Racism in America

[172]

Originally Posted by Milena

Thought this was sad

YouTube - A Girl Like Me

Yeah, it is really sad. And, very real. Still today.

[172]

Originally Posted by eliaino

This reminds me of something a friend of mine, from Hungary, told me about how Hungary had suffered since the Soviet Union fell. Hungary suffered terribly under the Soviet regime; in 1956, when they try to break free, the Russians crushed them mercilessly. To this day probably any Hungarian you meet will be very bitter and, yes, racist against the Russians for their occupation. But after the Iron curtain collapsed, all the protections were gone. There was no price fixing. Hungary was just another little country in a big world, having to compete for the first time in 45 years against other countries with more resources. During this latest crisis Hungary has suffered horribly, the forint (their currency) is worth much less, and there is less protection for them. And they suddenly went from having one enemy (the Russians) to having many false or maybe false friends or frenemies.

This is an excellent analogy. I am glad you shared it. I was unaware of this history and it shows human nature and how it will respond to certain external stimuli.

Originally Posted by eliaino

To be honest I don't understand this mentality. I can understand it in a sort of clinical sense, like if somebody went off the deep end when their child died, but I don't get why a young person, with brains and ambition, would throw their life away just to keep their friends from making fun of them. It's not just about race, I don't think, for all the reasons you mentioned, like a weak family unit.

172, do you think there is any way for people to escape this cycle of negativity and lift others out of it? Someone mentioned that the best black families escape from these ghetto situations, and I can't blame them, but the result is it just makes the situation worse.

Do you think Obama can help inspire black people, and maybe other minorities, to go in to politics? I hope so--but it seems like there were minority politicians in office before Obama. Not many, it's true. But do you think if, say, 30 of the Senate seats were taken up by minorities, instead of 2, would this be better or just be a "symbolic" victory?

Is it possible to create community when it's been ripped apart? I don't think you can legislate it, or throw money at the problem. Something like urban planning might help, but only to some extent. I'm just thinking aloud here, what's your opinion?

from my own perspective: I used to live in Berkeley, California, near campus. The neighborhood was mostly students (40% asian, 30% white), and affluent white people. Even though I think Berkeley was something like 15 or 20% black, and Oakland was even more than that, you'd never guess it from the street. The only black people I saw on a day to day basis were homeless people and shop assistants. I know that a lot of times I felt like black people were angry at me but they were very quiet about it, and I "stiffened up" and put on a sort of polite mask. This was really unpleasant and, frankly, made me afraid around black people. When I was in Belgium I was very surprised--as in, I literally did double takes--when African people didn't glare at me or try to stare me down in the street. I remember when one guy flirted with me, I thought something was wrong--like any second he was going to stop being friendly and get upset.

Racism is still a problem everywhere. It is more of a problem in some places than others, but we shouldn't pretend it isn't a problem, for us as well as for the wider community. (How can you say "I'm not racist" in a racist society? I don't think you can.) Think about the Roma in central and eastern europe, who still face tremendous obstacles to their integration into wider society despite having lived there for hundreds of years. It is not a war to be won in a generation, I think.

Well, troubled youth are being raised in a society where there are no fathers or where there are inept fathers. So, that drive is something that is not a part of day-to-day culture and many young black men have typically searched to fill the hole of that missing father with the next thing available which were gangs or certain activities that made them feel better about themselves like money, bling, etc. But, make no mistake, every young black man who is missing a father has a hole in his heart where he always wonders "is it something I did to make him leave?" They miss their daddy but are not conditioned to confront that pain and attempt to heal from it. So you see them selecting things that temporarily and, perhaps fraudulently fill the void.

As for black families who DO have the presence of mind (through their parents) to do better and choose better, the ones that leave oft times do so at the peril of the community at large. This leaves incomplete families and non-professional people who are struggling to be the only examples for everyone. Which was my point about desegregation. There was a time when successful, educated blacks could NOT leave the community behind, and it proved to be a positive influence on the community as a whole. Children looked UP to the successes of their neighbors and strove to build a life just like theirs.

With regard to politics, President Obama and his wife and children are a positive force for Black people to observe. I do think their story has and will continue to inspire Black people, especially children who haven't ever seen that kind of thing up close. Since the black community is not monolithic and there are huge numbers of blacks who ARE educated and successful, The Obamas seem to represent a bridge between the downtrodden and the successful in that they show another SIDE to what black people can manifest with education and hard work. They both came from working class circumstances and they transformed their realities. Then they turned around and GAVE BACK...something that many successful blacks only do from their home office when they write a check to the United Negro College Fund. Black children need to SEE success for themselves. The Obamas are a good example of this.

I do not think that 30 Black people in Congress is going to be an impetus for change. There needs to be this dearth of Blacks at high levels in order for Black people to feel the need for that change. It's fine the way it is because each new member to Congress or a Gubernatorial office tends to illicit a triumph for the Black community that it really needs to get inspired.

I think the real problem is EDUCATION. It's a snowball effect. But when your mother is not educated then neither will you be unless she's got an extra special understanding about how to get more for you than she had. Many Black schools are underfunded and have teachers who do not feel a sense of connection with the students. Children can feel their indifference. And, they are underpaid and struggling with overcrowding and disrespectful kids...so they have a tough time finding a good place in their job of teaching inner city kids.

Then, parents aren't educated so they tend not to check their child's homework or even make sure that it gets done. They don't panic if they suspect their child is missing too much school or skipping...or wants to drop out. They see a GED as a viable alternative rather than the traditional route. They put their children out at 18. They do not have the knowhow to navigate the college application process and they believe there is no way to fund sending a child to college for lack of information about grants/scholarship resources.

Generations of this over and over again have resulted in what we have seen through the 90's and the 21st century. It's getting better slowly. Things are on the upswing but it will take a long time. Today, the numbers of black women with post-graduate degrees are enormous and I believe they are comparable to that of other ethnic groups of women in this country. Those women are going to become mothers who KNOW HOW to guide their children. So, it is changing and will continue to.

I believe the No Child Left Behind Act needs to be revamped. I also believe there has to be a more concerted effort to reach the needs of children whose parents do not have the understanding or are just too lazy to support schools and teachers and reinforce education in the home.

When those things get done, there will be greater change. Educated people raise educated people. And the converse is true.

Slowly but surely, things are improving but we still struggle with broken families. That's the other part of the puzzle that needs to be healed.

And, at Berkely...and everywhere, it's never that Black people are angry at a particular person, so much as it is, that Black people know how you see them. They know that they are less. That they come from less. That their parents weren't educated and, therefore, neither are they. That their opportunities growing up were limited and yours were not which is why they couldn't find the path to realize the fire they were feeling to be somebody and to do something important. And, yes, black people, many, are really, really missing that part of their heritage that would give them pride that they come from a great people. Coming from slaves is not an ideal notion. And, not knowing which country in a great continent you come from is painful.

[172]

I recently tried to trace my ancestry back...just to find out what plantation my family was from. And, it was very painful and sad. Because as I got farther back, I realized that I would never find one plantation because slaves were sold off to other plantations as a regular course of business. There is no way of really knowing. And, therefore, no way to trace it back farther to our villages and tribes in Africa. That's rough. So, yes, they are angry but they know it's not something that was within the control of any white person today. They all understand that. But, it's just a great tragedy with no real closure nor solution.

So...again....education will get us past this. And, I believe we will see a shift over the next 20-30 years for the better in the Black community. My last hope is that there can be a serious enough shift to prevent the great cradle-to-penetentiary pipeline that many black men end up in. Convicted black felons have nearly no chance of rehabilitation nor of getting a job in the real world. Thanks for your questions.

[jojiobi]

The point you made about the cultural differences of blacks whose ancestors are from different countries is something that I can identify with. I am an immigrant to the US. I was born and raised in Jamaica. People seem to expect me to fit in with the other black students and join the black cliques which never made sense to me because I had nothing in common with them. In Jamaica there is no black culture, just Jamaican culture and I found that to be more compatible with other immigrants than native born Americans, even if they happened to be black. My closest friends in this country are from Japan Croatia and Pakistan. People find that weird when I tell them but these are the people I am most compatible with.

[Plays With Life]

I enjoyed that movie Crash.

When I moved to Montana, I was surprised how people kept saying things like:

"Listen, I'm not racist, BUT .."
(Black people do this)
(and Black people do that)
(and can you believe this experience I had with Black people?)

Uhh .. right. If you want to express some racist sentiments, why would you bother preceding it with a disclaimer that you're not racist?

But on the other side of this coin, when I do run into a black person out around town here, they approach ME as though I will treat them this way. I look up into aggressive eyes, seemingly because they're expecting me to think of them in some negative way. If I say hello, or something, this fades away.

There's also the kind of "positive racism" that white people get from a whole slew of other people, around the world. If you're white, you have money. If you're white, you're beautiful. If you're white, you're smart. It might seem innocuous, because the presumptions are of "positive" traits. But really - it's presumptions about a person, based on their skin color / heritage.

[Brutha]

It might seem innocuous, because the presumptions are of "positive" traits. But really - it's presumptions about a person, based on their skin color / heritage.

The problem doesn't lie in making presumptions about people. It's impossible to make rational decisions without making presumptions. Of course you don't have to be conscious of your presumption but that doesn't change the fact that you need priors.

The question is whether you have priors that do harm to some of the people you are interacting with and whether your priors allow you to make effective decisions.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by Brutha

The problem doesn't lie in making presumptions about people. It's impossible to make rational decisions without making presumptions. Of course you don't have to be conscious of your presumption but that doesn't change the fact that you need priors.

The question is whether you have priors that do harm to some of the people you are interacting with and whether your priors allow you to make effective decisions.

(I think by priors you mean presumptions / pre-conceived notions, here?)

Particularly, what I mentioned in that quote leads to the "pedestaled" white people becoming targets for robbery, sometimes violent; and pedestaled white females becoming targets for rape.

[Brutha]

(I think by priors you mean presumptions / pre-conceived notions, here?)

If you meet Bob there a chance that he's wealthy and a chance that he isn't.

Human brains do pattern matching by going through "memories" of people who are like Bob on an unconscious level to get a prior distribution of how likely it is for Bob to be rich. When you have additional information you continue to compare the additional information to patterns in your head.

If you use a more formal decision theory like bayesian statistics you need to start with some assumptions you make before you look at the data of a particular trial.

There's no decision making strategy that works that starts with a blank slate.
Even if you assume in your head that a random person you meet on the street of Kenya has the same likely hood of being rich as a random person you meet in New York you are still making assumptions.
That's however an assumption that will likely reduce your ability to perceive the world the way it is.

If you believe that people who wear a business suit are more likely to be wealthy than people who don't you are also making an assumption that's generally true.

The same goes for beliefs that certain kind of behavior like tipping the waitress a lot are associated with being wealthy.

On a unconscious level you have thousands of different of those assumptions in every interaction you have in your life. In human those assumptions aren't linearly added but our brain seeks for patterns in them.

Problems develop when those assumption develop into negative self profilling prophecies or when the assumptions don't match reality and therefore can be replaced by better prior assumptions.

[JMan]

"Let us not wallow in the valley of despair, I say to you today, my friends.

And so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of "interposition" and "nullification" -- one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; "and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together."2

This is our hope, and this is the faith that I go back to the South with.

With this faith, we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith, we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith, we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

And this will be the day -- this will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning:

My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing.

Land where my fathers died, land of the Pilgrim's pride,

From every mountainside, let freedom ring!

And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true.

And so let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire.

Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York.

Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania.

Let freedom ring from the snow-capped Rockies of Colorado.

Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California.

But not only that:

Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia.

Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee.

Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi.

From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

And when this happens, when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual:

Free at last! Free at last!

Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

Martin Luther King
Advocate for Freedom

Fight for Freedom
Man is not a color
Man is a spirit, in relationship with his creator
Whether he sees it or not
Peace starts in your heart

[amj]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy

I have been considering this post for quite some time, and finally have decided that it was time to post it. There are a couple of things I would like to say regarding the post, before I get to the real topic. First, I very often see posts like this where someone will state that they are not racist, while saying things that sound very racist. I sometimes have a hard time taking those posts seriously, as I feel that the poster is not being honest with himself/herself, so is probably also not being honest with the rest of us. I hope that with this post I do not come across that way, although I realize that it is a very real possibility. Also, I would like to say that I am not posting this merely as a way to start controversy. I do expect this to be a controversial post, but generating controversy or offending others is not the intention.

I have three primary purposes for making this post. Firstly, I believe this is a topic worthy of discussion, so I hope this post will generate some constructive discussion on the topic. Secondly, my views on the subject are normally not very popular views, and I would like to see if there are others who do share my views, or if I am mostly alone in my beliefs. Lastly, I would like to hear others views on the topic.

I believe that racism in the US, and I am sure the rest of the world, is a very real and horrible thing. I have been around a great deal of racism, and have seen how ingrained it is in some people. Not only do I not condone racism, I find it disgusting. I believe that racism is based primarily on fear and ignorance, and serves no useful purpose in our society.

My strong views on racism have caused me to take notice of interactions within our society that relate to racism. One thing that has surprised me, is that it appears to me that oftentimes, the very victims of racism play a role in the generation of that racism.

There are many groups facing racism in the US, I will use one as an example. I do not, however, think that this discussion need to be limited to any specific group.

There is no doubting the fact that the black community faces a great deal of racism. This racism has existed since well before this country was founded. I am not suggesting that the black community started the racism. What I do suggest, however, is that they have a part to play in the racism that currently exists in the US.

Anyone familiar with the equal rights movement in the US is familiar with the racial segregation that existed for years in this country. While for many years the idea of "Separate but Equal" was accepted, it is now condemned as being another form of inequality. I feel, however, that we see something similar in black communities of the present. I believe that many within the black community have chosen to adopt an approach of "different but equal". I don't feel that "different but equal" is any better than "separate but equal", and has no place in our society.

Some may argue that the black community has its own culture to maintain, and should not be forced to conform to the culture of "White-America". I very much support preserving ones cultural identity, but I don't feel that this is applicable in this situation. If we were talking about a group of people from a specific country or region, then I would understand their desire to maintain their cultural identity. My experience, however, is that the only thing common among most members of the black community is the color of their skin. How can someone whose ancestry traces to Kenya share a common culture with someone who traces their ancestry to Barbados? I do not think that sharing a physical attribute has any relation to sharing a culture. That would be like me saying that I needed to get all other blue-eyed people in this country to help me preserve our blue-eyed heritage.

I also feel that the black community is not trying to preserve their culture, as much as they have tried to create a new culture. While it is common for people from other countries to bring aspects of that culture with them, I can't think of any other group in our country that has gone so far to create their own culture. What other groups have developed such a specific style of dress, created their own way of speaking, developed their own styles of music or made up their own names? While these things have made their way into mainstream society, they originated within and are closely associated with the black community. It is these things that make be believe that there is an attempt being made to create separate culture. I see little evidence that this is being done for any reason other than simply to be different.

It would be ignorant to suggest that this applies to everyone in the black community. I do not believe that is the case at all. I also do not suggest that most members of the community are making a conscious choice at being different. It seems that the black community has developed in such a way as to encourage members to follow along, or risk being considered sell-outs or traitors.

There have been many successful members of the black community who have made significant impacts to our society. The most obvious example being Barack Obama. It seems, however, that it takes much more effort for a young black man or woman to be successful than if they were another race. I do not think this is because they are less capable, or have less options available to them. I believe it is primarily because the community encourages them to avoid such ventures. It seems that in the black community of today the only way to be successful and respected is to become a rapper or athlete. It seems that those who achieve success in other areas; accountants, managers, etc. are often viewed as being sell-outs. Barack Obama has even been accused of not being "black enough", which suggests that the community expects a certain way of acting to be considered "black".

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are two figures who come to mind who seem to be considered "black enough" to represent the community. The difference I see there is that they seem to concern themselves primarily with issues that are race-specific. While Barack Obama seems to be concerned with bettering the nation, those two seemed more concerned with bettering the black community. I believe that public figures such as Jackson and Sharpton add to the racism problems, as they are focus so much on the black community as a separate and different group within our nation.

I believe that to have true racial equality in this nation we must first work to make skin color as irrelevant as hair or eye color. As long as we talk about the black community as though it is something different, then I do not feel that racial equality will exist. Some may argue that I am suggesting that black people be forced to abandon their culture, and accept the culture of White-America. I believe, however, that my suggestion is simply to stop trying to create a separate culture, stop trying to be different and become an American. I don't think that requires the black community to give up their music, way of dressing, etc as those things have already made their way into mainstream American society. What I do think is required, however, is for people (on both sides) to stop thinking in terms of black or white, because that too easily turns into us vs them.

As a Black man here is what I think.

Very interesting. SomeRandomGuy, you are very ignorant my friend. You are not dumb or stupid or any of that, you are just very ignorant. Anyone who shares your views is very ignorant as well. What you should do is ask questions because obviously, you know very little about Black culture, African culture, African American culture, etc. Assuming will get you nowhere. I would be much happier if you, or someone who shared your views, asked questions about the Black race. You will not learn anything from assuming.

I would be happy to answer any questions but please, no more assuming.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by amj

As a Black man here is what I think.

Very interesting. SomeRandomGuy, you are very ignorant my friend. You are not dumb or stupid or any of that, you are just very ignorant. Anyone who shares your views is very ignorant as well. What you should do is ask questions because obviously, you know very little about Black culture, African culture, African American culture, etc. Assuming will get you nowhere. I would be much happier if you, or someone who shared your views, asked questions about the Black race. You will not learn anything from assuming.

I would be happy to answer any questions but please, no more assuming.

You've got me curious, amj. What is he assuming that you don't think is right?

[amj]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

You've got me curious, amj. What is he assuming that you don't think is right?

Maybe assume was the wrong word. Just very very very ignorant statements.

He thinks the only thing black people have in common is the color of their skin. Here is what he said. "My experience, however, is that the only thing common among most members of the black community is the color of their skin." That's so ignorant and untrue. We share a history of slavery. That's one very obvious thing we have in common. The drums, the dance, and even the slang (the slang is another conversation in itself) comes from Africa and is something we share to this day. I could give way more examples but for right now I'll leave it at that.

He then said, "I also feel that the black community is not trying to preserve their culture, as much as they have tried to create a new culture." This comment made no sense. So being innovative is un-American? He went on to talk about how we created our own style of dress and that we speak differently and that we do this to create a separate culture. He needs to understand that Black people are just as much "American" as White people. We were taken here and helped build this country for free. Why should we have to fit in with White society?? So let me get this straight; we were taken from our homeland, forced to work for free, got beat up, tortured, burned, raped, humiliated, and killed but now we are supposed to fit in and try to be like the people who put us through this agony and misery? Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

I can literally write pages about this topic but for your sake, I'll bring my lecture to a close. The point is, SomeRandomGuy has no knowledge on the subject he is speaking about, but he has so much to say about it. Let me give this example. Since I know very little about Chinese culture wouldn't it would make me look silly to speak about Chinese culture? He should ask questions, like, "why do black people seem to separate themselves from other races?" or "do black people feel that they are have a culture to preserve?" Do you understand what I am saying?

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by amj

...
We were taken here and helped build this country for free. Why should we have to fit in with White society??

Skip the White Society crap maybe? Just contribute to society, like we all should do, no matter our race or gender.

So let me get this straight; we were taken from our homeland, forced to work for free, got beat up, tortured, burned, raped, humiliated, and killed but now we are supposed to fit in and try to be like the people who put us through this agony and misery? Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

The 'We' you talk about have been dead for generations. Leave them in peace. My ancestors also had to go through harsh things but I don't let that be a burden in MY life. Instead I'm grateful for what they gave me and try to make the best of my life and the people I care for. You don't have to become white, or yellow, or red or whatever. Who told you so? It's a vicious lie.

You seem to think that the only black should fit in. That's silly. Everyone needs to fit in to make society work. At long last there's a black president in the USA. He fits in, makes sacrifices and doesn't let his blackness worry him (as far as I can tell) or keep him down. Now THAT's a role model!

I can literally write pages about this topic but for your sake, I'll bring my lecture to a close. The point is, SomeRandomGuy has no knowledge on the subject he is speaking about, but he has so much to say about it. Let me give this example. Since I know very little about Chinese culture wouldn't it would make me look silly to speak about Chinese culture? He should ask questions, like, "why do black people seem to separate themselves from other races?" or "do black people feel that they are have a culture to preserve?" Do you understand what I am saying?

I understand, but why not educate us ignorant people then? I am always willing to learn something new. But please don't go to: "You're not black, you can't understand." Help me understand.

[Plays With Life]

Thanks, amj. I do see what you're saying. I've always found the slang fascinating. Black people seem to have done it all across the Americas. In Belize and all along the Caribbean coast of Central America, the black folks speak this mixture of thickly accented Creole English and thickly accented Spanish. Darned if I can understand what the heck they're saying half the time

Originally Posted by amj

We were taken here and helped build this country for free. Why should we have to fit in with White society?? So let me get this straight; we were taken from our homeland, forced to work for free, got beat up, tortured, burned, raped, humiliated, and killed but now we are supposed to fit in and try to be like the people who put us through this agony and misery? Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

I don't see what you're saying, here. Did this happen to you? Or to someone you know? Are you saying the white people who are alive today put you through this? In my experience, the average white person in the U.S. doesn't go around doing this things; and in fact would find them horrific if they encountered them.

I don't think you have to fit in with white society, though.

[Jaiysun4]

Some really interesting, and intelligent, observations i must say. I like somerandomguy and Brutha's comments.

I'm Welsh, just so you know I'm not American.

In my opinion, it was only 50 years ago that your country was segregating ethnic minorities as 2nd class citizens..separate schools, shops, laws, everything. So you've come a really long way in only 50 years, with a black president now!

Seriously, I think racism in America is more prevalent with the attitude towards Muslims and middle eastern people now. Black people are accepted as black Americans, whereas I have heard many horrible things about muslims even being murdered for their looks etc.

[amj]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Skip the White Society crap maybe? Just contribute to society, like we all should do, no matter our race or gender.



The 'We' you talk about have been dead for generations. Leave them in peace. My ancestors also had to go through harsh things but I don't let that be a burden in MY life. Instead I'm grateful for what they gave me and try to make the best of my life and the people I care for. You don't have to become white, or yellow, or red or whatever. Who told you so? It's a vicious lie.

You seem to think that the only black should fit in. That's silly. Everyone needs to fit in to make society work. At long last there's a black president in the USA. He fits in, makes sacrifices and doesn't let his blackness worry him (as far as I can tell) or keep him down. Now THAT's a role model!



I understand, but why not educate us ignorant people then? I am always willing to learn something new. But please don't go to: "You're not black, you can't understand." Help me understand.

I'm all for contributing to society. SomeRandomGuy's comments were not about contributing to society so I did not address that.

I used the word 'We' when referring to my ancestors because my history means a lot to me. When people go through hardships, they tend to stick together and become closer. This was what happened during slavery. "To let it be" would be to deny my history and I refuse to do that. What happened in the past is not a burden in my life and I don't hold it against you or the next man/woman. SomeRandomGuy was basically saying that Black people should fit in and follow suit with White people. My comments were addressing that.

When I say fit in, I mean change who we are. Why can't we dress a certain way, have our own habits, and be creative and innovative with music, speech, etc? As long as we are not harming anyone what is the problem? Again, I was responding to SomeRandomGuy's comments where he suggested that doing this was a bad thing.

I would be happy to educate you. What would you like to know?

[amj]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

Thanks, amj. I do see what you're saying. I've always found the slang fascinating. Black people seem to have done it all across the Americas. In Belize and all along the Caribbean coast of Central America, the black folks speak this mixture of thickly accented Creole English and thickly accented Spanish. Darned if I can understand what the heck they're saying half the time



I don't see what you're saying, here. Did this happen to you? Or to someone you know? Are you saying the white people who are alive today put you through this? In my experience, the average white person in the U.S. doesn't go around doing this things; and in fact would find them horrific if they encountered them.

I don't think you have to fit in with white society, though.

When I say 'we' I am referring to my ancestors. There is a deep connection between Black people and their ancestors.

Black people were enslaved and forced to change their culture while enslaved. Black people were not allowed to speak their native language or play drums (which was used as a form of communication). Basically, much of our culture was stripped from us. Now that slavery has ended, people expect Black people to disabandon the little bit of African culture that has managed to stay with us throughout slavery. That doesn't make sense to me.

I addressed SomeRandomGuy's comments. He feels that Black people should stop being different. He feels that since we are being different, we are participating in some form of racism. I say that we have the right to be as different as we want to be without being called racist. My ancestors helped to build this country and were raped, tortured, etc. Given all of that, you would think Black people would HATE white people but this is not the case... At the very least we should be able to live our lives without being called racist.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by amj

As a Black man here is what I think.

Very interesting. SomeRandomGuy, you are very ignorant my friend. You are not dumb or stupid or any of that, you are just very ignorant. Anyone who shares your views is very ignorant as well. What you should do is ask questions because obviously, you know very little about Black culture, African culture, African American culture, etc. Assuming will get you nowhere. I would be much happier if you, or someone who shared your views, asked questions about the Black race. You will not learn anything from assuming.

I would be happy to answer any questions but please, no more assuming.

Thanks for your feedback. I realize that the point I wanted to make did not come across well to you, and maybe that is because it was not well presented.

I think it is great when people preserve their cultural heritage. What I often see, however, is that the "black community" is made up of people from all across the world; some of which may be recent immigrants, other's whose families have lived in the US for generations. It is in those cases where it seems that the "black culture" is built on having the same color skin, not sharing a common heritage.

If you have a group of people, some originally from Kenya, some originally from Jamaica, and some whose family have been in the US for 500 years, what heritage do they share? I might be wrong, feel free to correct me, but the only common trait I see there is skin color.

It sounds like you do not agree that skin color is what ties these people together. Would you mind sharing some of your thoughts on the common heritage shared by members of the black community whose ancestors were from different parts of the world. Perhaps there is just something that I am missing. Maybe the family from Kenya and the family from Jamaica do share a common culture that I am just unaware of.

[Plays With Life]

Well, I would think more that the particular black people who were raped and tortured, would probably hate the particular white people who did the raping and the torturing.

Black people today are raped and killed by other black people. Does that mean black people should hate black people, too?

White people go around doing horrific things to other white people, too. Every cultural group has some people who do these things. But I don't think the responsibility for doing those things transfers to the people who had no part in them.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by amj

When I say 'we' I am referring to my ancestors. There is a deep connection between Black people and their ancestors.

Black people were enslaved and forced to change their culture while enslaved. Black people were not allowed to speak their native language or play drums (which was used as a form of communication). Basically, much of our culture was stripped from us. Now that slavery has ended, people expect Black people to disabandon the little bit of African culture that has managed to stay with us throughout slavery. That doesn't make sense to me.

I addressed SomeRandomGuy's comments. He feels that Black people should stop being different. He feels that since we are being different, we are participating in some form of racism. I say that we have the right to be as different as we want to be without being called racist. My ancestors helped to build this country and were raped, tortured, etc. Given all of that, you would think Black people would HATE white people but this is not the case... At the very least we should be able to live our lives without being called racist.

Sorry, I didn't see this reply until I had already posted my other response. I think you may have misunderstood my belief on this. I applaud black people for trying to preserve their cultural heritage. I think that some of those whose families were slaves for generations likely lost some of their culture, which is a shame.

As I have been writing this response I have been developing a theory, and so I would like to run it by you. My initial response is that if the black community are just trying to hold onto their heritage it should be possible to tell where an individual's ancestors were from based on how they dress, etc. That does not appear to be the case, however.

Is the issue, however, that because of slavery, many in the community do not know where their ancestors were from? Is that why you refer to African Culture, rather than Kenyan Culture, Egyptian Culture, etc? If that is the case, then that does make sense to me. Africa is a huge continent, with many cultures that vary greatly. Perhaps bits and pieces of those cultures that survived slavery have been merged into the African American Culture in the US? That would explain why it is easier to recognize an Irishman or Italian, than to recognize a Kenyan vs an Egyptian.

Assuming that I am thinking of this correctly, then I am starting to understand a little better why there is a shared black community in the US, even though the members have descended from many different cultures. In that case, the "new" culture that I perceive has been built on top of remnants from many African cultures, so has become its own distinct culture.

Am I getting warm?

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by amj

...
When I say fit in, I mean change who we are. Why can't we dress a certain way, have our own habits, and be creative and innovative with music, speech, etc? As long as we are not harming anyone what is the problem? Again, I was responding to SomeRandomGuy's comments where he suggested that doing this was a bad thing.
...

Who says you can't? And why would you do as they say? I don't think, reading SRG's posts, is that that is what he meant.

I see lots of black culture appreciated by many non blacks too: jazz, dance, hip hop, clothes, etc.

Many blacks have been mistreated in the past (slavery being the biggest). But they are not the only ones. Lots of Jews killed in WW2, lots of people worldwide persecuted for religious reasons (to the point of witch hunting, torture, killing), genocide in Armenia, etc etc.

It seemt to me that blacks claim special treatment and take a victim position because their ancestors were enslaved and taken from Africa. Yes that has happened, yes it was bad (I don't think many people nowadways would approve), but can we leave it in the past instead of clinging to it? I'm not saying forget it, it never happened. I do say: honour your ancestors but also get on with your life here and now.

What I would like to know is why blacks need to cling to the past much more than caucasians, asians and others. BTW I thinks this is much more a USA blacks issue than an African blacks issue.

And what would your ideal society look like? How is it different from your current society?

[cylon]

The entire point of American Society is that we come from different countries and cultures and backgrounds and build a new society that is made up of all those disparate elements coming together to create an American. The essence of the country is that we leave those differences behind and identify ourselves simply as "Americans". Doesn't mean you abandon your cultural heritage but the idea the founders had was that we come together and assimilate and literally create a different culture and heritage, even RACE (loosely used of course), of our own, the "American Citizen".

How successful we as a nation are at that is up for debate.

[amj]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy

Thanks for your feedback. I realize that the point I wanted to make did not come across well to you, and maybe that is because it was not well presented.

I think it is great when people preserve their cultural heritage. What I often see, however, is that the "black community" is made up of people from all across the world; some of which may be recent immigrants, other's whose families have lived in the US for generations. It is in those cases where it seems that the "black culture" is built on having the same color skin, not sharing a common heritage.

If you have a group of people, some originally from Kenya, some originally from Jamaica, and some whose family have been in the US for 500 years, what heritage do they share? I might be wrong, feel free to correct me, but the only common trait I see there is skin color.

It sounds like you do not agree that skin color is what ties these people together. Would you mind sharing some of your thoughts on the common heritage shared by members of the black community whose ancestors were from different parts of the world. Perhaps there is just something that I am missing. Maybe the family from Kenya and the family from Jamaica do share a common culture that I am just unaware of.

Ok now I see what you are saying and I could see how you might think Black people from different regions have little in common. As you probably know, the slave trade involved shipping Africans to North America, South America, and the West Indies, so slavery in itself is something we have in common. Much of the culture was stripped away during slavery, but some was preserved. The music, dance, and even religion in some cases are examples. Today, we still share these commonalities.

In the U.S. the majority of the Blacks are descendants of slaves. There are Blacks who have immigrated from other countries but for the most part, we are here because of slavery and it is true that Blacks in the U.S. have more in common than Blacks in South America, West Indies, etc...

But your original point was that Blacks play a role in the racism that exists. You used bad reasoning and your examples no evidence of racism. To say that Blacks are racist for being different would be similar to saying that Chinese Americans are being racist for creating China Town. A racist person believes that their race is superior. Give me examples of how you feel Blacks in the U.S. demonstrate this racism.

[cylon]

Self-proclaimed black leaders in America like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are constantly blaming white people for every problem they have ever experienced, or ever could experience. When you are attacking a race the way they do, that is racism.

Of course, the argument could be made that it's not so much racism towards whites, but just stoking the flames of anger to keep the money rolling into their causes, keep them in the news, further their own agenda of power and glory at the expense of the people they claim to represent.

All races have the capacity for racism, no one is excluded, no matter their background or how "justified" they feel in using another race as a scapegoat based on history.

Every race has been a slave to someone else in human history. No one was exempt.

[amj]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Who says you can't? And why would you do as they say? I don't think, reading SRG's posts, is that that is what he meant.

I see lots of black culture appreciated by many non blacks too: jazz, dance, hip hop, clothes, etc.

Many blacks have been mistreated in the past (slavery being the biggest). But they are not the only ones. Lots of Jews killed in WW2, lots of people worldwide persecuted for religious reasons (to the point of witch hunting, torture, killing), genocide in Armenia, etc etc.

It seemt to me that blacks claim special treatment and take a victim position because their ancestors were enslaved and taken from Africa. Yes that has happened, yes it was bad (I don't think many people nowadways would approve), but can we leave it in the past instead of clinging to it? I'm not saying forget it, it never happened. I do say: honour your ancestors but also get on with your life here and now.

What I would like to know is why blacks need to cling to the past much more than caucasians, asians and others. BTW I thinks this is much more a USA blacks issue than an African blacks issue.

And what would your ideal society look like? How is it different from your current society?

Cling to the past? I think that's a dangerous phrase. I would say we are conscious of our past. We will never forget our past but I would not say that we cling to our past. We are proud people. We are proud that our ancestors survived and fought. We made it! Our history is much richer than I can explain. It's difficult to put it all into words. I can speak about it but writing everything down and explaining implications would take days. If you want, I can try to put it all into words when I respond to your next quote.

We are conscious of our past because our past comes up often. When Black people are treated inappropriately by police, it reminds us that we are still not treated as equal. When the U.S. Presidents do nothing to stop police misconduct, it reminds us that we are still not treated as equal. These are just two examples (there are lots of other examples) that came to mind. And yes, police misconduct with Blacks is very common across the nation.

I'm not saying it's all bad out here. I'm just answering your question. My life is pretty good, but I am fully aware of what occurs outside of my bubble. I have experienced things that an American should not have to experience and the reason I experienced these things is because I am Black.

So if you want to know why we it's still fresh in our minds, it's because we have yet to be treated like equals. Sure, things are better than they used to be. My fellow peers treat me like equals. But across the board, we are not treated like equals.

[amj]

Originally Posted by cylon

Self-proclaimed black leaders in America like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are constantly blaming white people for every problem they have ever experienced, or ever could experience. When you are attacking a race the way they do, that is racism.

Of course, the argument could be made that it's not so much racism towards whites, but just stoking the flames of anger to keep the money rolling into their causes, keep them in the news, further their own agenda of power and glory at the expense of the people they claim to represent.

All races have the capacity for racism, no one is excluded, no matter their background or how "justified" they feel in using another race as a scapegoat based on history.

Every race has been a slave to someone else in human history. No one was exempt.

First of all, I don't care for Al Sharpton much and I despise Jesse Jackson. However, they don't attack Whites. They respond to injustice inflicted upon Blacks. When was the last time they attacked someone? Who did they attack? Give me examples.

You obviously know very very little about Sharpton and Jackson. I don't know it all but I do know what they stand for.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by amj

First of all, I don't care for Al Sharpton much and I despise Jesse Jackson. However, they don't attack Whites. They respond to injustice inflicted upon Blacks. When was the last time they attacked someone? Who did they attack? Give me examples.

Forcing Rush Limbaugh out of an NFL ownership.

Originally Posted by amj

You obviously know very very little about Sharpton and Jackson. I don't know it all but I do know what they stand for.

How can you make that assertion? I have been following politics, and these two men, for years. You may disagree with me, and my conclusions, but how could you possibly assume that I know very little? I know probably more about them than you do, because I pay attention to all the disparate views that are aired in our country. Clearly you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what I have to say.

Honestly, why does it have to go straight to a personal attack? Can't you handle any disagreement with your views, based on the issue at hand, without hurling insults or claiming someone is ignorant? This country will never heal ANY "wounds" if the discourse always starts out with "you're ignorant. You don't know what you're talking about."

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by amj

But your original point was that Blacks play a role in the racism that exists. You used bad reasoning and your examples no evidence of racism. To say that Blacks are racist for being different would be similar to saying that Chinese Americans are being racist for creating China Town. A racist person believes that their race is superior. Give me examples of how you feel Blacks in the U.S. demonstrate this racism.

I don't think that blacks (in general) are racist. My point was that they contribute to racism against them by insisting on being different. My point was that if the only thing they had in common was the color of their skin, then by creating their own culture they were contributing to the creation of a society in which racism against them exists. Now that I better understand why black who descended from different countries developed a common culture during and following slavery it makes more sense.

Racism, or any sort of prejudice, only exists when people are different. In fact, I believe that that prejudice exists anytime one group is seen as being different from another group (even if the separation is only idealogical, such as with politics or religion). As much as I disapprove of racism, however, I would never suggest that people should become more homogenized in order to avoid racism. I especially would not suggest anyone lose their cultural heritage to avoid being the target of racism. Before you pointed out to me the shared African heritage (as opposed to a national heritage) shared by most of the black community, it seemed that by coming together based on skin color alone the community was unnecessarily setting themselves aside as different. My thinking was, why create a different culture and face racism just because your skin is a different color? I would not have asked the community to change, if that is what they wanted, but it was hard to understand the point. Now that I understand the African Culture aspect better, it makes more sense.

I am glad that you dropped by and joined in this thread. I feel like I have learned something today.

[spirit4711]

@amj, I'd like to send you a Private Message but you have disabled that in your profile.

So here goes: I'm taking a forum break starting tomorrow or the day after, so will not continue this discussion with you, even though I find it very interesting.

Thanks for further clarifying your point of view!

[amj]

Originally Posted by cylon

Forcing Rush Limbaugh out of an NFL ownership.



How can you make that assertion? I have been following politics, and these two men, for years. You may disagree with me, and my conclusions, but how could you possibly assume that I know very little? I know probably more about them than you do, because I pay attention to all the disparate views that are aired in our country. Clearly you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what I have to say.

Honestly, why does it have to go straight to a personal attack? Can't you handle any disagreement with your views, based on the issue at hand, without hurling insults or claiming someone is ignorant? This country will never heal ANY "wounds" if the discourse always starts out with "you're ignorant. You don't know what you're talking about."

First you lumped Black leaders into a general category. Then you made a generalization when you said they blame white peole for every problem they could have ever experienced. Come on, now. You and I both know that isn't true. So that's where my assumptions came from. Because if you knew about them you wouldn't make those false statements and you wouldn't lump Black leaders into a negative category.

I never insulted you. I said you didn't know about Sharpton and Jackson. What is personal about that? Yes I said SomeRandomGuy was ignorant. An ignoarant person doesn't know. They lack knowledge. I am ignorant when it comes to Indian culture or Jewish culture. SomeRandomGuy is ignorant when it comes to Black people. How is that an insult?