Affordable housing

[Brutha]

But the nearby neighborhood associations objected and the whole thing got held up in red tape in city hall such that it never materialized.

That's probably a key factor.
Building houses for low income people will reduce the value of other houses in the neighborhood.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Maybe you are right and making cheap housing available just attracts lazy potentially violent people. Industrious people can afford to live in nicer neighborhoods, and so they do. It makes me feel sad though.

can't help people who don't wanna help themselves. Just like post number 2 shows. They were given homes, and they ruined it. How do you help people like that, and should you?

[rei]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

can't help people who don't wanna help themselves. Just like post number 2 shows. They were given homes, and they ruined it. How do you help people like that, and should you?

empowerment and integrative approaches addressing multiple facets of the person at once.

Housing is a complicated issue. Lauxa it used to make me sad too and in a sense it still does. I've also given food to a homeless panhandler and seen that person throw it down as I walked away. Like I said, it's complicated. And sorry to say but not everyone who is without housing wants different circumstances due to their current priorities. Not true for all of course.

And I'm working with a housing program for low/no income populations right now actually.

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

can't help people who don't wanna help themselves. Just like post number 2 shows. They were given homes, and they ruined it. How do you help people like that, and should you?

Post #2? The one by aspiring to clarity? You must mean something different...

Originally Posted by rei

empowerment and integrative approaches addressing multiple facets of the person at once.

Housing is a complicated issue. Lauxa it used to make me sad too and in a sense it still does. I've also given food to a homeless panhandler and seen that person throw it down as I walked away. Like I said, it's complicated. And sorry to say but not everyone who is without housing wants different circumstances due to their current priorities. Not true for all of course.

And I'm working with a housing program for low/no income populations right now actually.

I read your post about how hard that work is and I really admire you for trying it. I hope you'll continue to share your insights.

Maybe not everyone wants housing, but everyone wants a safe place to sleep. I think so, anyways.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by funchy

In the big city near where I grew up the government built low-income people a huge community of affordable housing. Sadly within a few years it was covered in graffiti, had boarded up windows, and wasn't safe to walk. The government kept throwing money at it, fixing up the trashed units and trying to keep police on the streets. Finally it got so bad, the buildings were condemned and the whole project abandoned. Oddly the same propertly was gutted and resold as "luxury condominiums". Today the same buildings in the same neighborhood is exclusive and thriving!?

Poverty isn't just about income but about culture, education, values, family structure, and other factors.

I meant this post. Don't know why I said the second post lol .

[rei]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I read your post about how hard that work is and I really admire you for trying it. I hope you'll continue to share your insights.

1. It's quite difficult to create guidelines to provide assistance for housing that are reasonable and fair and that also prevent fraud or misuse as much as possible.

2. It's easier to help in situations where things suddenly got really bad but were generally doable beforehand. It's much harder when there is a long-standing barrier or barriers to stable housing. Whether those barriers are internal or external.

3. Learned helplessness is a big problem.

4. It's even harder for front line workers to help when there are so many different levels to report to, each with their own redundant red tape requirements. It would be better if records could be either all electronic or all paper.

5. This work (the professional side of it) attracts people who have trouble saying no, and I'm starting to wonder whether that feeds the whole misuse-of-available-resources trend. It's often a situation where heart is valued over intellect and I'm not sure how much discernment is used in helping, taking this with the saying-no issue.

6. It's really hard for someone to rise up and act from a place of power if they have been pushed to the extremes of society. If they feel invisible and uncounted. If they've been told, directly and indirectly, many times, that they don't matter and don't count. Talk about gremlins.

7. This whole issue is so very different when you're directly experiencing its effects, compared to how it is in the abstract or at the level of theory.

Maybe not everyone wants housing, but everyone wants a safe place to sleep. I think so, anyways.

Someone strung out on crack doesn't care about safety. Someone who recently finished a prison sentence may not make it a high priority. Someone who is more focused on acquiring alcohol or other drugs may not make safety a priority.

And those that do, if they live in an urban area, have access to shelter. The chronic homeless population often makes use of local shelters. I'm not sure how big an issue housing is in more rural areas. I live in a generally rural region and housing has only been discussed as an issue in more populated areas. I would wager a guess that more rural areas have tighter-knit communities, so if someone who stayed in a rural area needed a roof over their head, a friend or family member or something of that nature would probably take them in. And if no one would, they would likely end up in the closest urban setting.


ETA: Met a recently-released inmate today who wanted some housing-related help. No official contract to back up his current housing status, just a letter from the landlord who he's also related to. He went to prison for forgery. And he got really mad when I explained that our funding source would demand more paperwork for us to be able to help him. Speaking to his probation officer to advocate on his behalf was entirely out of the question, in his estimation, and of course I was willing to honor that. His right to accept the various options or not.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

can't help people who don't wanna help themselves. Just like post number 2 shows. They were given homes, and they ruined it. How do you help people like that, and should you?

I'm not from the states, but we have ghettos here too, and I think that when you say you "can't help people who don't want to help themselves", it might be more helpful to understand that many of them do want to help themselves, but they feel helpless and hopeless about their situation.

It's a downward spiral for many people, not all of course, and there are many who are happy to live a life of crime and not ever seek a way out, but I think it's worth mentioning that people who feel helpless about their situation will often not reach out for help with it. And as rei rightly stated, once you have been put down often enough and made to feel like you will never escape your lot, it's very hard to overcome that and actually do it.

I'm not sure how Ice-T managed? Maybe he got lucky with a record dealer or something back when he was selling drugs and doing crime in Compton?

[rei]

And one more thing. It does feel really wonderful when I get to say yes to someone who truly needs the help and will benefit from it in a way that also benefits the rest of us. It's doubly difficult when I have to say no to someone with genuine need because of the paperwork requirements. It's really frustrating that so many people without the genuine need try to get that help. It's also frustrating that things have to be really dire for our program to help even as I also understand this is one of the failsafes against misuse.

But it's absolutely fantastically uplifting when I get to help someone who really needs it. It's also fascinating to be in this role without the "rescuer" dynamic. To help from a healthy place instead of a compulsive place.

[NDN Scholar]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Industrious people can afford to live in nicer neighborhoods, and so they do.

If that was true, then I wouldn't have spent most of my life living in a f*cking slum.

Originally Posted by eleucidate

It's a downward spiral for many people, not all of course, and there are many who are happy to live a life of crime and not ever seek a way out, but I think it's worth mentioning that people who feel helpless about their situation will often not reach out for help with it. And as rei rightly stated, once you have been put down often enough and made to feel like you will never escape your lot, it's very hard to overcome that and actually do it.

I love you.

But there's a lot of blind judgement and self-righteousness in this thread. It's making me sick.

[rei]

Originally Posted by NDN Scholar

But there's a lot of blind judgement and self-righteousness in this thread. It's making me sick.

I wonder if you're lumping my posts in that statement? What makes me sick is how many people try to misuse American public assistance. (I really don't even like saying that though!! Yuck.) Honestly, I thought - before I saw it for myself - that this misuse stuff was a bunch of neocon malarky. It makes me sad to see it has actually been happening, especially since I'm more of a liberal socialist or even pure communist type of person.

None of this is to say it always happens this way or even that a majority of people without their own idea of ideal housing are working from this angle. I don't see the majority so I don't know that. I've just been trying to come to terms with the alarming number of people in my own neck of the woods who are not in the sort of dire straits that are being experienced by the folks my program is set up to help. There's some systemic level thing happening there, maybe sociocultural or something, but it's been really disappointing for me to see.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

You hit it right on the nose. It will happen. You create a place like that, and it will turn into a cesspool in no time. If you want cheap housing, go to Detroit. Go live in a trailer park. There is an abundance of cheap housing in this country, and if you look at Detroit, people don't even wanna live there! You can buy a house there for a couple grand. Hell, look at this!
Mayor Pushing Police To Live In Detroit « CBS Detroit

No auto business=no jobs=everyone leaves=no other jobs=houses worth nothing="cesspool"=no one wants to live there. Oversimplification, I know, but it's applies to a good chunk of it. My immediate family actually got out of mid-Michigan just in time, and we saw it first hand.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by NDN Scholar

If that was true, then I wouldn't have spent most of my life living in a f*cking slum.



I love you.

But there's a lot of blind judgement and self-righteousness in this thread. It's making me sick.

How so? I thought it was pretty free from both those things. Sorry you feel sick though...

I was trying to be more understanding of the situation, and also show empathy. Sorry if you think I failed in that respect. What part of what I said did you find to be blind judgement and self-righteous?

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

No auto business=no jobs=everyone leaves=no other jobs=houses worth nothing="cesspool"=no one wants to live there. Oversimplification, I know, but it's applies to a good chunk of it. My immediate family actually got out of mid-Michigan just in time, and we saw it first hand.

see, so it's not just affordable housing that people need .

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by NDN Scholar

If that was true, then I wouldn't have spent most of my life living in a f*cking slum.



I love you.

But there's a lot of blind judgement and self-righteousness in this thread. It's making me sick.

I'm sorry if my posts sound judgmental or self-righteous to you. I am only seeking understanding, doing my best to make sense of these social issues based on my limited experience of the world. I value your input; it sounds like you have been much more directly affected by these issues than I have.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by NDN Scholar

What about the possibility of cheap-housing neighbourhoods turning into urban ghettoes? It happens quite a bit. There's a lot of cheap houses around here, but they're all in the "hood." Making that sort of area your home is an awful, awful life.

PS: I'm not pretending I know anything about the economics of housing, but I just thought I'd throw my thoughts out there. Peace.

I think this is a big part of the answer.

What qualifies as a respectable home in say Kenya would be razed by the authorities in most urban/suburban US jurisdictions as substandard housing. The reason for those housing ordinances is to prevent ghettos from forming.

Incidentally, historically I believe the US used to have lots of low income housing, mostly "on the wrong side of the tracks" so to speak - shotgun shacks and the like that people lived (or even squatted) in with very minimal facilities. my understanding is that current public housing, such as it is, was created to change that.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I'm sorry if my posts sound judgmental or self-righteous to you. I am only seeking understanding, doing my best to make sense of these social issues based on my limited experience of the world. I value your input; it sounds like you have been much more directly affected by these issues than I have.

I thought he was aiming that comment at me, since it was under my quote?

[NDN Scholar]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I was trying to be more understanding of the situation, and also show empathy. Sorry if you think I failed in that respect. What part of what I said did you find to be blind judgement and self-righteous?

That comment wasn't aimed at you, sister.

By the way, I apologize to all if I was being a bit crabby. I'm sensitive to certain issues and, when combined with a lack of sleep, I become... unpredictable.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by NDN Scholar

That comment wasn't aimed at you, sister.

By the way, I apologize to all if I was being a bit crabby. I'm sensitive to certain issues and, when combined with a lack of sleep, I become... unpredictable.

Oh, ok. I guess the fact that you wrote it underneath my quote may have had something to do with why I thought it was!

It's understandable that you be a bit sensitive to this particular issue. After all, we are all outsiders looking in, and for you it's daily life, so I'm sure you have a pretty unique perspective on the whole situation.

[beast]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Oh, ok. I guess the fact that you wrote it underneath my quote may have had something to do with why I thought it was!

I thought it was pretty immediately clear that he was praising your words, but took the time to note that he found some other people's statements to be problematic.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by beast

I thought it was pretty immediately clear that he was praising your words, but took the time to note that he found some other people's statements to be problematic.

Yes, I think I may have taken the word 'thread' and made it to mean 'post', and since it was under my quote I kinda thought that he was talking about my post. So yeah, It's much clearer now.