Abolish Child Support

[Still Growing]

Angela & James,

Thanks for supporting some of what I'm saying to ALG.

I've noticed that when anyone keeps making comments such as "Its simple as that". Its typically "not as simple as that".

ALG and Indiana are not the exception. They are the norm.

Society believes that men should be responsible for their decision to have sex. Men are viewed to be the lucky ones to get sex and therefor must deal with the consequences. The focus should be based upon a discussion between a man and women when its determined that she is pregnant. Should she get an abortion, should they put the baby up for adoption, will he support her decision literally and figuratively.

The decision to have sex is NOT the decision to raise a child. They are two completely different decision processes in today's world.

We are basing our system on the old version where abortions were illegal or a carnal sin and adoptions were not possible. Imagine 100 years ago when nobody would adopt your child hardly because there wasn't enough food or clothing. Today you can find thousands of families so happy to raise your child.

My point is that our ideology is based upon 1950's logic.

Women today are powerful and can stand on their own two feet. In today's world women can make a decision to have a baby with or without the support of the man. She can decide.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

The focus should be based upon a discussion between a man and women when its determined that she is pregnant.

To be clear, my suggestion is that a great time for discussion and reflection about consequences is before sex takes place. If you have sex with a woman without taking the time to do your best to find out her beliefs and commitments regarding sex, and without taking those into consideration in choosing to have sex with her, then you're not being the captain of your own ship and you'd be a dummy to be surprised at the inappropriate ports you find yourself in, to paraphrase Tom Robbins. And of course the same is true for women.

Despite your belief that old '50's style or other traditions, like not being willing to have an abortion or give a child up for adoption, don't work well, you may wake up one morning having just knocked up a woman who is just fine with traditions like those, and you may find yourself in a heck of a predicament. Currently, there are laws that would support her and possibly oppress you; of course you may work to change those laws, but in the meanwhile they are possible consequences that could seriously impact your life. A woman, on the other hand, can work to change laws that would protect her even more, or to enforce ones that are already in existence, but in the meanwhile she would be wise to consider the possible consequences of a man not conforming to those laws, or dying, or not having any money, or or or. Well BEFORE they choose to have sex.

(And of course I mean "one" when I say "you" in that last paragraph.)

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by James81

It's ok to kill a child, but if the mother doesn't get a bunch of money that she doesn't even have to spend on the child, then that would be wrong?

Ooh, bad discussion technique. It's not OK to kill a child. If you refer to abortion, and you're against that, better not get in to a situation your sex partner would decide for it.

Bad parents (M/F) occur everywhere. Hasn't got anything to do with paying child support. If you think a parent is bad for their kid, get Child Protection Services or the police involved.

Congartulations. You just argued your viewpoint with a pro-life arguement.

Interchange the words man and woman in that last paragraph, and you'll recognize the arguement as an age old pro-life arguement.

Not your strongest argument . Men have a choice to have sex, and could face the choice of their female partner to have a child, if she should so decide. And get child support too. If men don't want that, I repeat, don't get her pregnant.

[Still Growing]

Angela,

Ultimately you are right.

One should always be careful whom they associate and of course sleep with. i used to have a saying that "I wouldn't sleep with someone who I wouldn't marry". That doesn't mean that I would marry them but that they were the caliber of person with whom you can respect.

Having standards goes a long way in staying out of predicaments.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Not your strongest argument . Men have a choice to have sex, and could face the choice of their female partner to have a child, if she should so decide. And get child support too. If men don't want that, I repeat, don't get her pregnant.

Spirit,
You make it sound like when Men have sex its like "caveat emptor". Hey you got her pregnant so its your fault. That makes it sound like the woman is not responsible for her own actions.

So the man had sex and that decision alone now sets a chain of events that gives the woman ultimate control of the decision of whether to have a child?

In today's society, having sex does not have to mean that you must have a child. These are two completely different decisions in the viewpoint of society today.

If we reversed it and said to the woman "Hey if you don't want to support a child then don't let a man get you pregnant". Then it would be the same argument you are making.

I'm not saying that your statement is wrong (because what you are saying is true based upon today's laws) but rather that its not where our focus should be. Our focus should be at the time when the woman finds out she's pregnant. She should approach the man and then they should discuss it as a couple. She should say " I want an abortion, how do you feel about it" or "I want to have a baby how do you feel about it"? She should have the final say however her decision would and should be based partly on what he's saying he will and won't do. If he says "I'm in college and I can't support you" then she should say "wow, am I ready to have a child now with no financial support". She may decide to go ahead and have the baby because of wanting to raise a child and he may decide to drop out of college if he wants to be in the child's life and he will therefore need to help support the baby.

What is the purpose of child support?

According to the gov't its not so it makes the woman's life easier but rather so that the child doesn't get abandoned and become a burden on the State. Thats the purpose of child support.

But is that valid today?

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

...
I definitely think the agreement to have sex does not equate with an agreement to have a child. The argument is that one thing MAY lead to another however thats really the issue here. Does having sex need to mean that it MAY lead to having a baby. Currently it does mean that however I think our culture is a crossroads of whether having sex means that you agree to having a child.

...

True enough.

The point is though, a child may happen because of having sex. The child needs to be supported. Where does the money come from? I say, from the parents. Only if the woman voluntarily states she doesn't want child support, the man need not pay.

I'm not sure culture is changing in this respect.

[James81]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Ooh, bad discussion technique. It's not OK to kill a child. If you refer to abortion, and you're against that, better not get in to a situation your sex partner would decide for it.

Bad parents (M/F) occur everywhere. Hasn't got anything to do with paying child support. If you think a parent is bad for their kid, get Child Protection Services or the police involved.



Not your strongest argument . Men have a choice to have sex, and could face the choice of their female partner to have a child, if she should so decide. And get child support too. If men don't want that, I repeat, don't get her pregnant.

So, basically, you didn't really counter any of my points and just reiterated what you said in what I had quoted.

And I don't think you are getting the point, so let me take your last statement and flip it around:

Women have a choice to have sex, and could face the choice of their body getting pregnant. And have to support that child too. If women don't want that, I repeat, don't get pregnant

I copy/pasted that from your last post and I changed a few words, and suddenly, it's a pro-life arguement. Interesting isn't it?

Interesting that women have no responsibility to bear whatsoever in the matter. There are literally very few consequences to HER choice to have sex. But a man must suck it up and face the consequences of his decision. I really don't see how that is fair.

(Bear in mind, that I am pro-life. So, not only do I believe women shouldn't be having abortions, but men SHOULD be paying child support)

But I'm also a realist, and all I seek is fairness. If you are going to give women an EXTRA choice, then you need to allow the man an extra choice too.

And I say that because let's look at a couple of dynamics here:

Scenario 1: Woman gets pregnant. Man wants to keep the baby. Woman doesn't. Who ultimately gets the choice to abort? The woman.

Scenario 2: Woman gets pregnant. Man wants to abort the baby. Woman wants to keep it. Who ultimately gets the choice to keep it? The woman. And who gets to pay child support for 18 years for a child they didn't want? The man.

Not fair at all.

I think if you are pro-choice and want to be consistent in your viewpoints, then you need to allow the man a choice (Key Point: This choice is ONLY for BEFORE the baby is born. During that time he can decide if he wants it or not, and then go and waive his rights away) too.

A woman should not be told what to do with his body.

A man should not be told what to do with his money (resources).

Right? If we're going to be pro-choice, then let's go all the way. Instead of turning it into a free ride for a woman to not have to take any responsibility for her actions, let's even the score.

Hence, I am pro-life.

And I eagerly await for more of your "pro-life" constructed arguements to rebut what I've said. It's actually comical to me to watch pro-choice people use pro-life arguements in this type of debate.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by James81

So, basically, you didn't really counter any of my points and just reiterated what you said in what I had quoted.

Actually, I did, but somehow I wasn't clear. Oh well.

And I don't think you are getting the point, ...

Always dangerous to presume the other one doesn't understand you.

so let me take your last statement and flip it around:



I copy/pasted that from your last post and I changed a few words, and suddenly, it's a pro-life arguement. Interesting isn't it?

No it isn't. When a man makes a woman pregnant, he has a relatively easy choice to walk away from her and the child. It has happened more often than the other way around. That's why we have a law to provide child support mainly targeted at males.

Rare is the woman who leaves her child. Women aren't wired that way.

So flipping the argument is not a smart thing .

Interesting that women have no responsibility to bear whatsoever in the matter. There are literally very few consequences to HER choice to have sex. But a man must suck it up and face the consequences of his decision. I really don't see how that is fair.

If you don't see it, I can't explain it. My bad.

One thing though. Never did I write or imply women have no responsibility in this. That is your conclusion.

EDIT: I've stated my POV before in ths thread, so I won't repeat it. In a one liner: both parents must provide child support.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

Interesting that women have no responsibility to bear whatsoever in the matter. There are literally very few consequences to HER choice to have sex.

James, you just gave me the biggest laugh in as long as I can remember, and I just saw the movie Bruno, so that's saying quite a lot!

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

What if I had said as an argument to this serious discussion "Women should be more careful about who they spread their legs for".

You wouldn't have said that. From your point of view, it is an irrelevant argument. After all, the woman can always have an abortion or give up a child for adoption, and she is always entitled to get child support.

HOWEVER, you're quite right. From my perspective, I -would- encourage BOTH men and women not to be rash and impulsive in their sexual behaviour. So yes, men SHOULD think twice before they go insert their penis in someone's vagina, AND yes, women SHOULD be careful about who they spread their legs for.