First time I've ever completely despised/felt nervous about our economy

[Marth]

The 900 billion+ dollar mandate's terms are being worked out today. One problem is the senate proposers will not release exact specifics of where that money is going publicly (yes some is going to housing, some is going schools...etc but it's 900 billion & no direct numbers are given..).

The media continuously is continually forcing the idea of our entire economy collapsed/worst in history/we are desperate someone save us, leading to public acceptance of riskier larger 'solutions'. A small group of individuals now have access to near a trillion dollars.

This seems to be some kind of 'you are desperate and need a solution' tactic that puts far too much power into some people that will not be completely specific publicly with 900 billion dollars.

What are your thoughts?

Obama stimulus plan faces changes in Senate - Yahoo! News

[Gabo]

If they had taken the 800 billion already spent, and the 900 billion they're planning to spend,
they could literally have bought about 7 million homes outright.

Now imagine 7 million people getting their homes paid for completely.
Or, 14 million people getting half their home paid for.
Or, 70 million people getting 10% of their home paid off.

There are only around 150 million homes in the US altogether.
With the money we have spent on these bailouts, we could have given $25,000 cash to half the households in the country.

It is utterly ridiculous the amount of money they are spending on these "stimulus" packages.
I would be surprised if half of it ever really reaches the people who could use the help.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by Gabo

Now imagine 7 million people getting their homes paid for completely.
Or, 14 million people getting half their home paid for.
Or, 70 million people getting 10% of their home paid off.

There are only around 150 million homes in the US altogether.
With the money we have spent on these bailouts, we could have given $25,000 cash to half the households in the country..

But what good is a paid-off house if you have no job? The stimulus needs to get moving through the economy.

I may be a seen as a bad guy but I also oppose the government paying off the mortgages of people who got in over their heads. I live within my means. I don't drive a new car every year. I didn't buy a house that's well beyond my means. Why should my tax money be used to give the most financially irresponsible members of our society a free house?


Personally Ive never seen the economy this bad. Unemployment is closer to 15%, not the phony number the government uses. I just got word today more of my friends are being laid off. I am not sure the stimulus package being proposed is the best answer, but we've got to do something.

[Lil Chris]

I personally thought it would be better to give to the people across the board, split it evenly to everyone over 18, people will spend it and get the economy moving. Some would spend it wisely others wouldn't...

I just can't see how 900 million dollars of more debt could help, in the long run...

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by funchy

I may be a seen as a bad guy but I also oppose the government paying off the mortgages of people who got in over their heads. I live within my means. I don't drive a new car every year. I didn't buy a house that's well beyond my means. Why should my tax money be used to give the most financially irresponsible members of our society a free house?

I mostly* agree with you there. My only counter to that is why then would we payoff the mistakes of large corporations who have experts making their decisions? These people have already mishandled money to the point they need the government to bail them out, why hand them more (particularly out of my quickly emptying pocket) -- just so they can still get their 6 figure bonuses ? I am especially baffled as to why we want to help American car companies when they produce an inferior product and refuse to really invest in higher gas-mileage vehicles or alternate fuel.




*I say mostly because there are some people who were subjected to sleazy lending practices. Yes, the argument can be made that they should have researched for themselves. I do agree. However, we have also seen lenders being predatory toward those who are least likely to understand the way mortgages and interest, etc work. I'd like to see more financial education from a young age to help this, but I'd also like to see an end put to sleazy lending.

[Dan.Linehan]

The people don't want this at all.

Just like the public at large never wanted the current war on drugs. Just like the public doesn't support a $500B military budget, or a $10T national debt.

Just like we never consciously chose, as a society, to house more prisoners than any other country on Earth.

This is a crisis being perpetuated by a small group of individuals who are intent on stealing money, with or without public support.

[schola]

If you want to understand what's going on right now, I heartily recommend watching the Crash Course by Chris Martenson. It's the best explanation I've ever seen for what we're facing. Chris Martenson | chapters - The Crash Course - chapters, Crash Course, Economy, Energy, environment, Peak Oil, videos

[Newfort]

The real problem is that the whole world now is finding itself in a wholly American made mess. And only Americans can truly fix it in the short term.

The irony of it all is that the only solution appears to be the very cause of the crisis to begin with--debt.

The options now are: Americans making even further debt for their children and grandchildren to pay off later; or let the entire economy rot, and risk all out anarchy.

Talk about being between a rock and a very hard place.
_______________________
How are The Secret, The Madoff Fraud and The Economic Crisis Related?
The Scourge of our Time: The Demise of Critical Thinking in the Age of "The Secret"

[ABdude]

I will admit that I am not too familiar with the particulars of your country's stimulus package, but there is one clause that has me quite concerned, the 'Buy American' clause.

If I have been reading correctly, it means that any steel/iron that is going to be used for stimulus-funded projects has to come from american producers. We in Canada export a LARGE amount of steel/iron to the US and this protectionism policy might turn this recession into a depression not seen since the 'Great Depression' in the 1930s

What I find even more alarming is that the senate is considering expanding the 'Buy American' clause to include more products/services.

[schola]

This is stimulus??


• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

• $75 million for “smoking cessation activities.”

• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into “green” buildings.

• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

• $1.2 billion for “youth activities,” including youth summer job programs.

• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

• $160 million for “paid volunteers” at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

• $5.5 million for “energy efficiency initiatives” at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administra

More here: What GOP Leaders deem wasteful in Senate stimulus bill - CNN.com

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

A lot of those will create jobs, so maybe that's the justification.

Jobs=Money=More money put back into the economy?

Still, some of them I'd axe, although I like almost all of them better than bailing out Wall Street or auto makers.

[schola]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

A lot of those will create jobs, so maybe that's the justification.

Jobs=Money=More money put back into the economy?

Still, some of them I'd axe, although I like almost all of them better than bailing out Wall Street or auto makers.

Baloney. These politicians are using the guise of "stimulus" to sneak through their pet pork projects. Who's going to pay for all of this?

[bman]

America can get out of debt, if it wants to.


Sell all that hidden and suppressed technology to others.


Not necessarily military.

Or develop a new economy/service based on them, improve the lives of human beings instead of going to war and plundering/killing others.

Do good and be rewarded.

[schola]

Originally Posted by bman

America can get out of debt, if it wants to.

Impossible. If all the debt was paid back there would be no money.
Money As Debt

[dice]

The ideas that the media is spreading scare me mostly because if too many naive people start buying the idea that this is really serious, we COULD blow things out of proportion for ourselves just by thinking it's out of proportion = bascially the law of attraction.

It might seem like a bunch of hogus to you guys, but I honestly believe that if it can work for an individual, it can work for a society.

But is ignorance any better?

[schola]

The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office says that stimulus is harmful over long-haul. What more do you need to know to realize we're being screwed over?

CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

continues: Washington Times - CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by dice

The ideas that the media is spreading scare me mostly because if too many naive people start buying the idea that this is really serious, we COULD blow things out of proportion for ourselves just by thinking it's out of proportion = bascially the law of attraction.

It might seem like a bunch of hogus to you guys, but I honestly believe that if it can work for an individual, it can work for a society.

But is ignorance any better?

I agree. I believe that if we do end up in a depression it will have more to do with people being scared than with the strength of the economy itself. I believe that media has already contributed to the economic problems we have by spreading fear with their doom and gloom reporting.

[schola]

This economy runs on money, not emotions. Fear doesn't have anything to do with it, although positivity can affect how we react to the current crisis. This is a great opportunity to build a better society and fear could ruin our chances for a better future.

But positive thinking won't mitigate the monumental collapse that we're facing. The FACTS are in the video series I posted. It is a fact that the current system is unsustainable and must collapse eventually. By design our economy must continually expand or face collapse.

If by some magnificent stroke of luck the powers that be manage to forestall the depression, they will just push the inevitable a few years off.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by schola

This economy runs on money, not emotions. Fear doesn't have anything to do with it, although positivity can affect how we react to the current crisis. This is a great opportunity to build a better society and fear could ruin our chances for a better future.

But positive thinking won't mitigate the monumental collapse that we're facing. The FACTS are in the video series I posted. It is a fact that the current system is unsustainable and must collapse eventually. By design our economy must continually expand or face collapse.

If by some magnificent stroke of luck the powers that be manage to forestall the depression, they will just push the inevitable a few years off.

I agree that the current economic system is unsustainable. Fear is very important in our current situation, however, as it impacts consumer confidence and therefore spending. Consumer confidence drops, the media reports it (often over blowing the significance), which causes more fear. This is a vicious cycle.

I also agree that a healthy solid economy should not run on emotion. I think it is ridiculous that the economy can be impacted by how the guy down the street feels about the state of the economy. The same applies to politicians or economists. The opinion of people should not have any impact on the health of the economy. As long as the economy is affected by the spending habits of individuals, however, the emotions of individuals has a very real impact on the health of the economy.

[schola]

My point is that emotion isn't affecting the economy the way you think.

What you call people being "afraid" I call people cutting back and saving. They should be saving. The savings rate has become negative in the past few years. The last time that happened was in the middle of the Great Depression. Average household debt is astronomical. But the fact of the matter is that our economy depends on people going deeper and deeper into debt.

You're saying people should start spending money again. Personally, I see nothing virtuous about buying houses and televisions that you can't afford.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Actually, no, I agree with you that people should be saving. In fact, I think that you and I probably agree quite a bit on the economy. I think that overspending is a big part of the problem with our economy overall. As you said, our economy depends on people going into debt, which is obviously a bad thing.

I would like to see us come out of this situation with a new vision of what a healthy economy is, and scrap the spend spend spend mentality that seems to be so prevalent. I would actually love to see a mostly debt free society, although I never expect that to happen.

Where I see fear creating big problems are in areas where people can afford to spend, but are not because of fear. The housing market is one example of that. It was time for a correction in the housing market, but that in itself did not cause the demand to bottom out. There are many people who would normally have bought a house during this period, but are simply afraid to do so. The stock market is another example of how fear is impacting the economy. When the stock market started dropping people panicked and started selling (which drove the market even lower). Many people have stopped contributing to their 401k and are even cashing out their 401k in order to invest in something "safer". I believe that both the housing market and stock market are artificially down right now, primarily due to fear. This is impacting people in other industries (such as construction), which adds to the fear and damages the economy even further.

[schola]

If you accept my proposition that the system must expand continually then the only way to reinflate the housing market is to create a bubble even greater than the last one. That means banks lending even more money to unqualified borrowers, people getting in even deeper over their heads, and construction of even more crappy suburban homes.

Home ownership is already 69%, the highest it's ever been. Ever. Who is going to buy all these extra houses? The savings rate is negative. Where is the money going to come from to buy these houses?

The housing market has a lot further down to go.

[jetpack]

I don't understand why they bail out companies that are bad with money, and increase taxes on people that are good with money and are actually productive. It's like a spoiled dog getting rewarded for being bad.