leeds]

I think the most insane aspect of the financial & taxation system in the US is how the Federal Reserve loans the US its own money, with interest, obligating tax-payers to ceaselessly pay back the loan...plus the interest. The system is constructed at its very foundation in such a way as to never, ever allow the people to get ahead or even achieve a balanced economy. It is a setup for failure from the outset.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Herbivore

If taxes are low enough, why don't people have any $$(most are in debt). And the gov doesn't have $$ - also in debt. So where's the money?

Because both groups have spent more than they've earned..

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Angela Leeds

I think the most insane aspect of the financial & taxation system in the US is how the Federal Reserve loans the US its own money, with interest, obligating tax-payers to ceaselessly pay back the loan...plus the interest. The system is constructed at its very foundation in such a way as to never, ever allow the people to get ahead or even achieve a balanced economy. It is a setup for failure from the outset.

That coupled with all the taxes Lil Chris mentioned we have to pay, it's a wonder we have as much money as we do.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by liamona

That coupled with all the taxes Lil Chris mentioned we have to pay, it's a wonder we have as much money as we do.

True, true. And to think that that money is primarily generated on credit... it's not "real" money. With money being fabricated thus out of thin air, it makes it very easy to manipulate economies by the powers-that-be.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Angela Leeds

...
The system is constructed at its very foundation in such a way as to never, ever allow the people to get ahead or even achieve a balanced economy. It is a setup for failure from the outset.

??? If a citizen lives within his means (not spend more than he has) he will do fine. No matter the faulty (if that, I don't know) system.

[Dan.Linehan]

If everyone who took out a 30-year note in 1979 hadn't cashed out their equity they would all have their homes paid off by now.

-- Average cost of new house in 1979: $58,100

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

??? If a citizen lives within his means (not spend more than he has) he will do fine. No matter the faulty (if that, I don't know) system.

Technically speaking, yes. But the current system is set up at its foundation to fail the community. Surely that's obvious, if the government has to borrow its own money at interest, which must then be paid back by the community's taxes? The very economy of the country is based on debt.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Angela Leeds

... The very economy of the country is based on debt.

I'd rephrase that as: the economy is based on trust. Right or wrong, until the crisis broke out, the system was working not too bad (unless, as an individual, you indebted yourself too much). I'm pretty confident that somehow, one day, we'll wake up and notice the economy is picking up again. Similar to the crash of 1929. The US got out of that too, and why?

I don't know WHY it worked (will work), though. I'm not an economist, and consider the fact that it worked not too bad simply one of the mysteries of life.

[Asmoday]

I am an Economist, and I'd be happy to answer any questions, keeping in mind I'd be keeping my opinion out and only discussing the facts as I know them.

Credit and debt, in and of itself, is not a bad thing, and is a multiplier on growth and wealth. It effectively serves as a mechanism to take wealth and move it from where it is lower-productive and move it to where it is higher-productive. This benefits everyone, in the direct sense (I didn't have to save up 30,000 over a course of X years to buy that car, and ride the bus in the mean-time), and in the overall sense (try starting your own airline with funds out-of-pocket...you might be 60 when you got your first plane, and we'd all be waiting around to be able to fly anywhere). Now, you could do the same thing with a series of angel investors, but first, its going to be hard to convince angels to lend you money for consumer goods, and two, banks streamline the process, making it easier to access for everyone. Secondly, it allows the average person to get into the business as an angel, effectively using the bank as a broker to lend out their money for them, at a return.

If it helps, think of a community owned credit union, or a farmer owned trust, its doing the same service for its members, rather than a giant like Bear-Stearns, to see what I'm talking about.

This collapse happened because of something deeper. On the surface, we all see that the housing bubble popped. But the question remains, why was there a bubble in the first place?

Well, when we opened up free trade, we saw the end of the manufacturing economy, and then services popped in, but this overseas expansion continued
and even service jobs were moving out. If you freeze-frame that, our economy should have collapsed long ago. But, it didn't.

It didn't because Washington did "see" this, and realised something had to prop up growth. In stepped construction, commercial and residential -- the government put programs and incentives in place to get banks to lend on homes and cars and office buildings (commercial construction), like crazy. Consumers and developers jumped on this with no forsight (can you really expect them to have?), but the problem is, housing will always go UP in value, like real estate, as the population expands. This created a positive upward spiral, a bubble. The funds flowed like water. I said long ago, that when the mortgages stopped flowing, we would flatline. Eventually, 9/11 hit and the economy bumped -- then came spending on the war. Government borrowing put upwards pressure on interest rates, taken out privately (those private dollars are competing against government bonds), taken together, this is what caused the bubble to "pop".

Remember, half of a recession, just like half the value of your money -- is all just psychological. People react to the bubble and the initial layoffs and clamp down on spending, this is what caused the deep slide we're now in.

The only real way out is to go waaay back and realise we need new, tangible drivers for growth that aren't artificially propped up -- biotech, new technologies that drive industry that isn't easily exported, etc. Alternate energy would help. Infrastructure investment is not only desperately needed, but if innovative, it too can spur growth.

We *could* clamp down on free-trade and demand our manufacturing jobs back, but that's a step-backwards, and more importantly, its like giving cocaine to a patient who is having a heart attack.

And, for the record, the effetive tax-rate, by that I mean, the portion of all wealth generated that the government actually gets its hands on, is 48%, the two chief mouths the government feeds with that are defense, and social security/medicare.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

I'd rephrase that as: the economy is based on trust. Right or wrong, until the crisis broke out, the system was working not too bad (unless, as an individual, you indebted yourself too much).

Really? Then why is it that nowadays both parents have to work outside the home to have a normal lifestyle, when just in the 50s and early 60s Dad's income could support the whole family pretty comfortably?

And most families are NOT living fancy lifestyles with their two incomes, but just trying to pay the basic bills. I admit I'm talking from a white middle-class perspective, but I have poorer relatives who aren't making it on two or three incomes, and resort to welfare.

I'm pretty confident that somehow, one day, we'll wake up and notice the economy is picking up again. Similar to the crash of 1929. The US got out of that too, and why?

Sure it did, because of World War ll. Even so, the Stock Market itself didn't get back to pre-crash levels until the 60s.

Never mind the fact that the dollar's purchasing power (by many accounts) is now at four cents compared to 1913 levels.

[Asmoday]

Never mind the fact that the dollar's purchasing power (by many accounts) is now at four cents compared to 1913 levels.

That's not true -- can you back that up please? Whose accounts? Do you know how purchasing power is computed?

The only reason I ask all that is because, for you to consider that statement even remotely credible, you have to have no idea of what's behind purchasing power.

Our purchasing power has declined in the past two years, but not by much, certainly not to FOUR CENTS AGAINST A 1913 DOLLAR, most of it driven by oil price-gouging.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

I'd rephrase that as: the economy is based on trust. Right or wrong, until the crisis broke out, the system was working not too bad (unless, as an individual, you indebted yourself too much). I'm pretty confident that somehow, one day, we'll wake up and notice the economy is picking up again. Similar to the crash of 1929. The US got out of that too, and why?

I don't know WHY it worked (will work), though. I'm not an economist, and consider the fact that it worked not too bad simply one of the mysteries of life.

But there is more than trust at work -- there is active, purposeful manipulation of resources, which are invented out of thin air and extended to the masses, and then withdrawn, creating "not enuf" in circulation to attend to obligations.

I'm describing a system that was put in place precisely for its manipulatability to the benefit of the bankers. I'm not talking "money" on the level of LoA or public confidence.

This system is a very big deal. Kennedy was endeavoring to dismantle it prior to his assassination, so it's not something to take lightly. It's there for a purpose, and is being worked very diligently, and not for the benefit of the masses.

[escapee]

This collapse happened because of something deeper. On the surface, we all see that the housing bubble popped. But the question remains, why was there a bubble in the first place?

I'm no economist but my engineering/mathematical sense tells me there isn't enough real money / capital in the economy. Our money supply is effectively debt issued by the over-bloated lending industry. At some point in the future, the money supply in the economy has to contract violently because there isn't enough money to service the debt and interest. This is very evident now that virtually all companies have debt needed to be paid off and there isnt enough $$$ in the economy to move around. The winners of this debt base system will be the selected elite banks since there will be given life boat for the sake of financial stability. This is a perfect titanic situation whereby the too big to fail financial criminals were saved (Lifestyle maintained) and the too poor to save get sunken together with the ship (Eternal poverty). A perfect example of crony capitalism.

In 1920s, USA had a strong domestic and manufacturing economy with trade surplus. it didn't stop the debt/asset price bubble from popping and led to the great depression

The bankers/lenders created the problem by creating too much debt, and now they're given the power to fix the problem. The fox is still guarding the henhouse.


U.S. bank-fraud SYSTEMIC and INTENTIONAL – William Black

Black was blunt, and unequivocally harsh in his condemnation of all parties responsible for this crisis and (soon-to-be) scandal. In the process, he personally validated ALL of my own commentary on this subject.

When I referred to the U.S. financial sector as a “financial crime syndicate”, Black concurred entirely. He is convinced that this entire swindle was intentionally orchestrated by U.S. banksters – going all the way back to when Sir Alan Greenspan helped them begin to create the housing bubble.

In my reference to these Wall Street firms as “fraud factories”, Black concurred again. He states categorically that the entire business model of these companies centered on manufacturing fraud (and then paying themselves HUGE “bonuses” based on the phony “profits” of their crimes).

Naturally, Black was also able to provide some stunning, additional information on the “anatomy” of the world's largest fraud scheme. To start with, Black pointed out that back in 2004, the FBI announced there was an “epidemic of mortgage fraud” in the United States.


What was the response of the Bush regime to the FBI's announcement? Bush stripped the FBI of 80% of the white-collar experts who specialized in such crime. He sent them off after “terrorist” boogeymen, while the world's worst economic “terrorists” were engaged in a fraud scheme greater than EVERY other act of fraud in human history – combined.

Black refers to the (so-called) “credit rating” agencies, U.S. Treasury Secretary Paulson, and former New York Fed president (and now new Treasury Secretary) Geithner as fully complicit accomplices to this fraud.



He reviewed this campaign of fraud in detail. Black began by accusing all major U.S. banks of intentionally writing-up countless billions of dollars worth of knowingly fraudulent mortgages (“liar's loans”) - where the banks knew that these loans could never, possibly be repaid.


The securities fraudsters then knowingly packaged up these fraudulent loans, and took these “securities” to their accomplices: the “credit-rating” agencies. Contrary to their name, these companies never even attempted to evaluate the creditworthiness of these securities, before giving them “AAA” rubber-stamps.

TEA PARTY ? What about bankers' party ? ( IE: dumping bankers to the swimming pool )

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Angela Leeds

...
This system is a very big deal. Kennedy was endeavoring to dismantle it prior to his assassination, so it's not something to take lightly. It's there for a purpose, and is being worked very diligently, and not for the benefit of the masses.

I beg to differ with this one. People nowadays are more healthy and wealthy than 100, 200, 1000 years ago. We live longer, haver more luxury, more access to information, better technology, the list is endless.

I'm not saying the current system is good. I do say that it is not as bad as many people seem to think.

If the masses want better things for themselves, they have to work for it, same as 'the rich and the powerful elite'. And no, I am not a member of that elite. I wish .

This whole masses versus elite issue reeks of separation and victimness. Does not work for me.

[escapee]

This is not just about masses versus elites. This is about masses versus a bunch of elite fraudsters who are still not prosecuted by law but given more free money and more power to repair the problem they created in first place.

There is a big difference between mega rich elites who earn it through hard work and mega rich elites who lie and cheat their way to prosperity.


LET'S STOP WALL STREET LOAN-SHARKING
U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders

The “Masters of the Universe” on Wall Street – through their greed, recklessness and illegal behavior – have plunged this country into a deep recession causing millions of Americans to lose their jobs, their homes, their savings and their hope for the future. In order to fully understand the cause of this fiasco, I have introduced legislation calling for a thorough investigation of the financial meltdown and the prosecution of those CEOs who broke the law. The culture of greed, fraud and excessive speculation must come to an end.