How are elections in USA now?

[ar81]

In the past we used to have lots of theatrics in politics in my country. Politicians pretending to be defenders of values, or one attacking another with words in a "good vs evil confrontation". It was plagued with subliminal propaganda, and the whole result was a show.

Today we know that no politician can be trusted, that we want projects not a speech on "good vs evil". In my country now it looks more like citizens know that they are shareholders and president is a CEO that needs to deliver results instead of wasting his time in games of power.

I was just wondering how it works in USA. Is it a theatrical show nowadays?

[Brutha]

I think the interesting thing is that people like McCain and Palin really do believe that they are defenders of the good.
Obama also believes that he speaks for the good.

That makes those people effective at persuading others. It's very postmodern. What counts isn't some form of objective Truth but simply sticking to a powerful narrative in ones principles.

I think McCains approach to telling the truth is the "Racical Honesty" one. It's about simply saying what he thinks and drawing emotionally from his core.
The problem is that you need long careful plan to change things to the good and more than simply principles.
Once a principle gets defended people like McCain unfortunatly begin to lie. Even Karl Rove admits that McCain is lying.

The irony is that possible to speak deeply from your heart about your principles and lie at the same time.
The audience notices that you speak from your heart and you win in our postmodern world.

[Gabo]

Yes, it is all theatrics.

Both candidates have nearly identical, status quo positions on all the important topics - war, empire, fiscal policy, monetary policy, and civil liberties.

The media focuses on their petty differences, and sensationalizes their actions while entirely disregarding their actual political positions (which are identical).


The only chance for real change in America is to vote for a third party.

[Still Growing]

ar81,
Brutha said it very well. Also I'd like to add that Obama's campaign is also lying. When I speak to people from most countries its kind of a given that politicians lie or manipulate the facts lets say. People in most European countries have higher expectations. This stems from your gov'ts defensiveness on how much tax dollars they collect.

In socialistic countries the subconscience collective view is one that the tax payer is owed for all that they pay.

Its popular nowadays to criticize everything about the US. Most European countries have a general lack of respect for the American form of gov't. The basic fundamentals or structure of the US gov't is great but the problem IMO is that our gov't has been siezed by special interests.

IMO there are trap doors in disquise quietly built in to the US system that enables some to play the US gov't like marionettes. The include a 2 party system, think tanks, lobbists, and campaign finance. If these things were overhauled I think we'd be doing a lot better.

Most Americans feel that as flawed as our system is that at least the gov't isn't as bloated as many European countries. Although I have respect for these socialistic countries its the biggest fear for many Americans.

[Brutha]

Also I'd like to add that Obama's campaign is also lying.

Where do you think Obama is lying?

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Where do you think Obama is lying?

As you are aware both sides are acusing the other of half truths (lying). I'll let you dig this up yourself and you can be the judge.

So you think Obama's side is taking the high road and keeping it honest with no misrepresentation of the truth? Is this what you are saying?

They both are running pretty shady campaigns and I have seen purposeful misrepresentations from both sides that I knew where false.

[Brutha]

There a difference between drawing something a bit out of context and flat out lying.
There also a difference between promising things that you don't delivier after the election and flat out lying.

The McCain/Palin campain flat out lies.
The reaction from the McCain campain for being called out for a lie in the Campbell Brown - Tucker Bounds interview is simply an insult to reason itself.

Bending the truth a bit little here and there is always part of politics. The things that the McCain campain does go well over the line.
It's not something I would say about conversatives in Germany.

They both are running pretty shady campaigns and I have seen purposeful misrepresentations from both sides that I knew where false.

You should remember that the Obama campain isn't responsible for everything that some liberal somewhere says.

And it matters whether something comes directly from the campain or whether someone else. I attribute to the McCain campain for example no guilt for the "Obama is a secret Muslim"-meme.

[Still Growing]

Brutha,
Maybe McCain is worse. This could be but you say Obama does not lie. I'm chuckling here. I'm siding with Obama on this election but I'd be lying if I said Obama was 100% truthful.

Some say Obama lies too: snopes.com: Obama's 50 Lies / Obama Not Exactly

Even if all 50 are not valid it only takes one.

Obama lies about McCain, again.

Obama said that McCain cannot even google nor send email however the reason he doesn't use a computer is due to a war wound. He has staff that type and research for him. Is it a lie or did Obama just make a mistake?

The politics in this election are in the gutter and both sides are dishing it out.

They both lie Brutha. C'mon lets keep it real.

[Brutha]

Some say Obama lies too: snopes.com: Obama's 50 Lies / Obama Not Exactly

That Snopes article debunks the claim that Obama lied as far as I see. If there are some not debunked lies in there please point to them.

Obama said that McCain cannot even google nor send email however the reason he doesn't use a computer is due to a war wound. He has staff that type and research for him. Is it a lie or did Obama just make a mistake?

There an embarrising interview with McCain where he is asked whether he uses Windows or Mac he answers "neither".
1. The fact that McCain has a war wound doesn't in any way make the statement that he doesn't use a computer false.
2. The narrative of the story is right. He lives in a generation that doesn't get the internet and computers.
That's something that matters when it comes issues like software patents and other computer issues.

Electing a president is about getting the person who is most skilled in the job. If someone disability hinders them from doing a job that's a problem.

Lastly you can use a computer through voice recognition software.

1. Obama's not aware that Iran arms both, but it was a McCain mis-statement that McCain corrected immediately. Is that what he's going to do now? Gotcha! "He called his friend 'Joe' instead of 'John.' Are we going to elect a president that can't remember the names of his friends?"

Okay, the author admits that McCain made a missatement. You can ask whether it fair to repeat a misstatement multiple times but that are the rules of the game.
Everything you say can be used against you.
Whether you think that McCain misstatement matter is a question of judgement but not one of fact.

2. The "endless war" thing is a lie. See here.

Then you call the statement that McCain supports a 100 year occupation of Iraq a lie.
Because of the techniquallity that while McCain supports having a base for 100 years in Iraq the word occupation implies that it's not wanted by the citizens and McCain wants to get it supported by Iraqi people.
I think that argument is false and even if it were true that a small techniquality.

The main claim and the narrative is that McCain wants to be in Iraq for the next 100 years and that's right.

3. Try to associate McCain and Bush.

What's a lie about wanting to associate McCain with Bush?
That a totally different thing than the kind of lies McCain tells.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

Even if all 50 are not valid it only takes one.

What? Not really.

McCain is blatantly lying over and over again. Pathologically almost.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

Obama said that McCain cannot even google nor send email however the reason he doesn't use a computer is due to a war wound.

Since when was this because of a war wound?

McCain admitted to being a computer illiterate, his own words.

I'm curious what form of torture makes someone say they're computer illiterate.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

They both lie Brutha. C'mon lets keep it real.

Not really -- I can post dozens of McCain's lies, blatant ones that he just keeps repeating even after they have been debunked. I have yet to see one from Obama.

Doesn't keeping it real, mean, well, you know, keeping it real?


The reality is that McCain has lied a Hell of a lot, and continues to do so.

And Obama hasn't.

[Brutha]

Even a Republican governour calls a lie of McCain/Palin insulting to the American people.

That a lot worse than the way Bush lied. It's not simply bending the truth a bit.
It's bending it in a way that's an insult to reason.
As Krugman wrote, Bush lied artfully.

McCain thinks that they can get away with straightforward lying.
I'm also not opposing the lying merly on the basis that it's politically incorrect but because having a firm grip of reality is vital for a president to be effective in office.

This election isn't between conversatism and liberalism but between populism and reason.

[Still Growing]

You may be right. I'm no McCain fan but I find it hard to believe Obama hasn't lied.

I'm willing to believe it and I'd just have to do more research.

I definitely know McCain has lied.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Brutha

This election isn't between conversatism and liberalism but between populism and reason.

Exactly. That's the most accurate way I've heard it described so far.

It cracks me up that I get called liberal when all I really want is a strong economy and equal rights.

Equal rights and good economic policies are not liberal issues. They just take the most basic of reasoning to understand why they matter.

I wish this was Obama versus Ron Paul, I'd have no worries.

Paul has said that federal officials changing the definition of marriage is "an act of social engineering profoundly hostile to liberty." Paul stated, "Americans understandably fear that if gay marriage is legalized in one state, all other states will be forced to accept such marriages." He says that in a best case scenario, governments would enforce contracts and grant divorces but otherwise have no say in marriage. Paul has also stated he doesn't want to interfere in the free association of two individuals in a social, sexual, and religious sense. Additionally, when asked if he was supportive of gay marriage Paul responded "I am supportive of all voluntary associations and people can call it whatever they want."